OT splainin'

Thanks, Ragmop, for finding all those links. I knew I had seen some articles
on the connection between prayer and healing and was going to do a search,
but I had to leave for a meeting and didn't have time. You found some good
ones!

Louise in Iowa
" Ellison" wrote in message
...
Howdy!
I neither know for a fact nor worry about whether
it's scientifically proved that prayer increases healing.
However, there are some reputable groups researching this issue:
http://www.ahsc.arizona.edu/opa/news/may03/prayer.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/...ain68441.shtml


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Downt...emotehealing_f
eature.html

http://www.healingtherapies.info/prayer_and_healing.htm

http://www.integral-inquiry.com/docs/649/empirical.pdf

http://www.wholistichealingresearch....ch/Studies.htm

http://spot.colorado.edu/~vstenger/RelSci/4.Dossey

and so on, and so on.
As a scientist yourself, you know that some people will study anything.
In this case, it's more than just vague theory and opinion. Many of
these
studies include clinical tests, analyzing data, testing, researching, and
studying
the results.
As you yourself have stated many time that
you're not "a believer" in this area. I accept that. g
However, for those who are, keep up the good work. Often it's Faith
that produces Action. ;-)
Ragmop/Sandy--I'm a little addicted to on-line search engines VBG


"Dr. Quilter" wrote in message
...
I am sorry, but I have to say something about this. I have heard of
this, and I'd really like to know if there was a statistical
significance between the improvment of people that were prayed for and
those what were not. I truly don't believe in this!!! BTW, I think that
if we want to help other people, actions are much more effective!

Nell Reynolds wrote:
Three or four years ago I read about some big research group that
decided to
research the efficacy of prayers. Yeah, right, I thought. But this
research group asked people and groups all over the world to pray to
their
own god(s) in their own way to help various people. They enlisted
Christian
preachers of all denominations to ask for prayers from the pulpit,
nuns
and
monks from various convents and monasteries, Buddhist temples, Muslim
religious leaders, rabbis, and people from religions I had never heard
of.
The article said they conducted this in the standard double-blind
method,
different religions for various people not of their faith and in their
faith, and a control group that got no prayer at all. No names were
included, just requests for "a person (no gender or age) in (location)
suffering from (affliction)." In every case, from every source of
prayer,
the target of the prayers reported improvement that was confirmed by
diagnosis.
Prayer does help.

Nell in Austin

--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens

The question of the day is - and this is probably one that none of us can
answer - does the prayer increase the patients chances of survival because
of divine intervention or just because the patient BELIEVES that he has a
better chance of survival?

We all have different beliefs on this one (and I'd be happy to compare notes
in heaven later on, hopefully - I have no guarantees that I won't be going
in the other direction, but I'm trying to be good grin) and I am quite
willing to listen to everyone's beliefs - the world would be BORING if we
all believed the same thing!!!! As long as beliefs are not dictated to me,
I'll listen.

I believe that God is a busy being - very busy (hopefully creating new
worlds and beings for us to visit someday) - and doesn't always give his
full attention to the needs of every single individual. Like the song says
"Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers." I think that he
intervenes from time to time (Way to go Mo!), but for the most part, we are
on our own.

I also believe that our minds are much more powerful than we give them
credit for and are capable of more than we do in a normal day. Believing
that we will survive is a powerful medicine. Never underestimate yourself!

Like I said, I know that my beliefs won't be shared by everyone and I don't
expect them to be - I respect your beliefs too!

Thanks, Shelly and others, for the chance to THINK about something -
thinking is good.
--
Teresa in Colorado

--
"Shelly" glass angel at charter dot net wrote in message
...
The government has funded studies, as well as many others. Doctors from
Johns Hopkin have participated in studies, just to name one. This is
nothing
new on the medical front. I know this has been going on since at least the
early 80's. We had a doctor here that would not operate without he prayed
for the patient first and for the outcome of the surgery and usually had
the
patient pray with him. He was a very good doctor. I am not a religious
person but will pray for anyone that asks. If nothing else, it sure can't
hurt. Neither person, the one doing the praying, or the one being prayed
for. It may only be that is has a placebo affect, if that's so, if it
works,
why not use it. It's very cheap.........FREE, and makes many people feel
good! Here are just a few of the links I found on just one search.
Shelly


http://www.mercola.com/2000/nov/19/prayer_health.htm

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msciprayer.html

http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/...5/us/us.1.html

http://www.awesomepower.net/prayerstudies.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2000/religion...5/c01-9322.htm

http://www.holistic-online.com/Praye...ayer_proof.htm

"Dr. Quilter" wrote in message
...
Who conducted these studies? I don't have any problem with you
personally Shelly, and no reason not to believe what you are saying, but
just because you tell me it is a proven fact doesn't mean I have to
automatically take it as such, do you agree?

I am just very skeptical. I am sure that people that pray want to
believe that they are doing something good for the person they are
praying for, but I'd like to see some evidence, not just statements like
that.

Shelly wrote:

It's a proven fact! Studies have shown that if you pray before
surgery,
healing time is much faster and you have a better turn out altogether
with
the surgery and recovery.
Shelly
"Dr. Quilter" wrote in message
...

I am sorry, but I have to say something about this. I have heard of
this, and I'd really like to know if there was a statistical
significance between the improvment of people that were prayed for and
those what were not. I truly don't believe in this!!! BTW, I think
that
if we want to help other people, actions are much more effective!

Nell Reynolds wrote:

Three or four years ago I read about some big research group that

decided to

research the efficacy of prayers. Yeah, right, I thought. But this
research group asked people and groups all over the world to pray to

their

own god(s) in their own way to help various people. They enlisted

Christian

preachers of all denominations to ask for prayers from the pulpit,
nuns

and

monks from various convents and monasteries, Buddhist temples, Muslim
religious leaders, rabbis, and people from religions I had never
heard

of.

The article said they conducted this in the standard double-blind

method,

different religions for various people not of their faith and in
their
faith, and a control group that got no prayer at all. No names were
included, just requests for "a person (no gender or age) in
(location)
suffering from (affliction)." In every case, from every source of

prayer,

the target of the prayers reported improvement that was confirmed by
diagnosis.
Prayer does help.

Nell in Austin

" Ellison" wrote in message
...


Howdy!
Welcome home, RZ!

SHE'S BAAACK!!

Roberta & I "did" Fort Worth lightly the other day,
finished w/ a glass of cold tea and a lonnnnng talk.
Met Roberta's lovely older daughter;
she does quilt shops, too. g
Now let's talk Roberta into Houston 20-0-4 !

Ragmop/Sandy--leaving the charming thoughts from the original post


"Roberta Zollner" wrote in message
...


Glad you're mending!
No need to thank us, really. Remember we're a network by our own

volition.


What affects you affects me, both the good stuff and the bad. And
that
quote-I-can't-remember about how shared joy multiplies, while
shared

trouble


reduces? It's perfectly true. We bask in the light of our friends,
even

the


cyber-light. I know for a fact that it's not even necessary to tell
you

my


troubles to feel a calming presence.
Reading the ng every day keeps all of you in my thoughts, just as I
am

sure


to be in all of yours. Thanks!
Roberta in D

"Diana Curtis" wrote in
message
et...


Im going to do a quick explanation with no gory details about my

operation


so everyone knows that I didnt get sent through a wringer. I had
the

type


of


gall bladder removal they used to do, and still do sometimes,
instead

of


the


easier to recover from laparoscopic type they prefer to do. So,

instead


of


a


set of tiny cuts I have a larger one, stapled shut, and two drain

sites.


The


other part of the operation was a strange one where they ran a
camera

and


other gizmos to the site of the stones via the mouth and got some
out

of


the


ducts. The reason my gall bladder needed this more invasive set
of
procedures was simply that there were so many stones and because
they

were


large. Coctail onion size they said.
While in the hospital I thought about what might and could happen

while


in


surgery. I guess its inevitable to face ones own mortality,
especially

when


we know we would leave precious little ones behind, but when I
read

the


messages Mike printed and brought in from all of you I realized
two

things.


Many of you had lived through these procedures and are happy for

having


done


so. Second, I was not going to entertain the notion of leaving.
Dying

was


not an option. I learned too that love can float around me and
cradle

me


in


times of fear. I felt very little. I dont know, or care what diety
or

enti


ty


you sent your prayers towards. I still feel them. They help me
heal,

because


a body cant help but heal better when it feels happy, valued and

loved.


hmm...people have accused me of being effusive. Ill add maudlin to

that


list. Its your own problem if it seems over the top. In fact.. let
me

know


if its over the top and Ill privately email you with MORE!
buwahahahahahaha!!!
hey, I dont LIKE whats happened to me... it hurts, but dang, you
guys

know


how to do that love thing so nicely.
My individual thanks will come as I have time and energy. I have a
lot

of


them to do. I will do them with joy. Its so odd to feel so
wonderfully
happy.
my love to you
Diana
I should probably let this sit overnight to edit later when Im not
so

high..


but.. i dont know.. is there a reason why I should not be this
open

with


my


feelings?
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44




--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/03



--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/03

Anytime Teresa! I believe in, what I believe and no one can change that but
me. I've had too many people in my day to try and force their beliefs on me.
It didn't work then, and it won't work now. lol Many have tried and none
succeeded.
Shelly
"Teresa in Colorado" wrote in message
nk.net...
The question of the day is - and this is probably one that none of us can
answer - does the prayer increase the patients chances of survival because
of divine intervention or just because the patient BELIEVES that he has a
better chance of survival?

We all have different beliefs on this one (and I'd be happy to compare
notes
in heaven later on, hopefully - I have no guarantees that I won't be going
in the other direction, but I'm trying to be good grin) and I am quite
willing to listen to everyone's beliefs - the world would be BORING if we
all believed the same thing!!!! As long as beliefs are not dictated to
me,
I'll listen.

I believe that God is a busy being - very busy (hopefully creating new
worlds and beings for us to visit someday) - and doesn't always give his
full attention to the needs of every single individual. Like the song
says
"Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers." I think that he
intervenes from time to time (Way to go Mo!), but for the most part, we
are
on our own.

I also believe that our minds are much more powerful than we give them
credit for and are capable of more than we do in a normal day. Believing
that we will survive is a powerful medicine. Never underestimate
yourself!

Like I said, I know that my beliefs won't be shared by everyone and I
don't
expect them to be - I respect your beliefs too!

Thanks, Shelly and others, for the chance to THINK about something -
thinking is good.
--
Teresa in Colorado

--
"Shelly" glass angel at charter dot net wrote in message
...
The government has funded studies, as well as many others. Doctors from
Johns Hopkin have participated in studies, just to name one. This is
nothing
new on the medical front. I know this has been going on since at least
the
early 80's. We had a doctor here that would not operate without he
prayed
for the patient first and for the outcome of the surgery and usually had
the
patient pray with him. He was a very good doctor. I am not a religious
person but will pray for anyone that asks. If nothing else, it sure
can't
hurt. Neither person, the one doing the praying, or the one being prayed
for. It may only be that is has a placebo affect, if that's so, if it
works,
why not use it. It's very cheap.........FREE, and makes many people feel
good! Here are just a few of the links I found on just one search.
Shelly


http://www.mercola.com/2000/nov/19/prayer_health.htm

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msciprayer.html

http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/...5/us/us.1.html

http://www.awesomepower.net/prayerstudies.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2000/religion...5/c01-9322.htm

http://www.holistic-online.com/Praye...ayer_proof.htm

"Dr. Quilter" wrote in message
...
Who conducted these studies? I don't have any problem with you
personally Shelly, and no reason not to believe what you are saying,
but
just because you tell me it is a proven fact doesn't mean I have to
automatically take it as such, do you agree?

I am just very skeptical. I am sure that people that pray want to
believe that they are doing something good for the person they are
praying for, but I'd like to see some evidence, not just statements
like
that.

Shelly wrote:

It's a proven fact! Studies have shown that if you pray before
surgery,
healing time is much faster and you have a better turn out
altogether
with
the surgery and recovery.
Shelly
"Dr. Quilter" wrote in message
...

I am sorry, but I have to say something about this. I have heard of
this, and I'd really like to know if there was a statistical
significance between the improvment of people that were prayed for
and
those what were not. I truly don't believe in this!!! BTW, I think
that
if we want to help other people, actions are much more effective!

Nell Reynolds wrote:

Three or four years ago I read about some big research group that

decided to

research the efficacy of prayers. Yeah, right, I thought. But
this
research group asked people and groups all over the world to pray
to

their

own god(s) in their own way to help various people. They enlisted

Christian

preachers of all denominations to ask for prayers from the pulpit,
nuns

and

monks from various convents and monasteries, Buddhist temples,
Muslim
religious leaders, rabbis, and people from religions I had never
heard

of.

The article said they conducted this in the standard double-blind

method,

different religions for various people not of their faith and in
their
faith, and a control group that got no prayer at all. No names
were
included, just requests for "a person (no gender or age) in
(location)
suffering from (affliction)." In every case, from every source of

prayer,

the target of the prayers reported improvement that was confirmed
by
diagnosis.
Prayer does help.

Nell in Austin

" Ellison" wrote in message
...


Howdy!
Welcome home, RZ!

SHE'S BAAACK!!

Roberta & I "did" Fort Worth lightly the other day,
finished w/ a glass of cold tea and a lonnnnng talk.
Met Roberta's lovely older daughter;
she does quilt shops, too. g
Now let's talk Roberta into Houston 20-0-4 !

Ragmop/Sandy--leaving the charming thoughts from the original post


"Roberta Zollner" wrote in message
...


Glad you're mending!
No need to thank us, really. Remember we're a network by our own

volition.


What affects you affects me, both the good stuff and the bad. And
that
quote-I-can't-remember about how shared joy multiplies, while
shared

trouble


reduces? It's perfectly true. We bask in the light of our
friends,
even

the


cyber-light. I know for a fact that it's not even necessary to
tell
you

my


troubles to feel a calming presence.
Reading the ng every day keeps all of you in my thoughts, just as
I
am

sure


to be in all of yours. Thanks!
Roberta in D

"Diana Curtis" wrote in
message
et...


Im going to do a quick explanation with no gory details about my

operation


so everyone knows that I didnt get sent through a wringer. I had
the

type


of


gall bladder removal they used to do, and still do sometimes,
instead

of


the


easier to recover from laparoscopic type they prefer to do. So,

instead


of


a


set of tiny cuts I have a larger one, stapled shut, and two
drain

sites.


The


other part of the operation was a strange one where they ran a
camera

and


other gizmos to the site of the stones via the mouth and got
some
out

of


the


ducts. The reason my gall bladder needed this more invasive set
of
procedures was simply that there were so many stones and because
they

were


large. Coctail onion size they said.
While in the hospital I thought about what might and could
happen

while


in


surgery. I guess its inevitable to face ones own mortality,
especially

when


we know we would leave precious little ones behind, but when I
read

the


messages Mike printed and brought in from all of you I realized
two

things.


Many of you had lived through these procedures and are happy for

having


done


so. Second, I was not going to entertain the notion of leaving.
Dying

was


not an option. I learned too that love can float around me and
cradle

me


in


times of fear. I felt very little. I dont know, or care what
diety
or

enti


ty


you sent your prayers towards. I still feel them. They help me
heal,

because


a body cant help but heal better when it feels happy, valued and

loved.


hmm...people have accused me of being effusive. Ill add maudlin
to

that


list. Its your own problem if it seems over the top. In fact..
let
me

know


if its over the top and Ill privately email you with MORE!
buwahahahahahaha!!!
hey, I dont LIKE whats happened to me... it hurts, but dang, you
guys

know


how to do that love thing so nicely.
My individual thanks will come as I have time and energy. I have
a
lot

of


them to do. I will do them with joy. Its so odd to feel so
wonderfully
happy.
my love to you
Diana
I should probably let this sit overnight to edit later when Im
not
so

high..


but.. i dont know.. is there a reason why I should not be this
open

with


my


feelings?
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44




--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/03



--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/03






---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/03

That's interesting Teresa. I often think about that song. I just today
commented about the little leaguers world series kids praying to win.
I told DD God is a lot too busy to fix little league games. Now thanking
God for getting you there but prayer/begging can seem awful petty
sometimes.
I think we need to pray for more help from God to get through what he
intends us to
go through than to change his plans to our favor. Being raised Quaker
then
Catholic by parents who had beliefs are different than almost anyone
might
be an excuse for my wacky thinking. This can be a touchy subject but it
is
interesting to hear other folks beliefs.
Taria

Teresa in Colorado wrote:

The question of the day is - and this is probably one that none of us can
answer - does the prayer increase the patients chances of survival because
of divine intervention or just because the patient BELIEVES that he has a
better chance of survival?

We all have different beliefs on this one (and I'd be happy to compare notes
in heaven later on, hopefully - I have no guarantees that I won't be going
in the other direction, but I'm trying to be good grin) and I am quite
willing to listen to everyone's beliefs - the world would be BORING if we
all believed the same thing!!!! As long as beliefs are not dictated to me,
I'll listen.

I believe that God is a busy being - very busy (hopefully creating new
worlds and beings for us to visit someday) - and doesn't always give his
full attention to the needs of every single individual. Like the song says
"Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers." I think that he
intervenes from time to time (Way to go Mo!), but for the most part, we are
on our own.

I also believe that our minds are much more powerful than we give them
credit for and are capable of more than we do in a normal day. Believing
that we will survive is a powerful medicine. Never underestimate yourself!

Like I said, I know that my beliefs won't be shared by everyone and I don't
expect them to be - I respect your beliefs too!

Thanks, Shelly and others, for the chance to THINK about something -
thinking is good.
--
Teresa in Colorado

--
"Shelly" glass angel at charter dot net wrote in message
...
The government has funded studies, as well as many others. Doctors from
Johns Hopkin have participated in studies, just to name one. This is
nothing
new on the medical front. I know this has been going on since at least the
early 80's. We had a doctor here that would not operate without he prayed
for the patient first and for the outcome of the surgery and usually had
the
patient pray with him. He was a very good doctor. I am not a religious
person but will pray for anyone that asks. If nothing else, it sure can't
hurt. Neither person, the one doing the praying, or the one being prayed
for. It may only be that is has a placebo affect, if that's so, if it
works,
why not use it. It's very cheap.........FREE, and makes many people feel
good! Here are just a few of the links I found on just one search.
Shelly


http://www.mercola.com/2000/nov/19/prayer_health.htm

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msciprayer.html

http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/...5/us/us.1.html

http://www.awesomepower.net/prayerstudies.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2000/religion...5/c01-9322.htm

http://www.holistic-online.com/Praye...ayer_proof.htm

"Dr. Quilter" wrote in message
...
Who conducted these studies? I don't have any problem with you
personally Shelly, and no reason not to believe what you are saying, but
just because you tell me it is a proven fact doesn't mean I have to
automatically take it as such, do you agree?

I am just very skeptical. I am sure that people that pray want to
believe that they are doing something good for the person they are
praying for, but I'd like to see some evidence, not just statements like
that.

Shelly wrote:

It's a proven fact! Studies have shown that if you pray before
surgery,
healing time is much faster and you have a better turn out altogether
with
the surgery and recovery.
Shelly
"Dr. Quilter" wrote in message
...

I am sorry, but I have to say something about this. I have heard of
this, and I'd really like to know if there was a statistical
significance between the improvment of people that were prayed for and
those what were not. I truly don't believe in this!!! BTW, I think
that
if we want to help other people, actions are much more effective!

Nell Reynolds wrote:

Three or four years ago I read about some big research group that

decided to

research the efficacy of prayers. Yeah, right, I thought. But this
research group asked people and groups all over the world to pray to

their

own god(s) in their own way to help various people. They enlisted

Christian

preachers of all denominations to ask for prayers from the pulpit,
nuns

and

monks from various convents and monasteries, Buddhist temples, Muslim
religious leaders, rabbis, and people from religions I had never
heard

of.

The article said they conducted this in the standard double-blind

method,

different religions for various people not of their faith and in
their
faith, and a control group that got no prayer at all. No names were
included, just requests for "a person (no gender or age) in
(location)
suffering from (affliction)." In every case, from every source of

prayer,

the target of the prayers reported improvement that was confirmed by
diagnosis.
Prayer does help.

Nell in Austin

" Ellison" wrote in message
...


Howdy!
Welcome home, RZ!

SHE'S BAAACK!!

Roberta & I "did" Fort Worth lightly the other day,
finished w/ a glass of cold tea and a lonnnnng talk.
Met Roberta's lovely older daughter;
she does quilt shops, too. g
Now let's talk Roberta into Houston 20-0-4 !

Ragmop/Sandy--leaving the charming thoughts from the original post


"Roberta Zollner" wrote in message
...


Glad you're mending!
No need to thank us, really. Remember we're a network by our own

volition.


What affects you affects me, both the good stuff and the bad. And
that
quote-I-can't-remember about how shared joy multiplies, while
shared

trouble


reduces? It's perfectly true. We bask in the light of our friends,
even

the


cyber-light. I know for a fact that it's not even necessary to tell
you

my


troubles to feel a calming presence.
Reading the ng every day keeps all of you in my thoughts, just as I
am

sure


to be in all of yours. Thanks!
Roberta in D

"Diana Curtis" wrote in
message
et...


Im going to do a quick explanation with no gory details about my

operation


so everyone knows that I didnt get sent through a wringer. I had
the

type


of


gall bladder removal they used to do, and still do sometimes,
instead

of


the


easier to recover from laparoscopic type they prefer to do. So,

instead


of


a


set of tiny cuts I have a larger one, stapled shut, and two drain

sites.


The


other part of the operation was a strange one where they ran a
camera

and


other gizmos to the site of the stones via the mouth and got some
out

of


the


ducts. The reason my gall bladder needed this more invasive set
of
procedures was simply that there were so many stones and because
they

were


large. Coctail onion size they said.
While in the hospital I thought about what might and could happen

while


in


surgery. I guess its inevitable to face ones own mortality,
especially

when


we know we would leave precious little ones behind, but when I
read

the


messages Mike printed and brought in from all of you I realized
two

things.


Many of you had lived through these procedures and are happy for

having


done


so. Second, I was not going to entertain the notion of leaving.
Dying

was


not an option. I learned too that love can float around me and
cradle

me


in


times of fear. I felt very little. I dont know, or care what diety
or

enti


ty


you sent your prayers towards. I still feel them. They help me
heal,

because


a body cant help but heal better when it feels happy, valued and

loved.


hmm...people have accused me of being effusive. Ill add maudlin to

that


list. Its your own problem if it seems over the top. In fact.. let
me

know


if its over the top and Ill privately email you with MORE!
buwahahahahahaha!!!
hey, I dont LIKE whats happened to me... it hurts, but dang, you
guys

know


how to do that love thing so nicely.
My individual thanks will come as I have time and energy. I have a
lot

of


them to do. I will do them with joy. Its so odd to feel so
wonderfully
happy.
my love to you
Diana
I should probably let this sit overnight to edit later when Im not
so

high..


but.. i dont know.. is there a reason why I should not be this
open

with


my


feelings?
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44




--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens




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Please visit my web page at:
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See my Siberian Cat, Lilly, at:
http://home1.gte.net/res0yk6g/lillypage/lillycat.htm

I have found the studies, and also info about how they were discredited.
Anybody intersted in the links?

http://skepdic.com/prayer.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...er/index.shtml
http://www.csicop.org/articles/20010810-prayer/

It is very sad, but it seems that the psychologist that conducted the
study, a woman, with funding from the NIH as Shelley correctly pointed
out, actually died of a type of brain cancer that was one of the
examples she had selected for her study (the other was AIDS). Obviously
the prayers did not work in this case! I also found lots of
philosophical arguments on why the doings of a superior being cannot be
influenced by the wishes of us mortals. Interesting subject, in fact.

The fact that you know of one doctor who prayed before surgery does not
prove anything, only that he himself believed in the power of praying.
By the way, you say you are not a religious person but will pray when
asked to do so. I am confused. If you are not religious, does that mean
you don't believe in God? Then, what is the purpose of praying?

Shelly wrote:
The government has funded studies, as well as many others. Doctors from
Johns Hopkin have participated in studies, just to name one. This is nothing
new on the medical front. I know this has been going on since at least the
early 80's. We had a doctor here that would not operate without he prayed
for the patient first and for the outcome of the surgery and usually had the
patient pray with him. He was a very good doctor. I am not a religious
person but will pray for anyone that asks. If nothing else, it sure can't
hurt. Neither person, the one doing the praying, or the one being prayed
for. It may only be that is has a placebo affect, if that's so, if it works,
why not use it. It's very cheap.........FREE, and makes many people feel
good! Here are just a few of the links I found on just one search.
Shelly



--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens

Prayer is a positive energy. I don't see that as ever being
a bad thing. Nobody here (especially me)
is going to convert you to believe what you don't have any
interest in believing. I've struggled most of my life
with religion (not God but religion) If you have no sense
of faith you'll never get it. Maybe your next life but not this
one. God has a plan for you even if you don't acknowledge it
you are living it !
Taria


"Dr. Quilter" wrote:

I have found the studies, and also info about how they were discredited.
Anybody intersted in the links?

http://skepdic.com/prayer.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...er/index.shtml
http://www.csicop.org/articles/20010810-prayer/

It is very sad, but it seems that the psychologist that conducted the
study, a woman, with funding from the NIH as Shelley correctly pointed
out, actually died of a type of brain cancer that was one of the
examples she had selected for her study (the other was AIDS). Obviously
the prayers did not work in this case! I also found lots of
philosophical arguments on why the doings of a superior being cannot be
influenced by the wishes of us mortals. Interesting subject, in fact.

The fact that you know of one doctor who prayed before surgery does not
prove anything, only that he himself believed in the power of praying.
By the way, you say you are not a religious person but will pray when
asked to do so. I am confused. If you are not religious, does that mean
you don't believe in God? Then, what is the purpose of praying?

Shelly wrote:
The government has funded studies, as well as many others. Doctors from
Johns Hopkin have participated in studies, just to name one. This is nothing
new on the medical front. I know this has been going on since at least the
early 80's. We had a doctor here that would not operate without he prayed
for the patient first and for the outcome of the surgery and usually had the
patient pray with him. He was a very good doctor. I am not a religious
person but will pray for anyone that asks. If nothing else, it sure can't
hurt. Neither person, the one doing the praying, or the one being prayed
for. It may only be that is has a placebo affect, if that's so, if it works,
why not use it. It's very cheap.........FREE, and makes many people feel
good! Here are just a few of the links I found on just one search.
Shelly


--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens

--
Please visit my web page at:
http://home1.gte.net/res0yk6g/taria/index.htm

See my Siberian Cat, Lilly, at:
http://home1.gte.net/res0yk6g/lillypage/lillycat.htm

Snipped intermittently


The fact that you know of one doctor who prayed before surgery does not
prove anything,

I never said that it proved anything, nor did I pretend it did! The
particular doctor prayed because he'd observed studies that had shown that
prayer before surgery helped patients recover more quickly, had fewer
complications and infections post-op and just had better results overall and
guess what else???? He was very religious. He apparently, believed in the
power of prayer and wanted to pray before surgery. Excellent doctor.



By the way, you say you are not a religious person but will pray when
asked to do so. I am confused.

Why do my religious preferences, or lack of them, confuse you? As I stated
before, I am not a religious person but if someone asks to be prayed for,
I'll honor their request. Just because one no longer chooses to participate
in a church, does not mean that they can not pray for someone. This is the
US. and there aren't any laws pertaining to religion that I know of, other
than the one that states children can't have prayer in schools, which by the
way, I think is RIDICULOS!



If you are not religious, does that mean
you don't believe in God? Then, what is the purpose of praying?

My religious beliefs, or lack there of, are none of your business, or anyone
elses. I do not go to church but grew up in and of, the Baptist faith, if
that's important to you, it's not to me. If someone wants a prayer, like I
said, I'll pray for them. Just because I said that I'm not a religious
person, does NOT mean that I do not have my own personal beliefs. Religion
is after all, only beliefs. It's a fact that prayer makes some people feel
better by relieving anxiety & stress , taking their mind off their problems
and who wouldn't feel better without stress and worry over any problem? How
can that not make a person feel better and heal faster? No worries = more
time and energy to concentrate on getting better/healing. Who really cares
if it works, IF it makes a person feel/heal better after a surgery, or have
a more positive outcome while under the knife in surgery, that's all that
counts, isn't it? It's not about what I BELIEVE and whether or not, I
consider myself to be a religious person here, it's about the person
requesting prayer and about what they believe. It's a very small price to
pay, to help make someone else feel good, so why not just do it? It costs
nothing. I'd like to think, that prayers work and if that's true, they work
equally for all faiths. It doesn't matter whether the person is Jewish and
praying for someone of the Catholic faith, or a Methodist praying for an
athiest. Religion is religion, all beliving in a higher power. IF the
prayers don't work, no one's been hurt either way.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled program............quilting.

Shelly


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Just curious. It confuses me because I don't see how somebody that is
not religious can pray. Maybe it is naive, but don't you have to believe
in a superior being that you are praying to? Otherwise I see it as a
void exercise. For example, when people request prayers, even if I feel
for them, I would not feel comforable 'pretending' to pray since it
would be kind of hypocritical of me. So I wish they get better, and feel
for them. BTW, I don't believe in 'positive energy' either. I do believe
that if someone knows other people care for them and are worried about
their condition, they'll probably feel comforted. I am less convinced
that feeling good can help in the progression of their disease, but
maybe there is some truth to that. But if I rememeber correctly, the
study that was mentioned and started all this, said that the people that
were prayed for were unaware of it, hence all this does not apply,
because they wouldn't have had the 'placebo' benefit that was mentioned
before in the thread!


BTW, I don't see why you are getting upset and defensive, it was a
genuine question and I am not criticizing your position, which of course
you don't need to discuss with me if you don't want to. But I did find
it puzzling. Being in the US and there not being any laws about religion
has nothing to do with it. Maybe it is just a missinterpretation of what
you mean when you say you are not religious, related to the distinction
between not going to church and not believing in God? From my -maybe
naive- point of view, people that believe but chose not to participate
in organized religious activities are still 'religious'.

I find religion and beliefs a very interesting subject which I see from
the outside, so I don't really understand it, and I am genuinely
interested in why people believe. IMHO, most of the time it is something
you 'learn' from your family, almost inherited like a gene. I know that
in the US people sometimes get all upset about discussing religion (and
sex, and politics), but those are the most interesting subjects to me!


By the way, you say you are not a religious person but will pray when
asked to do so. I am confused.


Why do my religious preferences, or lack of them, confuse you? As I stated
before, I am not a religious person but if someone asks to be prayed for,
I'll honor their request. Just because one no longer chooses to participate
in a church, does not mean that they can not pray for someone. This is the
US. and there aren't any laws pertaining to religion that I know of, other
than the one that states children can't have prayer in schools, which by the
way, I think is RIDICULOS!



If you are not religious, does that mean

you don't believe in God? Then, what is the purpose of praying?


My religious beliefs, or lack there of, are none of your business, or anyone
elses. I do not go to church but grew up in and of, the Baptist faith, if
that's important to you, it's not to me. If someone wants a prayer, like I
said, I'll pray for them. Just because I said that I'm not a religious
person, does NOT mean that I do not have my own personal beliefs. Religion
is after all, only beliefs. It's a fact that prayer makes some people feel
better by relieving anxiety & stress , taking their mind off their problems
and who wouldn't feel better without stress and worry over any problem? How
can that not make a person feel better and heal faster? No worries = more
time and energy to concentrate on getting better/healing. Who really cares
if it works, IF it makes a person feel/heal better after a surgery, or have
a more positive outcome while under the knife in surgery, that's all that
counts, isn't it? It's not about what I BELIEVE and whether or not, I
consider myself to be a religious person here, it's about the person
requesting prayer and about what they believe. It's a very small price to
pay, to help make someone else feel good, so why not just do it? It costs
nothing. I'd like to think, that prayers work and if that's true, they work
equally for all faiths. It doesn't matter whether the person is Jewish and
praying for someone of the Catholic faith, or a Methodist praying for an
athiest. Religion is religion, all beliving in a higher power. IF the
prayers don't work, no one's been hurt either way.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled program............quilting.

Shelly


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.514 / Virus Database: 312 - Release Date: 8/28/03



--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens

BTW, I don't see why you are getting upset and defensive, it was a
genuine question and I am not criticizing your position, which of course
you don't need to discuss with me if you don't want to.

I am not upset, nor am I defensive. I gave you genuine answers.
Shelly
"Dr. Quilter" wrote in message
...
Just curious. It confuses me because I don't see how somebody that is
not religious can pray. Maybe it is naive, but don't you have to believe
in a superior being that you are praying to? Otherwise I see it as a
void exercise. For example, when people request prayers, even if I feel
for them, I would not feel comforable 'pretending' to pray since it
would be kind of hypocritical of me. So I wish they get better, and feel
for them. BTW, I don't believe in 'positive energy' either. I do believe
that if someone knows other people care for them and are worried about
their condition, they'll probably feel comforted. I am less convinced
that feeling good can help in the progression of their disease, but
maybe there is some truth to that. But if I rememeber correctly, the
study that was mentioned and started all this, said that the people that
were prayed for were unaware of it, hence all this does not apply,
because they wouldn't have had the 'placebo' benefit that was mentioned
before in the thread!


BTW, I don't see why you are getting upset and defensive, it was a
genuine question and I am not criticizing your position, which of course
you don't need to discuss with me if you don't want to. But I did find
it puzzling. Being in the US and there not being any laws about religion
has nothing to do with it. Maybe it is just a missinterpretation of what
you mean when you say you are not religious, related to the distinction
between not going to church and not believing in God? From my -maybe
naive- point of view, people that believe but chose not to participate
in organized religious activities are still 'religious'.

I find religion and beliefs a very interesting subject which I see from
the outside, so I don't really understand it, and I am genuinely
interested in why people believe. IMHO, most of the time it is something
you 'learn' from your family, almost inherited like a gene. I know that
in the US people sometimes get all upset about discussing religion (and
sex, and politics), but those are the most interesting subjects to me!


By the way, you say you are not a religious person but will pray when
asked to do so. I am confused.


Why do my religious preferences, or lack of them, confuse you? As I
stated
before, I am not a religious person but if someone asks to be prayed
for,
I'll honor their request. Just because one no longer chooses to
participate
in a church, does not mean that they can not pray for someone. This is
the
US. and there aren't any laws pertaining to religion that I know of,
other
than the one that states children can't have prayer in schools, which by
the
way, I think is RIDICULOS!



If you are not religious, does that mean

you don't believe in God? Then, what is the purpose of praying?


My religious beliefs, or lack there of, are none of your business, or
anyone
elses. I do not go to church but grew up in and of, the Baptist faith,
if
that's important to you, it's not to me. If someone wants a prayer, like
I
said, I'll pray for them. Just because I said that I'm not a religious
person, does NOT mean that I do not have my own personal beliefs.
Religion
is after all, only beliefs. It's a fact that prayer makes some people
feel
better by relieving anxiety & stress , taking their mind off their
problems
and who wouldn't feel better without stress and worry over any problem?
How
can that not make a person feel better and heal faster? No worries =
more
time and energy to concentrate on getting better/healing. Who really
cares
if it works, IF it makes a person feel/heal better after a surgery, or
have
a more positive outcome while under the knife in surgery, that's all
that
counts, isn't it? It's not about what I BELIEVE and whether or not, I
consider myself to be a religious person here, it's about the person
requesting prayer and about what they believe. It's a very small price
to
pay, to help make someone else feel good, so why not just do it? It
costs
nothing. I'd like to think, that prayers work and if that's true, they
work
equally for all faiths. It doesn't matter whether the person is Jewish
and
praying for someone of the Catholic faith, or a Methodist praying for an
athiest. Religion is religion, all beliving in a higher power. IF the
prayers don't work, no one's been hurt either way.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled program............quilting.

Shelly


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--
Dr. Quilter
Ambassador of Extraordinary Aliens



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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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