Lampworking - need torch advice.

I don't think the tennis racquet analogy is really a good one. When you are
a beginner, a racquet is pretty much a racquet. You buy the better racquet
when you have an idea as to what type of material you want, weight, head
size and so forth.
With torches, there isn't that kind of choice. Yes, there are lots of
torches out there (for example I have a Carlisle CC that I use about once a
year). But for most people it comes down to Hot Head or Minor.
Let's take the four month example someone brought up. In four months,
assuming a person makes beads 10 hours a week, they are using 3-4 canisters
of MAPP gas (yes, there are refillable tanks, but that's not going to be for
beginners trying to do it on the cheap). At $7 per tank (and they cost
right at $8 around here), that is $21 - $28 per week. That's $336 - $448
for the for months, plus the $40 for the torch. So we are looking at nearly
$400 - $500 for this trial period. For that money, you can buy a minor with
hoses and regulators, etc. Remember either way, you are only looking at the
difference in the cost of the torch setup itself, since a Hot Head kit and a
Minor kit will both contain glasses, mandrels, etc.
The original poster said she had access to oxygen, so that isn't an issue.
The only thing left would be a tank of propane. If she doesn't have one and
is unwilling to steal the one from the neighbor's grill, she can get a full
one for around $40. Even in the case of someone without access to oxygen,
you can rent a tank fairly cheaply. ( I talked to a guy this week who got
one for $150 deposit and they charge him $7/wk rent, plus $25 per refill. I
got my tank for $180 for a ten year lease and I pay about $30 per refill for
the largest tank they had. I understand you can get concentrators for about
$200 - $300 and never worry about O2 again).
So, for 4 months cost of using a Hot Head, she could have a Minor with all
the trimmings. And she can keep all those non-refillable canisters out of
the landfill. And if she doesn't like making beads she can sell the Minor
setup very easily, for nearly what she paid for it I have students always
looking for used Minors.
Anyway you look at it, a Hot Head is false economy. The difference in cost
between that and a Minor is really very small and disappears entirely when
you put it into use.
As for the argument about some beginners liking a Hot Head because it is
slow, I have seen more people give up on lampworking with Hot Heads because
they are so slow and impossible to control.
Just a personal observation.
--
There are no mistakes, only unexplored techniques

"D Brock" wrote in message
...
At the risk of sounding like the recurring voice of cheapness and
shoddyness
(!), I'll pipe up once more. In particular, since others considering
starting in lampworking (but not in BethF's specific situation) may also
read these responses in order to guide them.

So, while I do agree with the "buy the best tool you can afford" tenet, I
think that there should be some consideration of "good enough tool for the
user". In other words, when I started playing tennis, I bought a fairly
cheap racket that was fine for a beginner. Then, later, when I decided
that
I really liked the sport and wanted to continue in it more seriously, and
was getting good enough to notice the difference, then I put out the money
for better equipment.

Is a hothead the best torch for an experienced user? No. Is a hothead an
*adequate* torch to start off with? I believe yes. (In fact, there have
been some posters who mentioned the slowness of the hothead flame as being
a
benefit to learners.)

My main point is that if someone wants to get started in lampworking, but
isn't ready/able to put out the cost of the whole oxy+propane system, they
should not feel that the hothead option is a bad or unsuitable option.

--Dave

Okay, one last "rebuttal" and I'll leave it alone. (And, by the way, I'm
real glad that this has remained a discussion and not a flame war (no pun
intended)).

I again have only minor issues with Louis' numbers, but it is more the
perception and other details that I am bringing up: in other words, looking
at it like a beginner: "I seem to like this hobby, but who knows where I'll
go with it, who knows what will come up, and who knows how many other
hobbies I might start thinking about..."

If, after taking my initial class, I was faced with the entire investment in
a propane+oxygen torch, and all the extras, I probably would have said:
well, that was a fun class, maybe I'll take this up again when I retire, too
much investment and too much hassle to buy and setup. Instead, I made the
smaller cashflow jump, got the hothead, made beads that evening, quickly got
hooked, and yes, did end up following the same math you did, and now, six
months later, have a minor and an oxygen concentrator. So yes, it was in
one way false economy, but on the other hand, it was the only way I would've
gotten started --- wouldn't make the cash and time investment required for
propane+oxygen when I had just tried out the craft.

Another helpful thing was that I could start learning about the craft,
suppliers, etc., before making other investments that could be "wasteful".
For example, I live in a rural area, so oxygen by the tank is expensive, and
more importantly, a huge hassle. That's why I got a concentrator. But had
I gone straight into the oxy+propane setup, I probably would've gotten the
tank and regulator.

In other words, I don't think I'd call it false economy, or at least I'd
call it a balance between economy and cashflow/timing and
setup/hassle/intimidation.

As for being able to get back your investment on the more advanced stuff:
yes, if you know what you're doing. But if you know what you're doing,
you're not needing to get your money back. As a beginner, I still wouldn't
take such a plunge unless maybe the store guaranteed to give me back 80-90%
if I didn't take it up. Hey, retailers, that might be a reasonable thing to
pitch to your customers, along with the numbers that Louis gave here!

So, while my tennis racquet analogy may have its shortcomings, at its core
is still the point that beginners are often reticent or unable to make a
larger investment up front, regardless of the long-term economies, and we
don't want to scare those people off (I would have been one of them!).

I'm happy to "agree to disagree" on this one, especially since we actually
do agree on most of the points, just not on the final conclusion.

(Signing off on this topic!)

--Dave


"Louis Cage" wrote in message
.. .
I don't think the tennis racquet analogy is really a good one. When you
are
a beginner, a racquet is pretty much a racquet. You buy the better
racquet
when you have an idea as to what type of material you want, weight, head
size and so forth.
With torches, there isn't that kind of choice. Yes, there are lots of
torches out there (for example I have a Carlisle CC that I use about once
a
year). But for most people it comes down to Hot Head or Minor.
Let's take the four month example someone brought up. In four months,
assuming a person makes beads 10 hours a week, they are using 3-4
canisters
of MAPP gas (yes, there are refillable tanks, but that's not going to be
for
beginners trying to do it on the cheap). At $7 per tank (and they cost
right at $8 around here), that is $21 - $28 per week. That's $336 - $448
for the for months, plus the $40 for the torch. So we are looking at
nearly
$400 - $500 for this trial period. For that money, you can buy a minor
with
hoses and regulators, etc. Remember either way, you are only looking at
the
difference in the cost of the torch setup itself, since a Hot Head kit and
a
Minor kit will both contain glasses, mandrels, etc.
The original poster said she had access to oxygen, so that isn't an issue.
The only thing left would be a tank of propane. If she doesn't have one
and
is unwilling to steal the one from the neighbor's grill, she can get a
full
one for around $40. Even in the case of someone without access to oxygen,
you can rent a tank fairly cheaply. ( I talked to a guy this week who got
one for $150 deposit and they charge him $7/wk rent, plus $25 per refill.
I
got my tank for $180 for a ten year lease and I pay about $30 per refill
for
the largest tank they had. I understand you can get concentrators for
about
$200 - $300 and never worry about O2 again).
So, for 4 months cost of using a Hot Head, she could have a Minor with all
the trimmings. And she can keep all those non-refillable canisters out of
the landfill. And if she doesn't like making beads she can sell the Minor
setup very easily, for nearly what she paid for it I have students always
looking for used Minors.
Anyway you look at it, a Hot Head is false economy. The difference in
cost
between that and a Minor is really very small and disappears entirely when
you put it into use.
As for the argument about some beginners liking a Hot Head because it is
slow, I have seen more people give up on lampworking with Hot Heads
because
they are so slow and impossible to control.
Just a personal observation.
--
There are no mistakes, only unexplored techniques

"D Brock" wrote in message
...
At the risk of sounding like the recurring voice of cheapness and
shoddyness
(!), I'll pipe up once more. In particular, since others considering
starting in lampworking (but not in BethF's specific situation) may also
read these responses in order to guide them.

So, while I do agree with the "buy the best tool you can afford" tenet,
I
think that there should be some consideration of "good enough tool for
the
user". In other words, when I started playing tennis, I bought a fairly
cheap racket that was fine for a beginner. Then, later, when I decided
that
I really liked the sport and wanted to continue in it more seriously,
and
was getting good enough to notice the difference, then I put out the
money
for better equipment.

Is a hothead the best torch for an experienced user? No. Is a hothead
an
*adequate* torch to start off with? I believe yes. (In fact, there
have
been some posters who mentioned the slowness of the hothead flame as
being
a
benefit to learners.)

My main point is that if someone wants to get started in lampworking,
but
isn't ready/able to put out the cost of the whole oxy+propane system,
they
should not feel that the hothead option is a bad or unsuitable option.

--Dave

Yes. And if, after trying the less expensive equipment you had found out
that you simply don't sem to have a hand for doing better than beginners
work (maybe forever), you're not out too much. Not all locations have
studios you can use to find out if this is something that you can get
satisfying results from.

Tina


"D Brock" wrote in message
...
Okay, one last "rebuttal" and I'll leave it alone. (And, by the way, I'm
real glad that this has remained a discussion and not a flame war (no pun
intended)).

I again have only minor issues with Louis' numbers, but it is more the
perception and other details that I am bringing up: in other words,
looking
at it like a beginner: "I seem to like this hobby, but who knows where
I'll
go with it, who knows what will come up, and who knows how many other
hobbies I might start thinking about..."

If, after taking my initial class, I was faced with the entire investment
in
a propane+oxygen torch, and all the extras, I probably would have said:
well, that was a fun class, maybe I'll take this up again when I retire,
too
much investment and too much hassle to buy and setup. Instead, I made the
smaller cashflow jump, got the hothead, made beads that evening, quickly
got
hooked, and yes, did end up following the same math you did, and now, six
months later, have a minor and an oxygen concentrator. So yes, it was in
one way false economy, but on the other hand, it was the only way I
would've
gotten started --- wouldn't make the cash and time investment required for
propane+oxygen when I had just tried out the craft.

Another helpful thing was that I could start learning about the craft,
suppliers, etc., before making other investments that could be "wasteful".
For example, I live in a rural area, so oxygen by the tank is expensive,
and
more importantly, a huge hassle. That's why I got a concentrator. But
had
I gone straight into the oxy+propane setup, I probably would've gotten the
tank and regulator.

In other words, I don't think I'd call it false economy, or at least I'd
call it a balance between economy and cashflow/timing and
setup/hassle/intimidation.

As for being able to get back your investment on the more advanced stuff:
yes, if you know what you're doing. But if you know what you're doing,
you're not needing to get your money back. As a beginner, I still
wouldn't
take such a plunge unless maybe the store guaranteed to give me back
80-90%
if I didn't take it up. Hey, retailers, that might be a reasonable thing
to
pitch to your customers, along with the numbers that Louis gave here!

So, while my tennis racquet analogy may have its shortcomings, at its core
is still the point that beginners are often reticent or unable to make a
larger investment up front, regardless of the long-term economies, and we
don't want to scare those people off (I would have been one of them!).

I'm happy to "agree to disagree" on this one, especially since we actually
do agree on most of the points, just not on the final conclusion.

(Signing off on this topic!)

--Dave


"Louis Cage" wrote in message
.. .
I don't think the tennis racquet analogy is really a good one. When you
are
a beginner, a racquet is pretty much a racquet. You buy the better
racquet
when you have an idea as to what type of material you want, weight, head
size and so forth.
With torches, there isn't that kind of choice. Yes, there are lots of
torches out there (for example I have a Carlisle CC that I use about
once
a
year). But for most people it comes down to Hot Head or Minor.
Let's take the four month example someone brought up. In four months,
assuming a person makes beads 10 hours a week, they are using 3-4
canisters
of MAPP gas (yes, there are refillable tanks, but that's not going to be
for
beginners trying to do it on the cheap). At $7 per tank (and they cost
right at $8 around here), that is $21 - $28 per week. That's $336 -
$448
for the for months, plus the $40 for the torch. So we are looking at
nearly
$400 - $500 for this trial period. For that money, you can buy a minor
with
hoses and regulators, etc. Remember either way, you are only looking at
the
difference in the cost of the torch setup itself, since a Hot Head kit
and
a
Minor kit will both contain glasses, mandrels, etc.
The original poster said she had access to oxygen, so that isn't an
issue.
The only thing left would be a tank of propane. If she doesn't have one
and
is unwilling to steal the one from the neighbor's grill, she can get a
full
one for around $40. Even in the case of someone without access to
oxygen,
you can rent a tank fairly cheaply. ( I talked to a guy this week who
got
one for $150 deposit and they charge him $7/wk rent, plus $25 per
refill.
I
got my tank for $180 for a ten year lease and I pay about $30 per refill
for
the largest tank they had. I understand you can get concentrators for
about
$200 - $300 and never worry about O2 again).
So, for 4 months cost of using a Hot Head, she could have a Minor with
all
the trimmings. And she can keep all those non-refillable canisters out
of
the landfill. And if she doesn't like making beads she can sell the
Minor
setup very easily, for nearly what she paid for it I have students
always
looking for used Minors.
Anyway you look at it, a Hot Head is false economy. The difference in
cost
between that and a Minor is really very small and disappears entirely
when
you put it into use.
As for the argument about some beginners liking a Hot Head because it
is
slow, I have seen more people give up on lampworking with Hot Heads
because
they are so slow and impossible to control.
Just a personal observation.
--
There are no mistakes, only unexplored techniques

"D Brock" wrote in message
...
At the risk of sounding like the recurring voice of cheapness and
shoddyness
(!), I'll pipe up once more. In particular, since others considering
starting in lampworking (but not in BethF's specific situation) may
also
read these responses in order to guide them.

So, while I do agree with the "buy the best tool you can afford"
tenet,
I
think that there should be some consideration of "good enough tool for
the
user". In other words, when I started playing tennis, I bought a
fairly
cheap racket that was fine for a beginner. Then, later, when I
decided
that
I really liked the sport and wanted to continue in it more seriously,
and
was getting good enough to notice the difference, then I put out the
money
for better equipment.

Is a hothead the best torch for an experienced user? No. Is a
hothead
an
*adequate* torch to start off with? I believe yes. (In fact, there
have
been some posters who mentioned the slowness of the hothead flame as
being
a
benefit to learners.)

My main point is that if someone wants to get started in lampworking,
but
isn't ready/able to put out the cost of the whole oxy+propane system,
they
should not feel that the hothead option is a bad or unsuitable option.

--Dave

I'm not certain what torch you ended up getting, but I purchased this
one:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=35841
from Harbor Freight and although it is propan only, it is easily hot
enough to do Boro work with!! Of course you have to be very careful to
adjust the flame so that you don't burn some of the more sensitive
soft-glass out there...

BethF wrote:
anyone want to give me advice about my first torch?



I am looking to buy my first torch and want to talk to some
lampworkers
before i decide if i want to go cheap and mapp and get the hothead or
get
something o2/ propane?

Whats the differences in safety/convenience/flexibility?

I do have access to o2, boyfriends father is a welder, but thinking
that I
might be better off with the hothead to start with - its so cheap I
wouldn't
mind tossing it if I decide to get a better torch. And while I think
I
might like to use pyrex some day, maybe it wouldnt' kill me to walk
before I
run.


Thanks in advance for any advice you have to offer.

Also interested in :

Your favorite beginners book

Your favorite websites and listservs


Any other gems you have to offer.

~~~What fantastic info! You should be a link on Dr. Sooz's list!~~~

No, he wouldn't be a link on the list -- he'd be in Bead Notes, if
anywhere. However, there's too much varying opinion among lampworkers
for anything definitive on Bead Notes about lampworking equipment, so I
leave it alone. You guys are on your own!

How is that working for you? It's certainly a very low-cost alternative
to a Hot Head. Is the flame chemistry balanced enough that you find you
can work the sensitive colors like rubino and turquoise, or do you find
them discoloring on you?

Do you actually do boro work with it? I may have to buy one to add to my
arsenal of torches, if you are having success with it.

TabbyGlass wrote:
I'm not certain what torch you ended up getting, but I purchased this
one:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=35841
from Harbor Freight and although it is propan only, it is easily hot
enough to do Boro work with!! Of course you have to be very careful to
adjust the flame so that you don't burn some of the more sensitive
soft-glass out there...

BethF wrote:

anyone want to give me advice about my first torch?



I am looking to buy my first torch and want to talk to some

lampworkers

before i decide if i want to go cheap and mapp and get the hothead or

get

something o2/ propane?

Whats the differences in safety/convenience/flexibility?

I do have access to o2, boyfriends father is a welder, but thinking

that I

might be better off with the hothead to start with - its so cheap I

wouldn't

mind tossing it if I decide to get a better torch. And while I think

I

might like to use pyrex some day, maybe it wouldnt' kill me to walk

before I

run.


Thanks in advance for any advice you have to offer.

Also interested in :

Your favorite beginners book

Your favorite websites and listservs


Any other gems you have to offer.



--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com