Top 3 Needlearts ~ A New Poll

Russell Miller wrote in message ...
New poll time. What are your top 3 needlearts choices.
My top 3:
1. Cross stitch
2. Hardanger - when my eyes are agreeable
3. Quilting - actually quilting, not the piecing aspect of making quilts.

Want to get better at:
1. Piecing quilts
2. Knitting
3. Sewing garments

On 12/6/03 7:40 PM,"Dianne Lewandowski" posted:

Ellice wrote:
There are some that also further define the difference between
needlepoint,
and say counted thread work as "Needlepoint being done on a ground which has
holes larger than the woven thread of the ground - i.e. Canvas.

Counted thread work can be done on any fabric . . . not just those
"readily countable" or on a mesh ground. The types of stitches and
manner they are used depends upon the ground. But "counted embroidery"
was, and still is, done on extremely fine grounds that most of us today
wouldn't tackle.

Yes, of course. All I'm saying is to point out one of the ways in which
Needlepoint can be differentiated from other forms of Embroidery or for lack
of a better term (going back to original question) is the difference in
ground. Not how it is stitched. The stitching could be counted, or over a
painted design, or outlined and then filled. Whatever. It's just another way
to look at why some stitching is NP and some would be called CCS, or just
Counted Thread, or whatever.

And what's readily countable by some is someone else's "coarse". Plus,
not all grounds are created equally. For instance, there is 40-count
which is fairly readily countable, and 40-count which is a stickler to
count. It has to do with the size of the threads of the ground.

Ummm, I think this is what I said. Has nothing to do with the gage of the
ground, rather with the ratio of woven threads making the ground vs the
openings in the weave. There is 40 ct silk gauze, which is considered in the
genre of NP - albeit very, very fine petit point.

*snip*
Needlepoint is embroidery on canvas. However, those same stitches (such
as Algerian filling stitch) might also be done on 32-count Belfast

*snip*
Absolutely. As I said in the next little snippet.It is also done on Congress
Cloth, and on Silk Gauze. And one of the characteristics which defines
canvas is the way it's woven (aside from coatings). I actually have some
linen Congress Cloth - 22 ct - which is a ground that fits into the larger
holes than threads category - but isn't heavily coated.

embroidery is done on a ground fabric of which the holes are smaller than
the woven threads - i.e. Evenweave, aida, linen, satin, etc" . Just a visual
kind of easy thing to remember. Most stitches can be done on whatever the
ground - with some effort ;^)

Sorry, it's ALL embroidery, whether it's in a genre of "needlepoint"
(embroidery on canvas), or raised (Brazilian, stumpwork), or flat
(shading, normal surface stuff), or goldwork. Whether you withdraw
thread or pucker them in some fashion, as in smocking. In smocking, by
the way, you can create "pictures", just as in needlepoint with its tent
stitches, or in cross stitch.

Yes, it is agreed, all embroidery. Just referring, again, to the original
queston, and the colloquial way in which some people think of Counted Thread
Embroidery or XS, or whatever. Yes, Needlepoint is Embroidery, but not all
Embroidery is Needlepoint. Does that meet the necessary pedantic standard? I
liked this brief definition set:
EMBROIDER

Pronunciation:
*
em'broydur

Matching Terms:
*
embroidered ,embroiderer ,embroideress ,embroidery ,embroidery frame
,embroidery hoop ,embroidery needle

WordNet Dictionary
*
Definition:
*
[v] * add details to
[v] * decorate with needlework
*
Synonyms:
*
aggrandise ,aggrandize ,blow up ,broider ,dramatise ,dramatize ,embellish
,lard ,pad

See Also:
*
adorn ,amplify ,beautify ,decorate ,embellish ,exaggerate ,glorify ,grace
,hyerbolise ,hyperbolize ,magnify ,ornament ,overdraw ,overstate ,purl ,run
up ,sew ,sew together ,stitch

Needlepoint is unique in that it is embroidery worked on a square,
stiffer mesh (including fine silk mesh) which supports the type of
stitches originally used. Other embroidery is worked on just about
anything you can imagine, from cheesecloth to 300-count percale to
blanketing.

Actually not so about the square mesh. It is much more variable than many of
the finer grounds. Can be woven say 18 ct - threads to the inch - refers to
the Warp threads (stronger, vertical or lengthwise). The Weft threads which
run horizontal, are weaker in their attachment, and may not have the same
count. I have canvas that feels less stiff than some Aida, and so forth. And
again, stiffness isn't the only characteristic which differentiates canvas
from other fabric - just one of them.

We already know that you don't agree with the ANG definition of Needlepoint:
Taken from web-site http://www.needlepoint.org/FAQ/stitching.htm#Q12

==What is needlepoint?

ANG defines needlepoint as "any counted or free stitchery worked by hand
with a threaded needle on a readily countable ground." Traditionally,
needlepoint has been embroidery done on canvas, using wool to execute the
tent stitch. While such embroideries are needlepoint, needlepointers now
have available a much broader palette of stitches and techniques. For more
information, see What is Needlepoint?

Anyhow, this was just addressing the original questioner who was thinking of
needlepoint only as the traditional picture of a tapestry. We all have
somewhat colloquial ways that we think about the differences in techniques,
etc.

There are many that only do geometric patterns - highlighting stitches and
texture, rather than pictures as Needlepoint. And similarly, some who prefer
pictures - scenics, etc. Same for other forms of embroidery.

"Pictures scenes" can be created by many mediums, including flat
embroidery that isn't counted. There's some interest in painting
backgrounds on a cloth, then embroidering on top. Some of these can be
quite beautiful.

Just addressing the original questioner's thoughts about NP being scenic
kind of topics. Of course, anyone could stitch any subject they like in any
medium.

Ellice

Ellice wrote:


Just addressing the original questioner's thoughts about NP being scenic
kind of topics. Of course, anyone could stitch any subject they like in any
medium.

Actually, the original poster also asked about needlepainting, but
that's gotten lost in later posts. Other than the information available
on Tanja Berlin's site, there doesn't seem to be too much about
needlepainting out there.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Ellice wrote:

Actually not so about the square mesh. It is much more variable than many of
the finer grounds. Can be woven say 18 ct - threads to the inch - refers to
the Warp threads (stronger, vertical or lengthwise). The Weft threads which
run horizontal, are weaker in their attachment, and may not have the same
count. I have canvas that feels less stiff than some Aida, and so forth. And
again, stiffness isn't the only characteristic which differentiates canvas
from other fabric - just one of them.

Ok, but it's a stiffer mesh than cheesecloth. I think we all know that
needlepoint is generally worked on a mesh, whether square or a teeny bit
rectangular.

Anyhow, this was just addressing the original questioner who was thinking of
needlepoint only as the traditional picture of a tapestry. We all have
somewhat colloquial ways that we think about the differences in techniques,
etc.

Colloquial refers to language. Perhaps you meant to say "regional
differences" in how we think about certain forms of embroidery. I would
think that most people in the U.S., unless they belong to ANG or EGA or
been exposed by someone they know, and have taken some canvas classes,
pretty much think of needlepoint as the traditional stitches for the
past 100 or so years - such as tent, surrey, florentine, bargello, etc.
etc. etc.

I understand all too well the confusion as I learned early on that
sometimes what we "think" belongs "over here", really in fact belongs
"everywhere" - or nearly so. :-) Yes, I take issue with the modern
definition of "readily countable ground", because that is in the eye of
the beholder.

In the end, each of us gets to experience the eye-opening as we are
gradually exposed to different types of embroidery. It's a wonderful,
exciting thing to learn. Almost endless in the possibilities. And in
the process, we learn about all sorts of "grounds", and how best to use
them effectively with stitches. The only way to truly understand is to
simply do it. Even 3 inches of it. Even just once. As was said to me,
"Anything you do with needle and thread improves what else you do with
needle and thread."

And then there are embroidery techniques that actually belong - at least
partially so - in the "lace" category. Yes, it does get confusing.

Dianne






There are many that only do geometric patterns - highlighting stitches and
texture, rather than pictures as Needlepoint. And similarly, some who prefer
pictures - scenics, etc. Same for other forms of embroidery.

"Pictures scenes" can be created by many mediums, including flat
embroidery that isn't counted. There's some interest in painting
backgrounds on a cloth, then embroidering on top. Some of these can be
quite beautiful.


Just addressing the original questioner's thoughts about NP being scenic
kind of topics. Of course, anyone could stitch any subject they like in any
medium.

Ellice

On 12/7/03 11:07 AM,"Dr. Brat" posted:

Ellice wrote:


Just addressing the original questioner's thoughts about NP being scenic
kind of topics. Of course, anyone could stitch any subject they like in any
medium.

Actually, the original poster also asked about needlepainting, but
that's gotten lost in later posts. Other than the information available
on Tanja Berlin's site, there doesn't seem to be too much about
needlepainting out there.

LOL - thanks for pulling some focus there, Elizabeth. I thought there was
that Oriental stitching book which Lula IIRC recommended, full of info on
needlepainting. I know that I have some other references - I'll just have
to dig them out of the mess.

ellice

And French hand sewing- one of my favorites- Where does that belong? I wpuld
say it's definitely a needle art. It's one of my favorites along with
smocking. First, though is counted stitching. The truth is, though that it's
hard to decide among the various forms of needlework. I like everything I've
ever tried altho I do more crocheting than knittinng ( it's faster) and
haven't tried some of the more esoteric forms of embroidery ---yet! There
just isn't ennough time in the day to do everything.
"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote in message
...
Ellice wrote:

Actually not so about the square mesh. It is much more variable than
many of
the finer grounds. Can be woven say 18 ct - threads to the inch - refers
to
the Warp threads (stronger, vertical or lengthwise). The Weft threads
which
run horizontal, are weaker in their attachment, and may not have the
same
count. I have canvas that feels less stiff than some Aida, and so forth.
And
again, stiffness isn't the only characteristic which differentiates
canvas
from other fabric - just one of them.

Ok, but it's a stiffer mesh than cheesecloth. I think we all know that
needlepoint is generally worked on a mesh, whether square or a teeny bit
rectangular.

Anyhow, this was just addressing the original questioner who was
thinking of
needlepoint only as the traditional picture of a tapestry. We all have
somewhat colloquial ways that we think about the differences in
techniques,
etc.

Colloquial refers to language. Perhaps you meant to say "regional
differences" in how we think about certain forms of embroidery. I would
think that most people in the U.S., unless they belong to ANG or EGA or
been exposed by someone they know, and have taken some canvas classes,
pretty much think of needlepoint as the traditional stitches for the
past 100 or so years - such as tent, surrey, florentine, bargello, etc.
etc. etc.

I understand all too well the confusion as I learned early on that
sometimes what we "think" belongs "over here", really in fact belongs
"everywhere" - or nearly so. :-) Yes, I take issue with the modern
definition of "readily countable ground", because that is in the eye of
the beholder.

In the end, each of us gets to experience the eye-opening as we are
gradually exposed to different types of embroidery. It's a wonderful,
exciting thing to learn. Almost endless in the possibilities. And in
the process, we learn about all sorts of "grounds", and how best to use
them effectively with stitches. The only way to truly understand is to
simply do it. Even 3 inches of it. Even just once. As was said to me,
"Anything you do with needle and thread improves what else you do with
needle and thread."

And then there are embroidery techniques that actually belong - at least
partially so - in the "lace" category. Yes, it does get confusing.

Dianne






There are many that only do geometric patterns - highlighting stitches
and
texture, rather than pictures as Needlepoint. And similarly, some who
prefer
pictures - scenics, etc. Same for other forms of embroidery.

"Pictures scenes" can be created by many mediums, including flat
embroidery that isn't counted. There's some interest in painting
backgrounds on a cloth, then embroidering on top. Some of these can be
quite beautiful.


Just addressing the original questioner's thoughts about NP being scenic
kind of topics. Of course, anyone could stitch any subject they like in
any
medium.

Ellice

I have a friend who has done extensive research into hand sewing,
including in Europe. Right now she is in the process of translating
French text on patterns and sewing.

A long time back, when she was in the thick of this, I asked her about
roll/whip - commonly referred to as French hand sewing, with its use of
entredeux. I couldn't locate references, except from modern writers
such as Sarah Howard Stone, as to its beginnings.

Dressmaking that I knew of incorporated rolling and hemming, even
whipping, but not the way described (currently) as French hand sewing.

Anyway, my friend said she found no references prior to about 1920. I
found that very interesting. We communicate regularly, she is still
researching, and she'll let me know if she ever finds anything of an
earlier period.

It is a difficult technique to master, particularly curves. You have to
*want* to do it. Much of it today is accomplished on the sewing
machine. But I credit Martha Pullen for putting it in the public eye.
If you can do this, and do it well, you have a special talent.

Smocking can be so very beautiful. I'm not enamoured with picture
smocking, but I love the geometrics. Lark Books had a book on smocking
that I was always going to purchase but never did. Not sure if it's
still available. A modern way of thinking about smocking. I remember
drooling over the cover picture. :-) I also remember a movie from
about the 1950's and the woman wore the most beautiful robe with smocked
yoke. Always wanted one like it. grin It's a shame it isn't used
more by adult women. Such gorgeous patterning - once upon a time used
for peasant "men's" shirts. Imagine!

Dianne

Judith Truly wrote:
And French hand sewing- one of my favorites- Where does that belong? I wpuld
say it's definitely a needle art. It's one of my favorites along with
smocking. First, though is counted stitching. The truth is, though that it's
hard to decide among the various forms of needlework. I like everything I've
ever tried altho I do more crocheting than knittinng ( it's faster) and
haven't tried some of the more esoteric forms of embroidery ---yet! There
just isn't ennough time in the day to do everything.
"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote in message
...

Ellice wrote:


Actually not so about the square mesh. It is much more variable than

many of

the finer grounds. Can be woven say 18 ct - threads to the inch - refers

to

the Warp threads (stronger, vertical or lengthwise). The Weft threads

which

run horizontal, are weaker in their attachment, and may not have the

same

count. I have canvas that feels less stiff than some Aida, and so forth.

And

again, stiffness isn't the only characteristic which differentiates

canvas

from other fabric - just one of them.

Ok, but it's a stiffer mesh than cheesecloth. I think we all know that
needlepoint is generally worked on a mesh, whether square or a teeny bit
rectangular.


Anyhow, this was just addressing the original questioner who was

thinking of

needlepoint only as the traditional picture of a tapestry. We all have
somewhat colloquial ways that we think about the differences in

techniques,

etc.

Colloquial refers to language. Perhaps you meant to say "regional
differences" in how we think about certain forms of embroidery. I would
think that most people in the U.S., unless they belong to ANG or EGA or
been exposed by someone they know, and have taken some canvas classes,
pretty much think of needlepoint as the traditional stitches for the
past 100 or so years - such as tent, surrey, florentine, bargello, etc.
etc. etc.

I understand all too well the confusion as I learned early on that
sometimes what we "think" belongs "over here", really in fact belongs
"everywhere" - or nearly so. :-) Yes, I take issue with the modern
definition of "readily countable ground", because that is in the eye of
the beholder.

In the end, each of us gets to experience the eye-opening as we are
gradually exposed to different types of embroidery. It's a wonderful,
exciting thing to learn. Almost endless in the possibilities. And in
the process, we learn about all sorts of "grounds", and how best to use
them effectively with stitches. The only way to truly understand is to
simply do it. Even 3 inches of it. Even just once. As was said to me,
"Anything you do with needle and thread improves what else you do with
needle and thread."

And then there are embroidery techniques that actually belong - at least
partially so - in the "lace" category. Yes, it does get confusing.

Dianne






There are many that only do geometric patterns - highlighting stitches

and

texture, rather than pictures as Needlepoint. And similarly, some who

prefer

pictures - scenics, etc. Same for other forms of embroidery.

"Pictures scenes" can be created by many mediums, including flat
embroidery that isn't counted. There's some interest in painting
backgrounds on a cloth, then embroidering on top. Some of these can be
quite beautiful.


Just addressing the original questioner's thoughts about NP being scenic
kind of topics. Of course, anyone could stitch any subject they like in

any

medium.

Ellice