ADVICE: Large Stained Glass Piece

My wife works in stained glass, using the copper foil technique. She
has been asked to make a large rectangular piece to cover a window, and
is not sure it is feasible with that technique (can it be made rigid
enough?). The project is not to make the window itself, but to make a
rectangular hanging piece large enough to cover most or all of a window
46 inches wide x 21 inches high.

Thanks for any advice.

--
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already
tomorrow in Australia."

i work that large daily in foil. Just make sure the design will lend the
structural support necessary and use strongline where you can. m

"Matthew Lybanon" wrote in message
...
My wife works in stained glass, using the copper foil technique. She
has been asked to make a large rectangular piece to cover a window, and
is not sure it is feasible with that technique (can it be made rigid
enough?). The project is not to make the window itself, but to make a
rectangular hanging piece large enough to cover most or all of a window
46 inches wide x 21 inches high.

Thanks for any advice.

--
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already
tomorrow in Australia."

The copper foil technique can be used for virtually any size of window.
The important part is proper reinforcement.

As a rule of thumb, a window more than three square feet should be
reinforced. Either reinforcing bar or rod may be used for support. Be
sure to consider this when designing the window so that the
reinforcement does not intrude or compromise the design of the finished
work. In either case the reinforcement is soldered to the back of the
panel in one of two ways. The bar should be pre-tinned before use. You
will solder the bar in several places at intersecting lines on the
window. Rough the areas to be soldered on the bar with steel wool. Apply
flux and coat the areas with solder. Doing this will make soldering the
bar to the window much easier. Place the bar on edge and solder to the
window in the predetermined areas.

When using rod, a length of pre-tinned wire is first soldered at several
intersecting lines on the window where the rod will sit. The rod rests
on the wire which is twisted around it. Apply a bit of solder to the
twisted wire. Solder either end of the rod (or bar) to the edge came. In
some cases the rod or bar extends on either side of the panel and is
“buried” in the wood casing of the window to provide optimum security.
The casing is notched where the bar will fit and filled over to disguise
it.


Matthew Lybanon wrote:
My wife works in stained glass, using the copper foil technique. She
has been asked to make a large rectangular piece to cover a window, and
is not sure it is feasible with that technique (can it be made rigid
enough?). The project is not to make the window itself, but to make a
rectangular hanging piece large enough to cover most or all of a window
46 inches wide x 21 inches high.

Thanks for any advice.

--
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already
tomorrow in Australia."

"John" wrote in message
...
The copper foil technique can be used for virtually any size of window.
The important part is proper reinforcement.

As a rule of thumb, a window more than three square feet should be
reinforced. Either reinforcing bar or rod may be used for support. Be
sure to consider this when designing the window so that the
reinforcement does not intrude or compromise the design of the finished
work. In either case the reinforcement is soldered to the back of the
panel in one of two ways. The bar should be pre-tinned before use. You
will solder the bar in several places at intersecting lines on the
window. Rough the areas to be soldered on the bar with steel wool. Apply
flux and coat the areas with solder. Doing this will make soldering the
bar to the window much easier. Place the bar on edge and solder to the
window in the predetermined areas.

When using rod, a length of pre-tinned wire is first soldered at several
intersecting lines on the window where the rod will sit. The rod rests
on the wire which is twisted around it. Apply a bit of solder to the
twisted wire. Solder either end of the rod (or bar) to the edge came. In
some cases the rod or bar extends on either side of the panel and is
“buried” in the wood casing of the window to provide optimum security.
The casing is notched where the bar will fit and filled over to disguise
it.


Nice description, but it does go to show there are different ways of doing
things in different studios, with a different point of view.

1. I NEVER put bars outside the window, i.e. "back", for two reasons, first
if this is an exposed panel, when the wind and rain come they are exerting
pressure toward the inside of the building, the steel rebar is then
"pulling" where it is attached and the window is only held by the ties, no
strength there everything stretches and the steel returns to "plumb" but the
glass does not, buckling will occur and the support you wanted is gone.

If it is on the inside of the panel 2 things occur, the wind and rain is
"pushing" against the window and the rebar, the rebar is holding everything
and when the wind stops the memory in the steel springs everything back to
plumb, ideal situation, (those old guys did know something!) Also when the
sun is shining and moving across the sky, with the bars on the outside, the
size of the shadow cast changes in size, if the bar is on the inside, it
stays the same.

I read an article, and I wish I could remember which mag it was in, probably
the Stained Glass of the SGAA, that said the eyes see the bars, the mind
ignores them, and you see the entire design as planned.

Also, from a restoration guys point of view, having been up on the scaffold,
cutting the tie wires to remove a panel for restoration, I find a "soldered
to the bar at the edge" on a window with the bars sunk in the wood and I am
one ****ed off individual. Please, for the next generations sake, DO NOT DO
THIS!

As a side note, for those that want to jump in, I am NOT addressing the use
of protective glazing , outer "glass" of plastic or tempered glass or any
other condition, just the use of rebar, (vertically every 18-24 inches
depending on design)

"John" wrote in message
...
The copper foil technique can be used for virtually any size of window.
The important part is proper reinforcement.

As a rule of thumb, a window more than three square feet should be
reinforced.

Methinks you've been sitting on yer thumb. The original poster was
inquiring about a decorative panel that is not exposed to the elements or
likely to be abused like being mounted into a door. It doesn't need any
reinforcement, as long as there aren't any major design flaws creating fold
lines, etc.

Three square feet is a panel about 21" +/- square. I see panels EVERY DAY
that are 28"x76" door inserts that aren't reinforced. I see bath windows
that are up to 20 square feet (5'-0" by 4'-0") that aren't reinforced. In
fact, in modern residental applications, reinforcing is pretty much
non-existant....know why? Because the people who build them know how to
cut and fit glass together and how to design panels so that they don't have
fold lines and how to cement a leaded panel to make it stand up.

I know people do it, but you would never catch me exposing a copper-foiled
panel to the elements. There's a guy nearby here who makes door inserts and
bath windows with this technique, and somehow manages to stay in business.
I asked him why he did it that way....his answer was that he didn't know how
to do lead came. I just shook my head. He's been in business for a long
time and teaches classes, etc. Sheesh.

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:15:52 GMT, Matthew Lybanon
wrote:

rectangular hanging piece large enough to cover most or all of a window
46 inches wide x 21 inches high.

I'm not a glass worker, I do woodwork. I've just been asked to make a
frame for a similar piece.

It's for an internal doorway that has been bricked up to leave a
window. The doorway is 2'6" by 3'6" tall, the wall is 4" thick and the
glass is 2" less than this all round (i.e. the frame is 2" thick).
It's copper foiled. I note the comments about "fold lines". Owing to
the design, this panel will have fold lines in the border area, about
3" in from the edge.

Any advice? What's the best way to support a piece of glasslike this?
I'm thinking of making a wooden frame that's 1/2" undersize, mounting
the glass in it in my workshop, then taking the whole lot on site
inside the frame. I then shim the frame to fit the hole (which I've
not accurately measured).

Thanks,

generally, i don't have any type of reinforcement until it's around 14' in
linear edge in size. for copper foil, i would use strongline. you might ask
the fabricator if they put any in when the panel was assembled.

if it's in a thick frame, then your panel should be ok. i have both vertical
and horizontal fold lines near the edges in
http://groups.msn.com/chaniarts/stai...oto&PhotoID=53,
it's a bit larger than your piece, and has been hanging for about 5 years
without any problems. it's frame in 1" deep by .5" wide standard aluminium
picture frame.

your idea of shimming the frame is ok, but will be visible. you could make
it a little more undersized, and simply hang it from some eye rings set into
the upper frame, or use some trim around the edges to hide the shims. the
hanging idea would allow it to be removed for cleaning easily. i've done it
both ways.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az


"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:15:52 GMT, Matthew Lybanon
wrote:

rectangular hanging piece large enough to cover most or all of a window
46 inches wide x 21 inches high.

I'm not a glass worker, I do woodwork. I've just been asked to make a
frame for a similar piece.

It's for an internal doorway that has been bricked up to leave a
window. The doorway is 2'6" by 3'6" tall, the wall is 4" thick and the
glass is 2" less than this all round (i.e. the frame is 2" thick).
It's copper foiled. I note the comments about "fold lines". Owing to
the design, this panel will have fold lines in the border area, about
3" in from the edge.

Any advice? What's the best way to support a piece of glasslike this?
I'm thinking of making a wooden frame that's 1/2" undersize, mounting
the glass in it in my workshop, then taking the whole lot on site
inside the frame. I then shim the frame to fit the hole (which I've
not accurately measured).

Thanks,

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:15:52 GMT, Matthew Lybanon
wrote:

Any advice? What's the best way to support a piece of glasslike this?
I'm thinking of making a wooden frame that's 1/2" undersize, mounting
the glass in it in my workshop, then taking the whole lot on site
inside the frame. I then shim the frame to fit the hole (which I've
not accurately measured).

Thanks,

Well....Make the frame with a rabbett large enough to drop the panel into.
Seal the panel into the rabbett with some clear silicone, and hold it all in
place with some stop on the other side. Once the panel is surrounded and
sealed into the frame, you shouldn't need any reinforcement. Think of how
a panel is set into an entry door. You could install stop into the jamb,
set the frame into the stop (shiming for level) and then put stop on the
other side.