The Voices in my Head

Kathy N-V wrote in message
...

It's sad to hear you had that experience. I completely understand where
you're coming from - deep down, the child in you wonders, if my family can't
love me, who can? You can give yourself the love they can't give, pat
yourself on the back for building a good relationship with your daughter,
and realize it's not your fault if it still hurts sometimes.

But you also have some secret weapons. You're intelligent and you have a
deeper understanding. Your parents' reactions to you, on the other hand,
are to a great extent unthinking, automatic, maybe more of a reaction to
things *their* parents said than to you. This gives you more power than you
might think, in terms of the ongoing problem.

If your parents tend to repeat the same insults time and again, you have the
advantage. You actually know what they're going to say in advance! This
means you can role play with yourself or someone else and plan the way
you're going to react the next time they say that same old thing.

My father was always asking about my plans, then using whatever answer I
gave to launch into a lecture about my insufficiencies and how I ought to go
about things. I role played this with my SO, so that the next time he did
it, I was able to respond with, "Wow, it sounds as if you know a lot about
this, Dad. You should consider doing it yourself." For once, he was
speechless - my stepmother had to finish out the conversation. He was
completely taken aback that I defended myself. He didn't try that again for
*years*.

It doesn't fix the past, but it can be very healing to know *you have the
power to stop them from hurting you in the here and now*. This seems
simple, but we don't do it, because the child in us is always hoping that
mom and dad will give us that unconditional love - is always shocked when
they don't.

HTH,
* TL *

I was going to snip parts but ...again.. its all to good to.

What I would like to know is how to deal with the unspoken dissappointment
that comes off my father in waves. He never *says* anything unkind to my
face, but you can tell. For instance, when I brought DH, then my fiancee, to
my brother's house my father showed up while Mike and I were on the deck. My
father saw us on the deck together and sadly shook his head. I didnt see
this.. it was Mike who let me know. I proudly introduced Mike to my dad (
not knowing of this rudness on dads part)
I should add that I don't see my father, unless my brother has invited us
both to the same function. That hasnt happened in over 5 years. Its to hard
to deal with his crushing dissappointment.
His loss. Most of the time I think Im pretty neat. There are even those
people who are not family members who agree!
Diana


--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44

"Tante Lina" wrote in message
k.net...
Kathy N-V wrote in message
...

It's sad to hear you had that experience. I completely understand where
you're coming from - deep down, the child in you wonders, if my family
can't
love me, who can? You can give yourself the love they can't give, pat
yourself on the back for building a good relationship with your daughter,
and realize it's not your fault if it still hurts sometimes.

But you also have some secret weapons. You're intelligent and you have a
deeper understanding. Your parents' reactions to you, on the other hand,
are to a great extent unthinking, automatic, maybe more of a reaction to
things *their* parents said than to you. This gives you more power than
you
might think, in terms of the ongoing problem.

If your parents tend to repeat the same insults time and again, you have
the
advantage. You actually know what they're going to say in advance! This
means you can role play with yourself or someone else and plan the way
you're going to react the next time they say that same old thing.

My father was always asking about my plans, then using whatever answer I
gave to launch into a lecture about my insufficiencies and how I ought to
go
about things. I role played this with my SO, so that the next time he did
it, I was able to respond with, "Wow, it sounds as if you know a lot about
this, Dad. You should consider doing it yourself." For once, he was
speechless - my stepmother had to finish out the conversation. He was
completely taken aback that I defended myself. He didn't try that again
for
*years*.

It doesn't fix the past, but it can be very healing to know *you have the
power to stop them from hurting you in the here and now*. This seems
simple, but we don't do it, because the child in us is always hoping that
mom and dad will give us that unconditional love - is always shocked when
they don't.

HTH,
* TL *

Diana Curtis wrote in message ...
I was going to snip parts but ...again.. its all to good to.

What I would like to know is how to deal with the unspoken dissappointment
that comes off my father in waves. He never *says* anything unkind to my
face, but you can tell. For instance, when I brought DH, then my fiancee,
to
my brother's house my father showed up while Mike and I were on the deck.
My
father saw us on the deck together and sadly shook his head. I didnt see
this.. it was Mike who let me know. I proudly introduced Mike to my dad (
not knowing of this rudness on dads part)
I should add that I don't see my father, unless my brother has invited us
both to the same function. That hasnt happened in over 5 years. Its to
hard
to deal with his crushing dissappointment.
His loss. Most of the time I think Im pretty neat. There are even those
people who are not family members who agree!

Oh I'm sure you are neat!

What are his circumstances? Sounds like there was a divorce in the past?
Did he miss seeing you grow up? Is he happy with his accomplishments in
life?

* TL *

Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I
can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the
veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat respectfully
was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my
childhood...and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts and
ideas.
I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life
at a more lucrative job.
My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older
brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just
couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge
dissappointment to him.
I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected
by it. What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew? Unproductive.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Diana

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44

"Tante Lina" wrote in message
k.net...
Most of the time I think Im pretty neat. There are even those
people who are not family members who agree!

Oh I'm sure you are neat!

What are his circumstances? Sounds like there was a divorce in the past?
Did he miss seeing you grow up? Is he happy with his accomplishments in
life?

* TL *

"Diana Curtis" wrote in message
...
Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I
can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the
veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat
respectfully
was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my
childhood...and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts
and
ideas.
I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life
at a more lucrative job.
My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older
brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just
couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge
dissappointment to him.

(This is inspired by Diana's post, but much of this could be said in
response to what Kathy wrote as well):

I'd be willing to bet that your dad isn't so much disappointed in *you* as
he is in himself. Because you're his daughter (and perhaps because this is
his tendency as part of his personality) he sees you as a part of himself.
He can't reconcile the good person that you are with his inner image of
himself as a disappointment to himself and others-- perhaps his own parents.
But since he can't bear the pain of being such a disappointment to himself,
he projects that out on to you and your brother.

I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he
would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be
affected
by it.

There is absolutely no way you can please someone like this. The vision
your dad has of you is not grounded in your reality but is colored by his
own filters. This actually has nothing to do with you, and everything to do
with him, and he's the only one who could possibly do anything to change
it-- and of course you know this already.

What I would like it to stop stewing about it.

Maybe you could start by really working to develop a gut level understanding
that the problem is not yours to "fix". It is so hard to let go of things
like this-- I know that this is far easier said than done, but this is a
problem that undoubtely existed for your father long before you came into
the world. Having kids just gave him a place to put some of the blame for
things that he didn't know how to fix and that you had nothing to do with.

What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok.

I bet lots of us who grew up in dysfunctional homes feel the same way about
our parents. I think that in many families the roles are cast while the
children are still very, very young and the family dynamic revolves around
that casting. That we don't always fit the role that was handed us can
create a lot of confusion and tension until we realize real autonomy and
stop worrying and guilting about the disconnect between who we actually are
and the roles our families cast us in.

Learning to have confidence in yourself as a good person when you've grown
up like this is a big deal, and it sounds like you're doing exactly that.

Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew?

Because there's a part of you that still feels like the little girl that
couldn't do anything right to please dad?

Unproductive.

But it isn't a bad thing to acknowledge, explore and express these feelings
and thoughts. That's very healthy and productive.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Venting is very good for us

Laura

I won't repeat what has already been said, but my sister and I are
always asking about how it is that so man people are abused growing up
and isn't it more than we know.
While it was happening to me, for some reason, I took a different turn.
I knew, though it was in an era long ago, when this treatment of me, was
not as well known and all like we have now, that this was wrong. i knew
it wasn;t my fault and I could not wait for my 18th birthday, so I could
go. My Grandmother was the perpetrator, for the most part. I often
remark that I raised mysef and to some extent that is true. I
reconnected with my mother 10 years ago after not being around her for
mny years. She has had to learn s0me rules about behavior and sometimes
she fails. But we just move on .... the percentage of abused kids is
surely higher than we know !
Rainbow

In article ,
says...

I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected
by it. What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew? Unproductive.

If you have the time and the money, you might find it helpful to get some
short-term counseling about this. A trained professional may be able to offer
perspectives and solutions that even the most well-intentioned friend can't.
Beyond that, it sounds as though you're doing reasonably well on your own.
You've removed yourself from the source of the discomfort, and are
concentrating on what you KNOW to be true rather than what the tapes are
telling you.

One technique which some people find helpful when dealing with old tapes is
"direct substitution". Every time you catch yourself thinking thoughts which
come from the old tape, replace those thoughts with something else. Instead of
thinking, "I'm such a disappointment to my father," think, "I'm a good person,
I've accomplished a lot with my life, and I'm not responsible for my father's
problems." Say it out loud, if necessary. Over time, you can actually rewrite
the tape -- but it won't happen in a month, maybe not even in a year. You just
keep doing it, and eventually you'll find yourself more likely to think *your*
thoughts than the taped ones. It's like breaking any other habit.

Celine

--
Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

Diana Curtis wrote in message ...
Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I
can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the
veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat
respectfully
was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my
childhood...

This would explain why he would not like seeing you with another man.

and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts and ideas.

So I'm still trying to understand - at one time, he did express his
disapproval? Then, at some point, he stopped saying it, but the body
language is still there? Do you remember what happened at the time he
stopped verbalizing it? Was it at the time of the divorce? At a certain
age? After a blowup / estrangement with one of your siblings?

I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life
at a more lucrative job.
My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older
brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just
couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge
disappointment to him.

The one thought that came to my mind when I first read this, was the same as
Lee's: he's disappointed in himself, and this is the way he deals with it.

I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he
would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected
by it.

Even though your first job is to protect yourself, I would not rule out a
miracle for two reasons.

The book Passages describes how after midlife, men start to explore their
feminine side, women start to explore their masculine side. So for
instance, many women start successful businesses in the second half of their
lives. Men often get very wrapped up in their grandkids.
Although, at some time long ago, his emotional development was arrested, as
he gets older there is going to be a natural pull toward family.

Also, as people age, they begin to experience the deaths of friends,
colleagues, and loved ones. Eventually this leads them to confront the
possibility of their own life's end. It's a natural desire to want to make
peace with one's past while there's still time.

These impulses may be stirring in your father, however weakly.

I say this because I had a similar problem with my father. Although I
"solved" it by removing myself from him, and stopping him from saying the
things that hurt me, I now wish I had occasionally had it out with him - to
express my side of the story, if nothing else. He died unexpectedly at a
relatively young age, and now I will never get the chance to say my peace -
whatever his reaction.

I agree with Celine, working with a counselor would help you draft that
letter you need to write him - to get it out there while he's still living.
Whether he changes or not, you will feel better. And there's the million to
one chance he might surprise you. Sometimes we have to be content with
planting a seed.

What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew? Unproductive.

Have you ever read the book "Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller? I
think it would be very cathartic for you to read, and Kathy too. It's about
how damaged parents have children not to love, but to be loved. How they
put their children in the position of parenting their parents, and how this
gets passed down through the generations.

Thanks for letting me vent.

You've got to get it out there! Not too many chances in everyday
conversation to talk about these things...

* TL *

Don't you think you're not "gifted" enough for this book to be about you.
The "gift" it refers to is the ability to survive a childhood in conditions
where what you are naturally is "wrong", is not what a you are wanted or
expected to be.

Tina


"Tante Lina" wrote in message
k.net...
Diana Curtis wrote in message ...
Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what
I
can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the
veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat
respectfully
was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my
childhood...

This would explain why he would not like seeing you with another man.

and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts and ideas.

So I'm still trying to understand - at one time, he did express his
disapproval? Then, at some point, he stopped saying it, but the body
language is still there? Do you remember what happened at the time he
stopped verbalizing it? Was it at the time of the divorce? At a certain
age? After a blowup / estrangement with one of your siblings?

I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life
at a more lucrative job.
My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my
older
brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just
couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge
disappointment to him.

The one thought that came to my mind when I first read this, was the same
as
Lee's: he's disappointed in himself, and this is the way he deals with it.

I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he
would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be
affected
by it.

Even though your first job is to protect yourself, I would not rule out a
miracle for two reasons.

The book Passages describes how after midlife, men start to explore their
feminine side, women start to explore their masculine side. So for
instance, many women start successful businesses in the second half of
their
lives. Men often get very wrapped up in their grandkids.
Although, at some time long ago, his emotional development was arrested,
as
he gets older there is going to be a natural pull toward family.

Also, as people age, they begin to experience the deaths of friends,
colleagues, and loved ones. Eventually this leads them to confront the
possibility of their own life's end. It's a natural desire to want to
make
peace with one's past while there's still time.

These impulses may be stirring in your father, however weakly.

I say this because I had a similar problem with my father. Although I
"solved" it by removing myself from him, and stopping him from saying the
things that hurt me, I now wish I had occasionally had it out with him -
to
express my side of the story, if nothing else. He died unexpectedly at a
relatively young age, and now I will never get the chance to say my
peace -
whatever his reaction.

I agree with Celine, working with a counselor would help you draft that
letter you need to write him - to get it out there while he's still
living.
Whether he changes or not, you will feel better. And there's the million
to
one chance he might surprise you. Sometimes we have to be content with
planting a seed.

What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew? Unproductive.

Have you ever read the book "Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller?
I
think it would be very cathartic for you to read, and Kathy too. It's
about
how damaged parents have children not to love, but to be loved. How they
put their children in the position of parenting their parents, and how
this
gets passed down through the generations.

Thanks for letting me vent.

You've got to get it out there! Not too many chances in everyday
conversation to talk about these things...

* TL *

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:19:17 GMT, "Tante Lina"
wrote:


The book Passages describes how after midlife, men start to explore their
feminine side, women start to explore their masculine side. So for
instance, many women start successful businesses in the second half of their
lives. Men often get very wrapped up in their grandkids.
Although, at some time long ago, his emotional development was arrested, as
he gets older there is going to be a natural pull toward family.

I think I got this one backward. All my life people
told me that I should have been born male. I always liked to
climb trees, then mountains, work with tools, run things, etc.
I liked being boss on the job and run the household at home.
Now, I just dote on my kids and wish I had been a better
mother when they were younger. Even though they are
both doing well in life and don't see me as having been a
"bad mother". Well, except during that adolescent phase
when all kids think their parents are terrible.

Also, as people age, It's a natural desire to want to make
peace with one's past while there's still time.

I say this because I had a similar problem with my father. I now wish I had
occasionally had it out with him - to
express my side of the story, if nothing else. He died unexpectedly at a
relatively young age, and now I will never get the chance to say my peace -

Maybe you need to write a letter to him. Say your piece.
I stood on my natural father's grave and vented to get it out of
my system. Now I tend his irises (which I brought home to
St. Louis) and visualize his happiness and amazement at
who I have turned out to be. He's beyond the body now.
I'm sure he's seeing much more clearly.


Barbara
Dream Master
www.dreamweaverstudio.com

"We've got two lives, one we're given,
the other one we make."
Mary Chapin Carpenter