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  #21  
Old January 15th 04, 10:03 PM
Dianne Lewandowski
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Karen C - California wrote:
So don't let your community tell you they "can't afford"
this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be bothered to
make the arrangements.


I agree.
Dianne

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  #22  
Old January 15th 04, 10:06 PM
Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply
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Message for animaux
From: Cheryl Isaak


.... But I will continue to skip the opera - those poor singers can sound like
they are in such pain. LOL


I am not "into" what I call heavy opera -- Wagner and such. I DO like light
opera -- Gilbert & Sullivan for instance and just about any type of choral
(sp?) programmes. I'm not sure if my dislike of "heavy opera" is because I
don't understand it (language barriers and all that) or just because it sounds
so melodramatic. then again, I have never attended any "heavy opera"
performances and that might have something to do with it. I should imagine if
you can *see* what is going on during the performanc, it would make it more
easily understood and hence be more enjoyable.
Of course, ANY Bugs Bunny or Daffy performance that includes "heavy opera"
IS imminently enjoyable and quite acceptable to my way of thinking :-)))!
CiaoMeow ^;;^
..


PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^ Queen of Kitties
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their
WHISKERS!!
Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!

  #23  
Old January 15th 04, 10:14 PM
Dianne Lewandowski
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Cheryl Isaak wrote:
To my comment:Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for
the education
of children in my community.


Cheryl opined:
I don't happen to agree with you, I don't get into the "it takes a village"
thing which takes away parental responsibility and gives it to group that
has agendas that I don't agree with. BUT since you are so concerned run for
school board, join the PTA or other wise get involved! Don't just complain,
do something. Offer free piano lessons at the school or give a concert. I
don't know of literacy program that has enough help.


the "village" approach: And you think parents with children IN
school don't have agendas that are self-serving? To answer your last
statement: If you lived here, and lived in my shoes, you'd understand
why that's not possible. I have never been a person to just "complain".
I have ALWAYS been very active - including school boards and a major
landscape restructuring for an entire town. Loads of volunteer time.
Until we came here.

What exits with in a reasonable distance? Remember, school starts at A. The
soonest the buses can leave is 10 minutes later. Then the drive down and
factor in lunch time and the drive back. And time to return to classrooms
and getting back on the bus to go home at B. And a fudge factor for
traffic... How much of the day is left to see anything?


Taking children out of the classroom to visit Lambeau Field isn't a
field trip of any educational importance. So, if the district is so
poor they can't afford something of cultural or educational merit, they
should sit in a classroom and listen to a concert, opera, read books on
art . . . whatever.

Ok - since you aren't "sports minded" how about the food services, the power
plant, all the behind the scenes management.


Now THAT impresses me and I feel is an important engagement for
students. If a district can't afford a trip to a museum, then this is
the next best thing. You'll get no argument from me.

Then I said: Children, especially children who come from poor,
less-culturally
advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
what I'm trying to say.


To which Cheryl retorted:
BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library.


You're dreaming. You don't get it. Nor do you understand what I'm
trying to say.

But if a trip to Lambeau Field sparks something else - an interest in
grounds keeping even, then it serves multiple functions. Think outside the
box.


Oh, an opera or master painting won't inspire anyone, but a trip to
Lambeau Field might inspire grounds keeping? I don't mind outside of
the box thinking, but rationalization for an agenda that doesn't include
real culture???

Dianne


  #25  
Old January 15th 04, 10:48 PM
Karen C - California
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In article , Cheryl Isaak
writes:

Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
broadcast, which is free.

You're lucky - Saturdays here are talk shows or the folk/Celtic programs.
There is a classical station, but I'd swear it only plays the same few
things over and over.


KXPR webcasts (www.csus.edu/npr), as does WMUH
(http://www.muhlenberg.edu/wmuh/), both of which run the TexMet. The MetOp
website has a list of stations and times, so just surf around till you find one
with a webcast.

Forgot to mention "your local college" as a convenient source of inexpensive
culture. City College does plays every semester, CRC is actually the home to a
drama competition. Most colleges have orchestras, choirs, etc. Some have art
galleries.

Call the college(s) and get on the Music Dept, Art Dept, Drama Dept and Chapel
mailing lists, and you'll have culture out the yin-yang, most of it free or
just a few bucks. "In season", when the senior music majors had to put on a
recital, we had several performances a week. I can't play for diddly, but I
can read music, so I was on the Music Dept list as a page-turner for the
keyboard recitals, and did quite a few. Will work for coffee-and-cake

Establish ties with the various departments and you can get cheap bus trips out
of the immediate area. Once all the French students had had the opportunity to
sign up for the trip to NYC for a French opera, the rest of the seats on the
bus were put up for "the college community at large", meaning not only
professors, but their friends/relatives/neighbors..... We also had a weekly
lecture series -- sometimes our professors, sometimes guest lecturers of note,
always educational, and always free.

My local ethnic society puts on a number of cultural events every year. Once a
month, there's a lecture. In two weeks is a concert by the chorus, and another
in February. March has Springfest. Costs me $15 a year to be a member and get
the newsletter/calendar, but most events are free. If it's not *your* ethnic
group, it's usually no problem to find someone who can enlighten you to the
gist of the songs, why there's a filthy chimney sweep wandering around (good
luck), what IS this stuff on my plate?! We loooooooooove teaching kids about
our culture and history.

Network -- someone in your social circle knows someone whose brother plays in
the Backstreet Bagpipers, or whose preacher's in-laws run the youth orchestra.
A good friend of mine is in the Jazz Society; you tell me what variety of music
you want to hear, and after next Sunday's meeting, he'll have phone numbers for
you for classical, brass, you name it -- musicians flock together, and the jazz
band fiddler may be married to the conductor of Tuba Christmas, or to the lady
who teaches Irish step dancing.

http://www.spebsqsa.org/ will connect you to a barbershop chorus near you --
again, even if BSQ is not your idea of music, some of their singers will know
about Sing-it-Yourself Messiah or madrigals, because they do both. Once you
put the word out that you're looking for free concerts, you'll hear about more
than you have time for, but it's not something most of us will tell you upfront
"Hi, I'm Karen, and if you want to hear Canterbury Tales, my library is
reciting it next Saturday".


--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Guide the Hands (2d
one)

Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html
  #26  
Old January 15th 04, 11:18 PM
Jan Lennie
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We have the 'culture seasons' here in our parks too. They give a really good
mix through all the 'youth culture' music to light or heavy classical ,
opera and jazz. During the day we have for the children poets , magicians,
street entertainers and story tellers. this is all during the (too long!!!)
summer holidays.
In our arboretum they have seasonal shows (winter wonderland , autumn
colours , spring wake up time and summer burst)
Our museums all have programmes to involve children in history - making
their own coins , Chinese lanterns , we have a dragon boat race,lots of
nature trail's. Bat search nights , children's archaeology groups. Library's
have weekly story time for toddlers with colouring and nursery rhymes. In
winter we have nighty night time where everybody wears pj's or nighties and
takes a teddy bear or 'cuddly' and story's are told with hot chocolate and
biscuits (cookies) given out . Halloween we dress up and go for stories by
candlelight.
All these things are either free ( and subsidised by local firms) or cost a
small nominal fee. The onus being on the parents to get the children or
themselves involved . I live in a small village with very little public
transport and a big population of one parent family's ( we are annexed to a
large RAF base with lots of father's and in the past few years mothers away
for varying times) and the activities are always well supported .
Jan
"Cheryl Isaak" wrote in message
...
On 1/15/04 3:14 PM, in article

,
"Karen C - California" wrote:

In article , Cheryl Isaak
writes:

BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library.

I
never heard an opera until high school


Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan

Opera
broadcast, which is free.

You're lucky - Saturdays here are talk shows or the folk/Celtic programs.
There is a classical station, but I'd swear it only plays the same few
things over and over.

PBS broadcasts at least one opera per year, as well as "good music"

concerts.
Again -- free. You don't need cable to watch PBS.

Here you do - no reception with out the huge antennae.


Bundled in with the $12 basic cable service (local stations only) are a

couple
of "local access/community/educational" stations. They broadcast

student
concerts, school plays, intro to art, some telecourses from the local
colleges,
educational material not produced locally (e.g., a series poking around
Historic Williamsburg), and, late at night, Classic Arts Showcase

(classical
music videos, bits of classic films, parts of plays, photos of
paintings/sculptures with accompanying music).

Lucky - I didn't mind dropping cable, nothing like that on the local

access.
But there was the Wicca group that were the subject of letters to the

editor
at the local papers. (those were pretty funny!)

Where I grew up, there were concerts in the parks most summer nights.

You
could bring your own cold drinks and food. One night might be a

barbershop
quartet, the next night a performance by a teen summer drama program, a

dress
rehearsal from a nearby professional opera or orchestra, ethnic

celebrations,
etc. We got a wide range of culture for a couple cents gasoline. From

having
performed repeatedly at one of these programs, I can tell you that the
performers did not get paid: the only cost to the county was a little
electricity for the stage lights. If there was a Xeroxed program, ads

were
sold to sponsors. So don't let your community tell you they "can't

afford"
this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be

bothered to
make the arrangements.

Amen to that. Last Olde Home Days (town pride type thing) we got the local
head bangers/heavy metal bands. Ouch! But the next town over does get

some
decent stuff - choral groups, barbershop etc...

But I will continue to skip the opera - those poor singers can sound like
they are in such pain. LOL

Cheryl



  #27  
Old January 15th 04, 11:42 PM
Cheryl Isaak
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On 1/15/04 4:14 PM, in article ,
"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote:

Dianne
Once again we are on different sides of the highway.
Cheryl Isaak wrote:
To my comment:Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for
the education
of children in my community.


Cheryl opined:
I don't happen to agree with you, I don't get into the "it takes a village"
thing which takes away parental responsibility and gives it to group that
has agendas that I don't agree with. BUT since you are so concerned run for
school board, join the PTA or other wise get involved! Don't just complain,
do something. Offer free piano lessons at the school or give a concert. I
don't know of literacy program that has enough help.


the "village" approach: And you think parents with children IN
school don't have agendas that are self-serving?


Yes, but I can say NO, I don't want my child to attend that program or can
pull him/her out of class if the discussion is something I don't agree with.
The role of public education is to provide the basics - reading, writing,
math, civics, history, science. Not to promote Scientology, Creationism or
fringe topics. And certainly not moral values. It is my responsibility to
educate my children on religious and moral issues - I don't want some one
else to do that or taking away my right to do so. And certain issues don't
belong in school.


To answer your last
statement: If you lived here, and lived in my shoes, you'd understand
why that's not possible.

Anything is possible. If it is an issue you are concerned enough about to
take action.

I have never been a person to just "complain".
I have ALWAYS been very active - including school boards and a major
landscape restructuring for an entire town. Loads of volunteer time.
Until we came here.

So get involved again!

What exits with in a reasonable distance? Remember, school starts at A. The
soonest the buses can leave is 10 minutes later. Then the drive down and
factor in lunch time and the drive back. And time to return to classrooms
and getting back on the bus to go home at B. And a fudge factor for
traffic... How much of the day is left to see anything?


Taking children out of the classroom to visit Lambeau Field isn't a
field trip of any educational importance. So, if the district is so
poor they can't afford something of cultural or educational merit, they
should sit in a classroom and listen to a concert, opera, read books on
art . . . whatever.

Ok - since you aren't "sports minded" how about the food services, the power
plant, all the behind the scenes management.


Now THAT impresses me and I feel is an important engagement for
students. If a district can't afford a trip to a museum, then this is
the next best thing. You'll get no argument from me.


I'd bet they see the same kind of things at Lambeau Field - doesn't it also
hold concerts, have a grounds crew that has to maintain the surface, a power
plant.... I'd bet they just don't kiss the hallowed ground.

Then I said: Children, especially children who come from poor,
less-culturally
advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
what I'm trying to say.


To which Cheryl retorted:
BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library.


You're dreaming. You don't get it. Nor do you understand what I'm
trying to say.


No - read what I said further down - I don't think operas, plays or art
museums are appropriate for trips for students under the age of 15 or 16.
Some emotional maturity is needed. There is a better way to do it for the
younger students.
And what are the art and music teachers covering? Even my little back woods
town teacher showed slides covering art history. Music was more than just
singing - beat, reading music....

But if a trip to Lambeau Field sparks something else - an interest in
grounds keeping even, then it serves multiple functions. Think outside the
box.


Oh, an opera or master painting won't inspire anyone, but a trip to
Lambeau Field might inspire grounds keeping? I don't mind outside of
the box thinking, but rationalization for an agenda that doesn't include
real culture???

No, I said, a child won't see past the pretty picture, the nude lady or the
strange language. And a slide show from a visiting lecturer is more likely
do some good than trip to a museum. After all, you are looking for
appreciation not confusion and distaste.

And the trip to Lambeau Field might spark an interest in engineering or
business. Also worthy things.

And sport is part of the broad spectrum of culture; you just consider it
beneath you. I abhor opera, I'd rather listen to some of today's pop music
(the acoustic stuff, no guitar rock for me). I don't like Jason Pollock, do
like some of the Impressionists in a vague way, just generally prefer works
from the Italian Renaissance. I'd rather go to a hockey game than a
classical concert; I don't feel like having a liberal snob look down their
nose at my lack of diamonds and designer labels or worse, my political
beliefs. If I want to listen to classical, I'll pull out my CDs.


Dear Dianne, lets just agree to disagree on this. I don't know all the ins
and outs of your town any more than you do mine. I suspect they are more
alike than you'd ever want to admit. I want what is right and proper for my
children and for all children, an education of the absolute basics, reading,
writing, math, history, civics, science and general art and music. The
parents have responsibilities here too. And interesting educational
opportunities can take the strangest forms.

Cheryl
Cheryl

  #28  
Old January 16th 04, 12:03 AM
Cheryl Isaak
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What a great bunch of ideas!

The local colleges tend to be "technical" or "teacher" colleges. But I'll
see what's around. As long its practical and appropriate. I wish there was
the Capitol Center for the Arts was still affordable; at $8 a student it
isn't.

Cheryl

  #29  
Old January 16th 04, 01:00 AM
Dianne Lewandowski
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Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Yes, but I can say NO, I don't want my child to attend that program or can
pull him/her out of class if the discussion is something I don't agree with.
The role of public education is to provide the basics - reading, writing,
math, civics, history, science. Not to promote Scientology, Creationism or
fringe topics. And certainly not moral values. It is my responsibility to
educate my children on religious and moral issues - I don't want some one
else to do that or taking away my right to do so. And certain issues don't
belong in school.


And you think visits to a football field are a necessary part of
education? Where did the conversation on morals and religion enter my
discussion? I certainly never brought it up.

I agree with you in your above statements. But culture shouldn't be
absent from school . . . it is a part of our "humanities". I'm not an
opera fan. I've tried. But I have enjoyed immensely some "lighter"
operas, and many *heavy* arias. If you don't open up a child's ear, you
lose him forever. These are things that a child has to be surrounded
with from birth. You don't wake up at 16 and decide you like Picasso.

So get involved again!


You are irritating the heck out of me. I TRIED to get involved. For
eight years we BOTH tried valiently. It almost killed us emotionally.
This is a small, backward town. We are outsiders. And I think if I
hear one more time: "then move" I may just lose it.

What you have to do is stop thinking about YOUR situation and understand
that not everywhere in the U.S. is the same. I read your entire post.
I've answered it above. I disagree with you. Your circumstances are
different than mine.

While we're at it: If you don't think it takes a village, and if you
don't think I should have any input, then maybe you don't want my tax
dollars, either.

No, I said, a child won't see past the pretty picture, the nude lady or the
strange language. And a slide show from a visiting lecturer is more likely
do some good than trip to a museum. After all, you are looking for
appreciation not confusion and distaste.


You have a very narrow view, I'm afraid.

And sport is part of the broad spectrum of culture; you just consider it
beneath you.


No, I don't. But you, obviously, think it should be right up there at
the top of the list. I think ALL these things are a part of being human
and one does not deserve more attention than another. THAT'S my point.

The only diamond I have is my mother's and grandmother's put into one
ring. I don't wear designer anything because I refuse to advertise for
them. Who in their right mind wants "Gucci" printed all over their
evening wear?

Liberal? No. Centrist, Yes. Basic education? Absolutely. Including
the basics of art, literature, music. A modicum of sports presented in
a healthy, team-spirited intent.

Dianne


  #30  
Old January 16th 04, 01:16 AM
Karen C - California
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In article ,
ekoluvr (Tia Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) writes:

Of course, ANY Bugs Bunny or Daffy performance that includes "heavy opera"
IS imminently enjoyable and quite acceptable to my way of thinking :-)))!


Getcher butt out here! At this time of year, with all the rain and dark days,
Looney Tunes Musical Masterpieces is a frequent visitor to the VCR!

Weeeeeetuwwwwn my wuvvvvv!

For a fun experience with heavy opera, get The Anna Russell Album. She hits
the highlights of The Ring Cycle in 18 minutes, concluding high pitched, nasal
voice, British accent "And here you ahhhh, twennnnty-threee
aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhrrrs later, RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED!!!!" Thereupon, you
play your serious Ring Cycle CD, and ROFLMAOWTIMEWPIMP because you can't hear
the music without thinking of how she skewered it!

(I'll have to have Mom try to track down MY version of the Ring, including a
bunch of mermaids singing "My beer is Rheingold, the dry beer" and one of the
lovesick wailing "Since my baby left me, I found a new place to dwell, it's
down the end of Lonely Street, the Heartbreak Hotel", while the guy fashioning
the magic ring sings "Take a ring, and add another ring, and add another ring,
and now you've got three rings, Ballantyne!". Hey -- it's a German opera, and
what's more German than beer?)

Oh, Bwunnhiwwwde, you're so wuvwy!
Yes, I know it, I cahn't help it!


--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Guide the Hands (2d
one)

Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html
 




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