Ot i wanted for once to see

From: "Aynthem"

Perhaps the solution is to simply get rid of religions. ................

Sounds good but wouldn't work with humans! We need that "higher" entity --
who or what ever it may be -- to thank or blame as the case may be.
I would like to remind everyone that Jewish is a religion not a nationality.
The people who are citizens of Israel are Israelis -- not *necessarily* Jews.
Just a passing thought I wanted to send out to those more deeply involved in
this thread. CiaoMeow ^;;^
..


PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their
WHISKERS!!
Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!

Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote:
Double standards Dianne ,

By whom? Each of us here has different standards, Mirjam. We are not a
monolith.

You didn't "pour out your feelings", you condemned us for having said
nothing.

May you or none of you never be in my/ our place ,, When i pour my
feelings in one way you call me whining and playing victim , when i
speak from my heart another time you call it condemming ......

When exactly did Dianne ever call you whining or playing the victim?

Yes i was telling you that i was hoping just for once that this group
will be different , but you can`t .. And i do not know what this
comparison with Dutchie does here ....

Different than what?

The comparison with Dutchie points out that she brought her feelings to
us and people could commiserate with her. You come accusing us and
wonder why you get anger in response.

There's a difference. Rueben (Dutchie) poured out her heart. We
responded with well wishes and simple advice.

You poured out your anger. I simply didn't know how to respond to your
post. But that didn't mean that I was in any less pain over the war and
death that both Palestine and Isreal are suffering.

If you think this is anger , lady are you lucky , and have you had a
shelterd life , even with your last hard life .Those who wanted knew
how to respond ,..On other Ngs and lists people Phoned, in this ng ...
Chocolade and ...petrol prices are more important ,,,,

So your complaint isn't that none of us cared about the bombing, it's
that none of us here cared enough *about you* to phone you. You reap
what you sow Mirjam. And you have no way of knowing which of us here
checked in with our friends in Israel. Nor did all of us post about
petrol prices and chocolate. But don't let that stop you from lumping
us all into one.

I simply don't know how we're going to stop religious zealots. We're
dealing with zealots of all kinds in our own country. They are frightening.

And Dianne you better start thinking about those Zealots before they
blow up somethnmg else in your country or have you forgotten the Twin
towers , blown up by the same school of thought.
By condeming their acts you give them a blow at a time , by keeping
quiet you encourage them !!!!!

How do you know that any of us are keeping quiet? Not posting about it
to a needlework group does not mean that we are keeping quiet where it
matters. Perhaps you should put a little more energy into things that
matter and stop continually chastising the people on this group for not
meeting your warped expectations (and yes, I think expecting a phone
call from people with whom you are not on good terms is warped).

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

wrote:
On 23 Aug 2003 19:16:35 -0500, "Aynthem" wrote:

As the mean and heartless atheist who looks at this from a historical
standpoint, these two tribes have been battling each other for four? six?
umpetty-ump? millennia

I believe the Israelis moved in somewhere around 1948

I'd say that's a simplistic and rather inflamatory answer, Sheena.
There have always been Jews in that area. The number began to increase
markedly in the late nineteenth century as Jewish people fled
persecution in Europe. For the most part, they bought land from
absentee landlords and set about making a living for themselves.
Sometimes they lived peacefully with the Arab populations and sometimes
they didn't. Often when they didn't it had more to do with outside
agitation than their own wishes to cause trouble.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

in article ,
at wrote on 8/24/03
6:42 AM:

It's a stalemate. With US assistance the Israelis have the fire
power to enforce their will. Doing so reinforces the Arab bitterness
and causes them to fight back in whatever way they can, people do when
they have nothing more to lose.

I don't expect the situation to
change much during my lifetime.

Sheena
---------------

And it probably never will. There has been ongoing trouble in that part of
the world long before the Balfour Agreement and the resettlement in 47-48
and on and on.

Many in the US resent the huge amount of money that has been funneled into
this area to help them solve their problems.

It's really sad.

Patricia

We would be the first to apploud it as we are have to vclose our
industry as Usa exports her unemployment to us and other countries ,
by 'Giving " aid in the form of things madeby American workers , If
you will not Give that you will have Unemployment , Thus You 'Aid
other countries , get political influence and have WORK ,,
mirjam
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:41:39 GMT, "Dr. Brat"
wrote:

toni ferrick wrote:
I have 2 questions--I know they are dumb but I just have to ask?

1. Why are there more jews in NYC than in Israel?
2. Why can't we just leave them alone and let Israel defend themselves how
they see fit? They did fine the last time.

If by "leave them alone" you include cutting foreign and military aid to
Israel (and everybody else, thank you very much), I'm all for it.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

On this list you keep quiet
and that is what i know of your political activity ..
I speak act and behave every where in the same manner if i am against
some political thing and i see it expressed here i will react to it
here that same way i do outside , I am one person with one face not
many .
mirjam
And who says I'm keeping quiet? Just because I said nothing here
doesn't mean I'm being quiet. You have no idea at all what I do in the
background - when I'm not reading/posting here.

I give zealots courage when I act, think and talk "fear". I'm not gonna
do that - as long as it's possible for me to behave otherwise. I may
not have known the fear of war and cruelty like those during WWII or
under regimes such as Pol Pot or Edi Amin, but I know fear for my life,
and being helpless to stop it. You are not the only one, Mirjam. You
know nothing about me.

Dianne

Elizabeth , double standard by the many people who can tell here evert
tiny little thing that bugs them ,,, but Oh if i ever do it ,,
immidaitely i am flamed and attacked ,,, look waht you are doing i
wondered why there was not one knid word about the killing of babies
and it turns into an attack on me and on the country ,,,, not on the
attackers , but on the attacked ......
As to having different standards ,,,, Mazal tov , my best wishes ,.
you finnaly aggree with me , for years i have been saying that the
people here react as if the whole world, looks like their town, it
doesn`t I HAVE BEEN WRITING time and again Elizabeth THAT ALL HAVE
Different Standards and none of you agreed ,now SUDDENLY you claim it
By whom? Each of us here has different standards, Mirjam. We are not a
monolith.
Well nice!!! that you get finnaly to my ideas,

When exactly did Dianne ever call you whining or playing the victim?
I do remember her joining this group who claims thuis ridicolous
claim.
comparison with Dutchie does here ....

Different than what?
i did not bring up this comparison with Dutchie , Dianne did , have no
clue why ???

The comparison with Dutchie points out that she brought her feelings to
us and people could commiserate with her. You come accusing us and
wonder why you get anger in response.
Oh now i am accusing ???no i was wondering , about this group who has
time to speak about petrol , hitting kids , lonely mother
telemarketing Catholics pedophiles etc etc etc .... But not one owrd
about a group of kids murdered just like that. in vicious attack.
th well wishes and simple advice.
So your complaint isn't that none of us cared about the bombing, it's
that none of us here cared enough *about you* to phone you. You reap
what you sow Mirjam. And you have no way of knowing which of us here
checked in with our friends in Israel. Nor did all of us post about
petrol prices and chocolate. But don't let that stop you from lumping
us all into one.
Isn`t that typical of you and others here, you know very well i didn`t
expect any phone calls , but i did expect some note about the murder ,
not to me , to all ,,,,Now you blame me personally for nobody saying
any word..don`1t make me laugh , this has nothing to do with me and
you know it , Here are some people , LIKE YOU who claim that they are
ALL human , not long ago you claime Theodor Hertzel was part of you
HUMANISTIC heritage , so if your humanistic Heritage includes him ,
why doesn`t you Humanistic heritage allow you to say a plain
condolences about the loss of some kids ????
And you are right i do not know whether you did or didn`t check with
any Israeli Friend, and that is a different matter all together .
How do you know that any of us are keeping quiet? Not posting about it
to a needlework group does not mean that we are keeping quiet where it
matters. Perhaps you should put a little more energy into things that
Now who is assuming and putting her foot in her mouth , i do work for
peace more than you can know , and i do lots of stuff that does matter
, and by the way reading this kinds of reactions matters a lot , so
one knows how incitement and false facts are spread all over the net.
matter and stop continually chastising the people on this group for not
meeting your warped expectations
Yes of course i have warped expectations ,,, I am different remember
you yourself wrote we all have our different standards , and as i told
you before this is the ONLY ng where many unkind posts are written and
i use to learn and understand why people hate so much ,,,,and to blame
me for causing it becuase i dare answer back , and do not Obey to your
standards is the warped expectation you have
mirjam

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

I'd say that's a simplistic and rather inflamatory answer, Sheena.
There have always been Jews in that area. The number began to increase
markedly in the late nineteenth century as Jewish people fled
persecution in Europe. For the most part, they bought land from
absentee landlords and set about making a living for themselves.
Sometimes they lived peacefully with the Arab populations and sometimes
they didn't. Often when they didn't it had more to do with outside
agitation than their own wishes to cause trouble.

Elizabeth
Thank you Elizabeth [ I have not seen the original post ] for this
almost accurate explanation and correcting Sheena `s incitive post=
with deliberate false facts.
.
True, it's simplistic, but not inflammatory. Can it be denied that
since 1948 the numbers of people coming to live in Israel who had no
connection to the land for eons have escalated and increased the
trouble?
What do you mean No connection to the land ,, sure my Family has more
connection to the land of Israel than yours had to Canada when they
Emigrated there from Europe .My family always spoke Hebrew and dreamed
to go back .

They encouraged more to come and 'reclaim' land. Think of how the
West Bank situation has been, still is, being handled. Arab houses
mowed down and settlements put up, including forbidding Arabs to visit
some of their religious sites.
In 1967 When Egypt and Syria ATTAcked Israel and the west bank was
under Jordanian rule , and still night after night murderes occured on
the borders , Israel Adviced King Housein Not to join the war , He
answered by Bombing Jerushalyiem , in such heavy fire that our forces
had to stop this fire and thus rejoined the TEMPLE mount .and The
Jewish Quarter of Jerushalayiem ,, so please do nor distort the
history , they attacked even when there were no settlements,,,they
shot into our classes in the University
I believe they have to expect the Arabs to fight as they take land
from them which their ancestors lived on for the known past.
This is also not exactly true as most Arabs here came at the same time
as the Jewish pioneers and British mandate provided work .
Most of all I feel that telling me I must never forget how terrible
the holocaust was (and I am not a nay sayer, I know that it happened
and it was a shameful thing) while I can see them perpetrating
horrors on Palestinians seems to say to me that they have convenient
memories or that it is okay for them to do what they condemn in
another.
i am not goping to answer this deliberate inflamotory remark ,, and i
have more than once claimed here that i am for dividing the country ,
something which Mr Arrafat does his best to undermine everytime he has
a chance .
With US assistance the Israelis have the fire
power to enforce their will. Doing so reinforces the Arab bitterness
and causes them to fight back in whatever way they can, people do when
they have nothing more to lose. I don't expect the situation to
change much during my lifetime.
You will be surprised ,,,
mirjam

Sheena

And let`s not forget the American Indians and the Eskimo !!!
in USA and Canada !!!And The American Africans who were brought as
Slaves for the white people who Escaped Religious or economic problems
in Europe , Yes Elizabeth history is full of injustice ,,, lets talk
about them all . And of course the Irish and Scots etc,,,
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:43:24 GMT, "Dr. Brat"
wrote:

Dianne Lewandowski wrote:
Husband and I watched the "History" channel last night. We were both
awestruck and unaware at what happened to Czechs during WWII. At the
end, they showed the monument built for the children killed in the one
city. So many slaughtered of all ages and philosophy. And the cruelty.

And not just the Czechs, Dianne. The Poles and the Ukrainians and the
Serbs and the Jews and the Chechens and the Tatars (obviously Hitler
wasn't the only one at work on this list)... it goes on and on.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Thank you Dawne !
I found that in my art and teaching classes i made a difference ,
still make a difference.
Maybe it will. Maybe someday the hearts and minds of people everywhere
I have iniated a Week at the end of each study year where all students
for handwork Guides , meet and stay together for a whole week , many
barrieres of prejuduces have been broken. and several friendships have
aprouted from it. But the main result is knowing about each other
existance.
killing, it can stop. Ireland seemed finally, after many bloodsoaked
many a time we see in Haifa that the people want to share their life ,
it seems that some hidden political forces mix and incite between the
groups. The problem here is mainly political , but there are forces
who try to turn it into a religious war , and that is bad.
but the path to that point was tortuous.
As ours will be , but eventually i believe we will get there .
Neither, with respect, is posting to a newsgroup.
First in this Ng people write about many subjects , so i think mine
are as relevant as those other posts.
Also i have found that many people learn through ,my posts about
details and facts they would not have known , from Tv, press or other
communications.
perhaps one should write to one's political leaders--but then again,
political leaders i write and phone , and sign pettitions, AndVOTE for
or against. I do not march but i do write , take part in public
debates, public meetings. etc,,,, and aily by going on with my life
with the mixws communities we have here.
is better than bullets.
You don`t have to say this to me .
sometimes smack back,
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind, as Gandhi said. Canadians, to a
fair extent, do not get involved, as a country , in "smacking back", but
have always been willing to stand between the combattants.
I respect the Canadians stand , and when we will have your Neighbours
this will apply to us as well ..
people killed in the bombing in Bagdad were Canadians, one working with
UNICEF, one with the Christian Children's Fund.
let me resend my condolences to all the people hurt in Iraq.
But each nation must
is what it does, and what Israel does is what its people feel it must do.
it is Not always a ,matter of choise.
me i thank them with all my heart and wish them a 'Boring day" .
I would join you in those wishes. All security guards, all peacekeeping
battallions, all bomb squads, may they have many long and boring days.
Thank you !!!!
ad indeed. And there is no religion on earth that hasn't been tarnished
by some fool or another doing evil in its name. Which makes it incumbent
on the rest of us to do good.
Dawne
You know we agree on that , and i am trying to do my share , and just
because i do it , i spoke as i spoke , not from the warm security of
my house , but from the endangered streets.
thank you
For being honest , serious , human and discussing it on equal level
with me .
mirjam