If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
elma ox-hydrogen chemistry ?
thre is a lIt for the Elma ox-hydrogen torch that consists of boric acid and potassium hydroxide am I correct in assumin the potassium hydrogex is used to dry the gfas and the boric acid to be mixed with wood alcohol so that the temperature of the flam is decreased and the boric acid deposited acting as a flux? the reason i am asking is that i have a old oxy-hydrogen torch (googling not to helpful) no manuals an would like to try getting it working any info is appreciated -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:29:55 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry ilaboo
wrote: thre is a lIt for the Elma ox-hydrogen torch that consists of boric acid and potassium hydroxide am I correct in assumin the potassium hydrogex is used to dry the gfas and the boric acid to be mixed with wood alcohol so that the temperature of the flam is decreased and the boric acid deposited acting as a flux? the reason i am asking is that i have a old oxy-hydrogen torch (googling not to helpful) no manuals an would like to try getting it working any info is appreciated I don't know about the elma torch, as I'm not familier with it. There are two basic types of oxy/hydrogen torches in general use. One is a traditional torch using a compressed hydrogen tank and compressed oxygen tank. Those are generally used without additional hardware, just like an oxy/acetylene torch would be used, with the mix of hydrogen and oxygen being adjusted to give the desired flame. I suspect that you're talking, instead, about the "water" torches, which use electrolysis of water to produce the oxygen and hydrogen. These generally have no provision for altering the ratio of oxygen and hydrogen, which would normally tend to produce a fiercly hot flame. To modify this, most of these torches imploy a vapor fluxing unit, which bubbles the mixed oxygen and hydrogen through a solvent mix before it gets to the torch head. Commonly, this can be Methanol or acetone or another solvent, and it's often also mixed with boric acid as a fluxing agent to reduce oxidation on the workpiece, though the most important part of the fluxing unit is just the solvent, to modify the flame temperatures.. There are several actual mixes that can be used in the vapor fluxing unit, each giving a different flame temperature, in order to fine tune the torch to the type of work being done. All of the "water" torches I've seen state that operation of the torch without a proper solution in the fluxing unit can/will damage the torch, either due to excessive flame temperatures damaging the tips, or perhaps by allowing the possibility of a dangerous flame blowback from the torch tip into the torch. I'm not sure which is the case. Perhaps both. Meanwhile, the potassium hydroxide is used within the main body of the torch, mixed with the water which is broken down by the electric current to produce the oxygen and hydrogen. It's there as the electrolyte. Without it, current would not pass through the water, and your torch would not produce fuel and oxygen gas. The potassium hydroxide needs to only be added when the torch is first set up, or after the reservoir has been comepletely emptied and cleaned, as it's not normally used up in the operation of the torch. Only the water level needs to be topped up as it's used, and distilled or deionized water is normally the best to use, to avoid excessive build up of other mineral deposits within the torchs It's possible to buy both the appropriate fluxing solutions for the most commonly sold brands of these torches, and the premixed electrolyte solution for first filling the torch. Somewhere around here I've got the formulas for the recommended different fluxing solutions for the Krohn fluxed flame torch, which I'd assume would be the same for other brands. Let me know if you'd like me to dig those up again... I'm afraid I don't know the concentration of potassion hydroxide needed for the electrolyte. Perhaps some other reader can fill that in? Hope that helps. Peter Rowe |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
i appreciate your help on this--the main resevoir was all scalled up--i removewd a lot of it and i assummed it was from not using distilled water--i knew that some sort of electrolyte was needed but i did not realize it was potassium hydroxide tjanks peter On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:01:34 GMT, Peter W. Rowe pwrowe@ixDOTnetcomDOTcom wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:29:55 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry ilaboo wrote: thre is a lIt for the Elma ox-hydrogen torch that consists of boric acid and potassium hydroxide am I correct in assumin the potassium hydrogex is used to dry the gfas and the boric acid to be mixed with wood alcohol so that the temperature of the flam is decreased and the boric acid deposited acting as a flux? the reason i am asking is that i have a old oxy-hydrogen torch (googling not to helpful) no manuals an would like to try getting it working any info is appreciated I don't know about the elma torch, as I'm not familier with it. There are two basic types of oxy/hydrogen torches in general use. One is a traditional torch using a compressed hydrogen tank and compressed oxygen tank. Those are generally used without additional hardware, just like an oxy/acetylene torch would be used, with the mix of hydrogen and oxygen being adjusted to give the desired flame. I suspect that you're talking, instead, about the "water" torches, which use electrolysis of water to produce the oxygen and hydrogen. These generally have no provision for altering the ratio of oxygen and hydrogen, which would normally tend to produce a fiercly hot flame. To modify this, most of these torches imploy a vapor fluxing unit, which bubbles the mixed oxygen and hydrogen through a solvent mix before it gets to the torch head. Commonly, this can be Methanol or acetone or another solvent, and it's often also mixed with boric acid as a fluxing agent to reduce oxidation on the workpiece, though the most important part of the fluxing unit is just the solvent, to modify the flame temperatures.. There are several actual mixes that can be used in the vapor fluxing unit, each giving a different flame temperature, in order to fine tune the torch to the type of work being done. All of the "water" torches I've seen state that operation of the torch without a proper solution in the fluxing unit can/will damage the torch, either due to excessive flame temperatures damaging the tips, or perhaps by allowing the possibility of a dangerous flame blowback from the torch tip into the torch. I'm not sure which is the case. Perhaps both. Meanwhile, the potassium hydroxide is used within the main body of the torch, mixed with the water which is broken down by the electric current to produce the oxygen and hydrogen. It's there as the electrolyte. Without it, current would not pass through the water, and your torch would not produce fuel and oxygen gas. The potassium hydroxide needs to only be added when the torch is first set up, or after the reservoir has been comepletely emptied and cleaned, as it's not normally used up in the operation of the torch. Only the water level needs to be topped up as it's used, and distilled or deionized water is normally the best to use, to avoid excessive build up of other mineral deposits within the torchs It's possible to buy both the appropriate fluxing solutions for the most commonly sold brands of these torches, and the premixed electrolyte solution for first filling the torch. Somewhere around here I've got the formulas for the recommended different fluxing solutions for the Krohn fluxed flame torch, which I'd assume would be the same for other brands. Let me know if you'd like me to dig those up again... I'm afraid I don't know the concentration of potassion hydroxide needed for the electrolyte. Perhaps some other reader can fill that in? Hope that helps. Peter Rowe -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
I only know Elma for their ultrasonic cleaners. I have a few Hydrox units I
keep on the go but I wouldn,t like to offer specific advice without knowing the machine. You could try these people as they sell them. http://www.progresstool.com/elma2.html I hope they can help. Chris |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
AD: Taos Tesserae and Strange Glow/Experiments in Chemistry | Susan B. | Beads | 7 | November 21st 03 08:52 PM |