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#1
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Door Insert Strength
Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use? My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings! -- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry |
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#2
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if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and
allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use? My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings! -- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry |
#3
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Hi -
I do a lot of installations like the one you have described. "Sandwiching" the art glass between clear panes (i.e., tempered 1/8 inch) has created condensation problems here in Florida, where inside and outside temps are sometimes 30 degrees or more apart, and where outside temp is subject to drop significantly and quickly during our infamous afternoon showers. This is true even if the layers are left free to "breathe" by not sealing around the edges. I have seen best results with just a single layer of clear glass, almost always facing the outside. This provides plenty of support, protection from elements and vandals, and no condensation problems. For extra security, you can go to 1/4 inch tempered. Just my .02... Steve Roberts "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use? My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings! -- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry |
#4
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if you use weep holes properly, condensation should not be a problem, no
matter the temp. m "Steve Roberts" wrote in message hlink.net... Hi - I do a lot of installations like the one you have described. "Sandwiching" the art glass between clear panes (i.e., tempered 1/8 inch) has created condensation problems here in Florida, where inside and outside temps are sometimes 30 degrees or more apart, and where outside temp is subject to drop significantly and quickly during our infamous afternoon showers. This is true even if the layers are left free to "breathe" by not sealing around the edges. I have seen best results with just a single layer of clear glass, almost always facing the outside. This provides plenty of support, protection from elements and vandals, and no condensation problems. For extra security, you can go to 1/4 inch tempered. Just my .02... Steve Roberts "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use? My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings! -- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry |
#5
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Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed". Could
you explain it to me? I think I know what you said, but am not sure that what you said is the same thing that I think it is. Hal "Michele Blank" wrote in message ... if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use? My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings! -- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry |
#6
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it's just a fancy term for sandwiching the panel inside 2 sheets of tempered
glass. works well for doors that get a lot of action, slamming, etc. to prevent bulging down the road (without having to use ugly re-bar criss-crossing on one side). I do re-inforce heavily inside my lines with strongline to add strength. m "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed". Could you explain it to me? I think I know what you said, but am not sure that what you said is the same thing that I think it is. Hal "Michele Blank" wrote in message ... if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use? My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings! -- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry |
#7
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Having just gone through some of the same gyrations with a customer who
wouldn't listen to the voice of experience and reason, I'd like to pop in with a few words of advice. DON'T DO IT!!!!!!! Here's why: I'm assuming from your initial post that the door already has an opening that is 21x35, and that the current window is installed with some trim stops that are nailed into the opening on one side (usually on the interior). The existing glass is probably sealed into the door inside a milled ledge (a rabbett) with some sealant (silicone). The major problem you will run into is that the thickness of the door will likely not be enough to be adding additional layers of glass. Usually the rabbett and stop are milled to accept a particular type of glass panel. Adding additional thicknesses of glass or a SG panel will prevent you reinstalling the trim stops. Unless you are willing to undertake some major millwork operations, this can call a halt to the project in it's early stages. If there's room to put an insert in the door that is about 3/4 to 7/8" thick, then I'd suggest you put an insulated panel in. The 21 x35" opening will be the outside dimensions of the whole unit. The insulated panel has 3 layers, 2 sheets of tempered with the SG panel in the middle. You will have to have the IG unit built, (unless you have a squiggle machine and a tempering unit). The process is done with heat and pressure. The sealant (squiggle) is sort of a black "U" shaped channel of a rubbery looking stuff. They put the edge of your SG panel into the squiggle's "U", and sandwich the two tempered pieces and put it into the press. Your SG panel needs to be about 20.25"x 34.25", as the squiggle is about 5/16 to 3/8" thick, and the panel will "grow" if you make the SG to the finished size. You need to reduce the final size of the art glass by 3/8" all the way around. The best price I have been able to find here in Atlanta for someone to squiggle a SG panel, with them supplying the tempered glass, is about $27 per sq ft. The other issue is that a 6 sq ft IG window with SG in it is going to be really heavy and the door may not have enough strength to hold it in place if the kids are going to be slamming it...especially if you have to narrow the trim stops down to accomodate the added thickness of the new panel.. An IG unit requires 2 sheets of tempered. You can't seal one sheet to the SG without causing condensation. You can install the SG with one sheet of tempered just "in" the opening, without sealing it and "maybe" avoid the condensation problem. This is not a project for the faint of heart....I will NEVER do one of these again. "Michele Blank" wrote in message ... it's just a fancy term for sandwiching the panel inside 2 sheets of tempered glass. works well for doors that get a lot of action, slamming, etc. to prevent bulging down the road (without having to use ugly re-bar criss-crossing on one side). I do re-inforce heavily inside my lines with strongline to add strength. m "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed". Could you explain it to me? I think I know what you said, but am not sure that what you said is the same thing that I think it is. Hal "Michele Blank" wrote in message ... if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use? My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings! -- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry |
#8
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i have never encountered that particular problem as most of the doors in
these parts are a good inch thick or more. Making new stops for these doesn't require too much labor . m "Moonraker" wrote in message ... Having just gone through some of the same gyrations with a customer who wouldn't listen to the voice of experience and reason, I'd like to pop in with a few words of advice. DON'T DO IT!!!!!!! Here's why: I'm assuming from your initial post that the door already has an opening that is 21x35, and that the current window is installed with some trim stops that are nailed into the opening on one side (usually on the interior). The existing glass is probably sealed into the door inside a milled ledge (a rabbett) with some sealant (silicone). The major problem you will run into is that the thickness of the door will likely not be enough to be adding additional layers of glass. Usually the rabbett and stop are milled to accept a particular type of glass panel. Adding additional thicknesses of glass or a SG panel will prevent you reinstalling the trim stops. Unless you are willing to undertake some major millwork operations, this can call a halt to the project in it's early stages. If there's room to put an insert in the door that is about 3/4 to 7/8" thick, then I'd suggest you put an insulated panel in. The 21 x35" opening will be the outside dimensions of the whole unit. The insulated panel has 3 layers, 2 sheets of tempered with the SG panel in the middle. You will have to have the IG unit built, (unless you have a squiggle machine and a tempering unit). The process is done with heat and pressure. The sealant (squiggle) is sort of a black "U" shaped channel of a rubbery looking stuff. They put the edge of your SG panel into the squiggle's "U", and sandwich the two tempered pieces and put it into the press. Your SG panel needs to be about 20.25"x 34.25", as the squiggle is about 5/16 to 3/8" thick, and the panel will "grow" if you make the SG to the finished size. You need to reduce the final size of the art glass by 3/8" all the way around. The best price I have been able to find here in Atlanta for someone to squiggle a SG panel, with them supplying the tempered glass, is about $27 per sq ft. The other issue is that a 6 sq ft IG window with SG in it is going to be really heavy and the door may not have enough strength to hold it in place if the kids are going to be slamming it...especially if you have to narrow the trim stops down to accomodate the added thickness of the new panel.. An IG unit requires 2 sheets of tempered. You can't seal one sheet to the SG without causing condensation. You can install the SG with one sheet of tempered just "in" the opening, without sealing it and "maybe" avoid the condensation problem. This is not a project for the faint of heart....I will NEVER do one of these again. "Michele Blank" wrote in message ... it's just a fancy term for sandwiching the panel inside 2 sheets of tempered glass. works well for doors that get a lot of action, slamming, etc. to prevent bulging down the road (without having to use ugly re-bar criss-crossing on one side). I do re-inforce heavily inside my lines with strongline to add strength. m "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed". Could you explain it to me? I think I know what you said, but am not sure that what you said is the same thing that I think it is. Hal "Michele Blank" wrote in message ... if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m "Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message ... Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside. As this involves grandkids running in and out with the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be needed for this kind of use? My thinking at present is to use copper foil with copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for all your ideas and warnings! -- Hal Keeney (dba) Eugene's Studio Stained Glass Artistry |
#9
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"Michele Blank" wrote in message ... i have never encountered that particular problem as most of the doors in these parts are a good inch thick or more. Making new stops for these doesn't require too much labor . m Probably not if the door is white pine and the opening is rectangular. It becomes a lot more involved if the door is Mahogany and the opening is oval, like the one I've been dealing with. It's a given that the center of the door will be about an inch thick, or more. And when the exterior stop is 1/2" and the interior stop is also 1/2", it doesn't leave much room for glass. ;) |
#10
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Interior doors are commonly 1-3/8" thick. Exterior doors of quality are
usually 1-3/4" although older doors may be thinner. Getting oval stop should be more of a problem than fitting it in. -- Mike Firth Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/hotbit45.htm Latest notes http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/NTBowl.htm Once again, Empty Bowls will collect for the North Texas food banks - donate. "Moonraker" wrote in message ... "Michele Blank" wrote in message ... i have never encountered that particular problem as most of the doors in these parts are a good inch thick or more. Making new stops for these doesn't require too much labor . m Probably not if the door is white pine and the opening is rectangular. It becomes a lot more involved if the door is Mahogany and the opening is oval, like the one I've been dealing with. It's a given that the center of the door will be about an inch thick, or more. And when the exterior stop is 1/2" and the interior stop is also 1/2", it doesn't leave much room for glass. ;) |
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