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  #11  
Old January 14th 04, 08:43 PM
Cheryl Isaak
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Dianne,
It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your direct concern.
Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a museum, historic site.

I've been wondering if a trip to see the inside workings of the local
"Arena" would be of interest. There's more there than a chunk of ice and
seats. You never know what might spark with a child.

ME - I'm still wondering why we want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to
the elementary school on grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who
will have very little to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for
money for extra supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as
necessary as the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music
teacher.

Cheryl

On 1/14/04 2:27 PM, in article ,
"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote:

You may be right. These annual trips may be supported by parents group.
My tax dollars may not be funding them. However, that tells you a
lot, too. :-) It's rather scarey. They've been making these field
trips for years.
Dianne

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

On 1/14/04 8:40 AM, in article ,
"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote:


Roberta wrote:

I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning...

Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?

Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.

If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.

Dianne




Interesting, LOCALLY, the schools don't pay for the field trips or for any
speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
for by a group or individual.

SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.

Cheryl



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  #12  
Old January 14th 04, 10:45 PM
Roberta
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I haven't lived in WI for more than 10 years, so I'm a little removed. My
friends and my family's friends are all football fans, but not obsessed.

Roberta

"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote in message
...
Roberta wrote:
I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun!

But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning...



Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?

Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.

If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.

Dianne



  #13  
Old January 15th 04, 01:03 AM
Dianne Lewandowski
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Default

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Dianne, It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your

direct concern. Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a
museum, historic site.

Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for the education
of children in my community. Since I teach piano, I do get a fair idea
of what other trips these children make. Very few. They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves. Occasionally they make trips to a museum.

It's just that I grew up in a very poor town, with a school that half
the time wasn't accredited with the State, and every year elementary
school children, in each grade, took some sort of field trip: Ford
Museum, Greenfield Village, Cranbrook art Museum, Detroit Museum of Art,
the Detroit zoo, a large bakery (early grades). These all expanded our
vision of the world. Visiting a football field (or baseball field or
ice arena) does nothing. NOW, that being said, if a high school
athletic department wants to make a field trip to show older teens how
professional athletes compete, what plays they make, how they skate,
etc. etc., that doesn't bother me.

Children, especially children who come from poor, less-culturally
advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
what I'm trying to say.

I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."

But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
here. And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.

Dianne



Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Dianne,
It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your direct concern.
Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a museum, historic site.

I've been wondering if a trip to see the inside workings of the local
"Arena" would be of interest. There's more there than a chunk of ice and
seats. You never know what might spark with a child.

ME - I'm still wondering why we want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to
the elementary school on grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who
will have very little to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for
money for extra supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as
necessary as the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music
teacher.

Cheryl

On 1/14/04 2:27 PM, in article ,
"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote:


You may be right. These annual trips may be supported by parents group.
My tax dollars may not be funding them. However, that tells you a
lot, too. :-) It's rather scarey. They've been making these field
trips for years.
Dianne

Cheryl Isaak wrote:


On 1/14/04 8:40 AM, in article ,
"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote:



Roberta wrote:


I went to Lambeau as a kid many times...I grew up in GB...it was fun! But
then, football and athletics in general didn't seem to have as much
influence 25 years ago as they do now...I don't recall any swooning...

Well, things have changed. It's a religion. And it's disgusting. If you
don't watch the games on television, people think your nuts. There's a
LOT of social pressure. And yes, the kids swoon. They bring homes jars
of dirt from the field. Some of our acquaintances have complained. And
wouldn't you rather your tax dollars be spent to send children to a
museum or other place of learning?

Athletics needs to be put back in perspective. And no, I don't want my
State to be represented by the words "Cheeseheads". In fact, Wisconsin
Public Radio has had quite a bit of discussion on this issue, as has the
capital of Madison.

If the level of education, culture and refinement were higher, I could
look at it as a joke. It's not a joke. It's plain sad.

Dianne




Interesting, LOCALLY, the schools don't pay for the field trips or for any
speaker brought into the schools. (I arrange both for a local elementary
school, so I am in a position to know first hand.) Field trips and speakers
are either funded by the parents directly, by the PTA/PTO or privately paid
for by a group or individual.

SO - are you absolutely sure that TAX dollars are used? I can't imagine
that a "fun" trip like that wouldn't have been cut.

Cheryl




  #14  
Old January 15th 04, 01:26 AM
KDLark
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Posts: n/a
Default

They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves.


We have "read ins" at elementary schools where the kids bring pillows and their
stuffed toys and get to lounge on the floor reading and being read to. Maybe
this is what the "lock downs" are?

Katrina L.
  #15  
Old January 15th 04, 04:22 AM
Jenn Liace
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:03:20 -0600, Dianne Lewandowski
wrote:

I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."

But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
here. And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.


I took Cheryl's comment about the artist in residence as being posted
tongue-in-cheek, espcially with the part about the paper and chalk
tossed in. You're right, if the parents are paying for basic supplies
so that the school can pay for a trip to Lambeau, I'd pass on the
trip. But I owuldn't be surprised to find out that there's a
corporation paying for that trip - maybe even the Packers themselves.


Jenn L.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jaliace
http://sewu9corn.blogspot.com
Current projects:
Simply Sensational January Calendar (Mill Hill)
Lady of the Flag (Mirabilia)
  #16  
Old January 15th 04, 04:24 AM
Jenn Liace
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Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:03:20 -0600, Dianne Lewandowski
wrote:

They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves.


One of our prior schools had this. It's essentially an overnight
social. No purpose other than to have fun with their friends (and
possibly to give some parents who aren't chaperoning for whatever
reason a night without one of their rugrats underfoot.) My daughter
didn't go that year, though, she was only in first grade and I didn't
think she was ready for it yet.


Jenn L.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jaliace
http://sewu9corn.blogspot.com
Current projects:
Simply Sensational January Calendar (Mill Hill)
Lady of the Flag (Mirabilia)
  #17  
Old January 15th 04, 05:28 PM
Dianne Lewandowski
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Not according the answers I get from the kids I ask. They're just
"pajama parties". something "fun".
Dianne

KDLark wrote:
They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves.



We have "read ins" at elementary schools where the kids bring pillows and their
stuffed toys and get to lounge on the floor reading and being read to. Maybe
this is what the "lock downs" are?

Katrina L.


  #18  
Old January 15th 04, 07:12 PM
Cheryl Isaak
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Posts: n/a
Default

Dianne,

On 1/14/04 7:03 PM, in article ,
"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Dianne, It which case, you have no say in the matter; it's not your

direct concern. Do you know what other trips they make? To a show, a
museum, historic site.

Yes, as a member of society I DO have a direct concern for the education
of children in my community.


I don't happen to agree with you, I don't get into the "it takes a village"
thing which takes away parental responsibility and gives it to group that
has agendas that I don't agree with. BUT since you are so concerned run for
school board, join the PTA or other wise get involved! Don't just complain,
do something. Offer free piano lessons at the school or give a concert. I
don't know of literacy program that has enough help.

Since I teach piano, I do get a fair idea
of what other trips these children make. Very few. They have "lock
downs" wherein the schools have a big pajama party. Not certain what
purpose that serves. Occasionally they make trips to a museum.


What exits with in a reasonable distance? Remember, school starts at A. The
soonest the buses can leave is 10 minutes later. Then the drive down and
factor in lunch time and the drive back. And time to return to classrooms
and getting back on the bus to go home at B. And a fudge factor for
traffic... How much of the day is left to see anything?

Now, a bus for a day here is $300, holds 55 elementary school students or 40
middle and high school students and the chaperones. Average grade size is
160 at the elementary level, 450 at the older levels. So, a minimum of $900
for transportation alone.

And entrance fees, at $2.00 to $10 per student..... Adds up quick doesn't
it.

Field trips are an expensive proposition. I work on a committee that brings
in speakers that complement the curriculum, meteorologist, wildlife, Native
American, colonial history, the fire department, local dentists,
Egyptologists, dinosaurs. On average, the cost is $500 per speaker. Some
are much higher, some are free. On the whole, much more cost effective and
no one misses out, which can and does happen.


It's just that I grew up in a very poor town, with a school that half
the time wasn't accredited with the State, and every year elementary
school children, in each grade, took some sort of field trip: Ford
Museum, Greenfield Village, Cranbrook art Museum, Detroit Museum of Art,
the Detroit zoo, a large bakery (early grades). These all expanded our
vision of the world.


So did I on all accounts. But why the Wonder Bread factory instead of the
local bakery.'Cause WB was paying for some of it.

But re-read the above listing of costs to take a "class" to anyplace. And
what was the total cost to the parents for these trips - tax dollars didn't
pay all of it. Parents had to chip in 30 years ago when I was at that age.
Donąt ask what I've paid for DS's school excursions so far this year - it is
over $300 already.


Visiting a football field (or baseball field or
ice arena) does nothing. NOW, that being said, if a high school
athletic department wants to make a field trip to show older teens how
professional athletes compete, what plays they make, how they skate,
etc. etc., that doesn't bother me.


Ok - since you aren't "sports minded" how about the food services, the power
plant, all the behind the scenes management. I recently got a chance to
step behind the scenes locally and was impressed at the breadth of skills
needed to keep it running smoothly. How to make the ice is a good intro to
practical applications of science. How to balance the schedule the ice
hockey team one night and hosting a concert the next with the very different
needs of the athletes and the performers. Or how about security issues.
Managing the "pro shop" - a wide range of professions and jobs are
represented in that one trip behind the scenes.


Children, especially children who come from poor, less-culturally
advanced areas, need to see museums, symphonies (I think one of the high
school clubs DOES go to see a symphony or theatre), etc. etc. If you
don't live in poor rural or ghetto areas, then you may not understand
what I'm trying to say.

BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
never heard an opera until high school (and still don't understand the
attraction) and the only plays I've been to were strictly drama club
affairs. But I'd read plays from Aristophanes to Eugene Iounesco and read a
fair number of librettos. And the only museums I went to as a child were of
the road side attraction variety or the science museum. The average parent
probably still doesn't want the little darlings around the nudes at the
Museum of Fine Arts and the average teen will be to busy chortling to learn
anything. (BTW those are the sentiments voiced by local, college educated
parents.) Frankly - I don't think the most "culture" things are grasped by
students under the age of 15 or 16, they aren't ready yet beyond the
simplest of ballets or classical music. Some maturity is required to look at
or understand a nude beyond the titillation factor and the same goes for Van
Gogh. You can look and see the "pretty" but that's all. If you just want to
expose the kids - a slide or book plate is plenty.


I agree about your last statement: "ME - I'm still wondering why we
want to bring an "Artist in Residence" in to the elementary school on
grant dollars (and lots of fund raisers) and who will have very little
to do with the students. The PTA was just hit up for money for extra
supplies - like paper and chalk. It doesn't strike me as necessary as
the marine biologist or the town historian or paying the music teacher."


I happen to think it a waste of time and money - if there is no interaction
with the STUDENTS, why are we doing it? The intended result could be done
much more cost effectively by hiring a landscape designer locally.


But I want to know how we got in this predicatment that teachers and
parent organizations have to pay for supplies. something is VERY wrong
here.


Easy - "people" want computers and the fancy building and big marching bands
and the winning sports teams - the status symbols. And the teachers union
wants it agenda. And the layers of administration all get their cut of the
action. So I can understand how the paper and chalk get cut out of the
budget.

And if I understand you correctly: Then in our corner of the
world, I'd rather see chalk and paper than a trip to Lambeau Field.


But if a trip to Lambeau Field sparks something else - an interest in
grounds keeping even, then it serves multiple functions. Think outside the
box.

Cheryl

  #19  
Old January 15th 04, 09:14 PM
Karen C - California
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In article , Cheryl Isaak
writes:

BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
never heard an opera until high school


Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
broadcast, which is free.

PBS broadcasts at least one opera per year, as well as "good music" concerts.
Again -- free. You don't need cable to watch PBS.

Bundled in with the $12 basic cable service (local stations only) are a couple
of "local access/community/educational" stations. They broadcast student
concerts, school plays, intro to art, some telecourses from the local colleges,
educational material not produced locally (e.g., a series poking around
Historic Williamsburg), and, late at night, Classic Arts Showcase (classical
music videos, bits of classic films, parts of plays, photos of
paintings/sculptures with accompanying music).

Where I grew up, there were concerts in the parks most summer nights. You
could bring your own cold drinks and food. One night might be a barbershop
quartet, the next night a performance by a teen summer drama program, a dress
rehearsal from a nearby professional opera or orchestra, ethnic celebrations,
etc. We got a wide range of culture for a couple cents gasoline. From having
performed repeatedly at one of these programs, I can tell you that the
performers did not get paid: the only cost to the county was a little
electricity for the stage lights. If there was a Xeroxed program, ads were
sold to sponsors. So don't let your community tell you they "can't afford"
this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be bothered to
make the arrangements.


--
Finished 12/14/03 -- Mermaid (Dimensions)
WIP: Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler, Holiday Snowglobe, Guide the Hands (2d
one)

Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html
  #20  
Old January 15th 04, 09:45 PM
Cheryl Isaak
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Default

On 1/15/04 3:14 PM, in article ,
"Karen C - California" wrote:

In article , Cheryl Isaak
writes:

BULL PUCKY - "culture" is as far away as the internet or the library. I
never heard an opera until high school


Turn on the radio. Every Saturday, there's the Texaco Metropolitan Opera
broadcast, which is free.

You're lucky - Saturdays here are talk shows or the folk/Celtic programs.
There is a classical station, but I'd swear it only plays the same few
things over and over.

PBS broadcasts at least one opera per year, as well as "good music" concerts.
Again -- free. You don't need cable to watch PBS.

Here you do - no reception with out the huge antennae.


Bundled in with the $12 basic cable service (local stations only) are a couple
of "local access/community/educational" stations. They broadcast student
concerts, school plays, intro to art, some telecourses from the local
colleges,
educational material not produced locally (e.g., a series poking around
Historic Williamsburg), and, late at night, Classic Arts Showcase (classical
music videos, bits of classic films, parts of plays, photos of
paintings/sculptures with accompanying music).

Lucky - I didn't mind dropping cable, nothing like that on the local access.
But there was the Wicca group that were the subject of letters to the editor
at the local papers. (those were pretty funny!)

Where I grew up, there were concerts in the parks most summer nights. You
could bring your own cold drinks and food. One night might be a barbershop
quartet, the next night a performance by a teen summer drama program, a dress
rehearsal from a nearby professional opera or orchestra, ethnic celebrations,
etc. We got a wide range of culture for a couple cents gasoline. From having
performed repeatedly at one of these programs, I can tell you that the
performers did not get paid: the only cost to the county was a little
electricity for the stage lights. If there was a Xeroxed program, ads were
sold to sponsors. So don't let your community tell you they "can't afford"
this sort of program. What they really mean is that they can't be bothered to
make the arrangements.

Amen to that. Last Olde Home Days (town pride type thing) we got the local
head bangers/heavy metal bands. Ouch! But the next town over does get some
decent stuff - choral groups, barbershop etc...

But I will continue to skip the opera - those poor singers can sound like
they are in such pain. LOL

Cheryl

 




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