color-change garnet

Hi

My wife gave birth to our first child 2 weeks ago, and I would like to
buy her a gift - the birthstone of our daughter. Since she was born
in January, that would be a garnet.

Does anyone have any info regarding a color-change garnet? I've read
about them, and they seem 100% natural (as opposed to synthetic) - is
that the case? Can anyone give me any helpful tips/pointers if
purchasing one?

They are apparently the rarest of the garnets, and I have had a
difficult time tracking them down, except for 1 website:
www.multicolour.com

Does anyone have any experience with this site? It is based in
Thailand, my friend tells me to stay away from it. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Cb

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 07:47:11 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "ceebee"
wrote:


Does anyone have any info regarding a color-change garnet? I've read
about them, and they seem 100% natural (as opposed to synthetic) - is
that the case? Can anyone give me any helpful tips/pointers if
purchasing one?

Synthestics posing as natural are not as much a problem with garnets as they are
with some other, usually more valuable, gems, since the true symthetics for
garnet are pretty much totally different chemistry, developed for other uses, so
they don't much mimic the gem garnets out there (Things like YAG, a synthetic
garnet who's colorless version once was used as a marginal diamond substitute,
and is widely used in things like laser rods). So I'd not worry too much, with
garnet, about synthetics. Of course, if it's very cheap, it might not be garnet
at all, but a synthetic corundum, such as the dark red versions used for the
garnet color in things like class rings. But this is not likely much of a
problem for you if you're at all careful in buying.

Garnet is not actually just one gem, but a family of closely related gems with
similar chemical structure. Different types of garnet occur in a wide variety
of colors. Almost anything other than a decent blue can be found. Perhaps the
rarest of the widely sold ones is tsavorite, a bright green grossular garnet. In
it's best qualities, it can make all but the best emeralds look like second best
choices, and it's a bit more durable than emerald to boot (softer, but less
brittle)

Color change garnet is indeed rarer than tsavorite, but many jewelers regard it
more as an oddity than a "rarity", because it's colors aren't really all that
distinct. Yes, under differing light sources
(sunlight/fluorescent/incandescent) it's visual color will change. But it's not
usually very dramatic, and the colors aren't clear and vivid. Kinda muddy,
usually. So while it's rare enough, it's not really pretty enough to command
all that much attention, or for that matter, the prices of the best of the
tsavorites. It may even be that part of the reason it's hard to find is not
just it's rarity, but also simply that cutters and dealers just don't pay much
attention to it, or bother marketing it when found, increasing the rarity of
stones for sale. The rough is pretty hard to find, but cut stones seem harder
yet... It seems more a "collector" gem, than one in all that much demand.

Personally, I'd choose the stone based on its' attractiveness, and how it will
complement it's wearer, rather than it's price, or it's supposed rarity. You're
not likely to find a color change garnet that will visually just knock your
socks off as an amazingly beautiful gem. In some of the more "standard" colors
and types of garnet, that experience is not hard to find, since some garnets, in
a variety of types and colors, can be just plain stunning.

I'd also make a comment on the whole birthstone thing. While it's a fun
tradition, and if you like it, I'd encourage you to enjoy it, you should also be
aware that the birthstone lists in common use have little to do with any long
term traditions or historic basis. The lists in use were generally compiled in
the early 1900s, based somewhat loosely on earlier lists, but mostly made up of
the various gems which jewelers at that time wished to market. The real old
traditions actually had few facetted gems in them, and some favorites, like
diamond for the month of april, were not in any of those old traditions. Garnet
does date back earlier, but whether exclusively to "january" is debatable.
Depending on which source or list you choose, it's possible to find
justification for a wide variety of gems for almost any person out there. One
can choose between lists for the months, lists for astrological signs, lists for
patron saints, lists for day of the week, and so on and so on. Only a few even
loosely derive from the real original sources, traditions like the breastplate
of Aaron representing the tribes of israel in the old testament, or the p8llars
of jerusalem, or even medeival birthstone traditions. The point here is that
if you enjoy the birthstone thing, go for it. But if you think it represents
some deep meaningful thing, you may wish to do a bit more research. It's a
pretty arbitrary and convenient (to jewelers) list of gems who's biggest
function is to help jewelers sell more gems to people who cannot decide what
they want or need a reason to buy jewelry...

As to Multicolor.com, they're a pretty big outfit. I seem to recall they're
related to Thaigem company, though i might be remembering that wrong. Been
around a while. Not a fly by night fraud or anything, they seem OK. Bangkok is
a major gem cutting and marketing center, so their location there is not
suspicious. As you might expect, some descriptions for gems and qualities might
be over emphasizing things, but on the whole, they seem legit, and I've seen
some decent gems purchased from them.. Prices aren't out of line, but of course
are "internet retail". In short, you get what you pay for, but you're not
paying, usually, outlandish prices, and you're not being blatantly cheated. I'd
shop there before I'd shop the TV shopping channels... But then, I don't shop
the TV channels either. As a jeweler, I get better prices from the various
wholesale dealers I buy from, and don't usually need to wade through quite so
many somewhat mediocre gems to find the good ones. Thaigem has the whole gamut
from dreck to quite fine stones. That can make shopping a bit confusing,
especially from long distance. But I'd not instantly warn you off of them or
anything. You could do a lot worse. They sell a lot through ebay, so you can
check for feedback there if you like.

Just my two cents.

Peter Rowe

On Feb 6, 11:15 am, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 07:47:11 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "ceebee"

wrote:
Does anyone have any info regarding a color-change garnet? I've read
about them, and they seem 100% natural (as opposed to synthetic) - is
that the case? Can anyone give me any helpful tips/pointers if
purchasing one?

Synthestics posing as natural are not as much a problem with garnets as they are
with some other, usually more valuable, gems, since the true symthetics for
garnet are pretty much totally different chemistry, developed for other uses, so
they don't much mimic the gem garnets out there (Things like YAG, a synthetic
garnet who's colorless version once was used as a marginal diamond substitute,
and is widely used in things like laser rods). So I'd not worry too much, with
garnet, about synthetics. Of course, if it's very cheap, it might not be garnet
at all, but a synthetic corundum, such as the dark red versions used for the
garnet color in things like class rings. But this is not likely much of a
problem for you if you're at all careful in buying.

Garnet is not actually just one gem, but a family of closely related gems with
similar chemical structure. Different types of garnet occur in a wide variety
of colors. Almost anything other than a decent blue can be found. Perhaps the
rarest of the widely sold ones is tsavorite, a bright green grossular garnet. In
it's best qualities, it can make all but the best emeralds look like second best
choices, and it's a bit more durable than emerald to boot (softer, but less
brittle)

Color change garnet is indeed rarer than tsavorite, but many jewelers regard it
more as an oddity than a "rarity", because it's colors aren't really all that
distinct. Yes, under differing light sources
(sunlight/fluorescent/incandescent) it's visual color will change. But it's not
usually very dramatic, and the colors aren't clear and vivid. Kinda muddy,
usually. So while it's rare enough, it's not really pretty enough to command
all that much attention, or for that matter, the prices of the best of the
tsavorites. It may even be that part of the reason it's hard to find is not
just it's rarity, but also simply that cutters and dealers just don't pay much
attention to it, or bother marketing it when found, increasing the rarity of
stones for sale. The rough is pretty hard to find, but cut stones seem harder
yet... It seems more a "collector" gem, than one in all that much demand.

Personally, I'd choose the stone based on its' attractiveness, and how it will
complement it's wearer, rather than it's price, or it's supposed rarity. You're
not likely to find a color change garnet that will visually just knock your
socks off as an amazingly beautiful gem. In some of the more "standard" colors
and types of garnet, that experience is not hard to find, since some garnets, in
a variety of types and colors, can be just plain stunning.

I'd also make a comment on the whole birthstone thing. While it's a fun
tradition, and if you like it, I'd encourage you to enjoy it, you should also be
aware that the birthstone lists in common use have little to do with any long
term traditions or historic basis. The lists in use were generally compiled in
the early 1900s, based somewhat loosely on earlier lists, but mostly made up of
the various gems which jewelers at that time wished to market. The real old
traditions actually had few facetted gems in them, and some favorites, like
diamond for the month of april, were not in any of those old traditions. Garnet
does date back earlier, but whether exclusively to "january" is debatable.
Depending on which source or list you choose, it's possible to find
justification for a wide variety of gems for almost any person out there. One
can choose between lists for the months, lists for astrological signs, lists for
patron saints, lists for day of the week, and so on and so on. Only a few even
loosely derive from the real original sources, traditions like the breastplate
of Aaron representing the tribes of israel in the old testament, or the p8llars
of jerusalem, or even medeival birthstone traditions. The point here is that
if you enjoy the birthstone thing, go for it. But if you think it represents
some deep meaningful thing, you may wish to do a bit more research. It's a
pretty arbitrary and convenient (to jewelers) list of gems who's biggest
function is to help jewelers sell more gems to people who cannot decide what
they want or need a reason to buy jewelry...

As to Multicolor.com, they're a pretty big outfit. I seem to recall they're
related to Thaigem company, though i might be remembering that wrong. Been
around a while. Not a fly by night fraud or anything, they seem OK. Bangkok is
a major gem cutting and marketing center, so their location there is not
suspicious. As you might expect, some descriptions for gems and qualities might
be over emphasizing things, but on the whole, they seem legit, and I've seen
some decent gems purchased from them.. Prices aren't out of line, but of course
are "internet retail". In short, you get what you pay for, but you're not
paying, usually, outlandish prices, and you're not being blatantly cheated. I'd
shop there before I'd shop the TV shopping channels... But then, I don't shop
the TV channels either. As a jeweler, I get better prices from the various
wholesale dealers I buy from, and don't usually need to wade through quite so
many somewhat mediocre gems to find the good ones. Thaigem has the whole gamut
from dreck to quite fine stones. That can make shopping a bit confusing,
especially from long distance. But I'd not instantly warn you off of them or
anything. You could do a lot worse. They sell a lot through ebay, so you can
check for feedback there if you like.

Just my two cents.

Peter Rowe



Thanks for your comments - they are very helpful.

I am not buying the garnet for any meaningful thing. Just something
my wife can have, and I thought that might be appropriate.

As a jeweler, would you look for tsavorite or color-changing garnets?
I am asking be/c I figure trying to buy a smaller, rarer stone would
be better than buying a larger, more common one.

As far as suitability is concerned, I will decide if they are suited
to her skin colour, etc. I would just like to buy something with the
'best bang for the buck', and that is what I am having a hard time
deciding right now.

Thanks,

Cb

"ceebee" wrote in message
...
Hi

My wife gave birth to our first child 2 weeks ago, and I would like to
buy her a gift - the birthstone of our daughter. Since she was born
in January, that would be a garnet.

Does anyone have any info regarding a color-change garnet? I've read
about them, and they seem 100% natural (as opposed to synthetic) - is
that the case? Can anyone give me any helpful tips/pointers if
purchasing one?

They are apparently the rarest of the garnets, and I have had a
difficult time tracking them down, except for 1 website:
www.multicolour.com

Does anyone have any experience with this site? It is based in
Thailand, my friend tells me to stay away from it. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Cb



Peter already said what I wanted, that color change garnets usually have at
least one muddy, brownish or greyish color to them, so I think they're
overpriced and overrated. But since we all have a right to a personal
opinion, that's just mine, and if you like the stone go for it. But keep in
mind that probably the only stone with a really distinct color change is
alexandrite, since there are many "color sensitive" stones out there (I
remember one person saying that he's got a color change emerald - lighter
green in bright light, darker green in the shade and black when you turn the
lights off :-). Anyway, if it's rarity what you're after than go for a gem
with a great cut - that is, fine proportions, great symetry and full of
sparkle. I tend to joke that nowdays the rarest faceted stones are those
with a good cut, since cutters either want to retain the right color or
retain the most weight - anything to get the most money for the stone. For
those and other reasons, stones often lack brilliance, have "windows" (areas
through which you can read printed text easily, since there's no light
returning to your eyes - everything just passes through the stone) or overly
dark areas. Of course, don't expect to find a perfectly cut ruby with a
perfect crimson red color, but if you don't mind a bit of a less saturated
color it's not impossible to find a great cut. By the way, a nicely cut
stone would look something like this:

http://www.torraca.net/img/demantoid_trill.jpg
(Peter, it's really hard to find a picture of a gemstone that's not located
on a commercial website, but I managed

....and there are numerous websites that could somewhat educate you on how to
spot a good cut, like:

http://www.gemstone.org/gem-tips/ask...-judgecut.html

Also keep in mind that buying colored gemstones online is not the best idea
because of the possible diferences in display settings of various monitors
which could lead you to not seeing the true color of a stone, but a shade or
two diferent (which can be a noticable diference and a bad surprise).

Good luck!

Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 07:47:11 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "ceebee"
wrote:



Does anyone have any info regarding a color-change garnet? I've read
about them, and they seem 100% natural (as opposed to synthetic) - is
that the case? Can anyone give me any helpful tips/pointers if
purchasing one?


Synthestics posing as natural are not as much a problem with garnets as they are
with some other, usually more valuable, gems, since the true symthetics for
garnet are pretty much totally different chemistry, developed for other uses, so
they don't much mimic the gem garnets out there (Things like YAG, a synthetic
garnet who's colorless version once was used as a marginal diamond substitute,
and is widely used in things like laser rods). So I'd not worry too much, with
garnet, about synthetics. Of course, if it's very cheap, it might not be garnet
at all, but a synthetic corundum, such as the dark red versions used for the
garnet color in things like class rings. But this is not likely much of a
problem for you if you're at all careful in buying.

Garnet is not actually just one gem, but a family of closely related gems with
similar chemical structure. Different types of garnet occur in a wide variety
of colors. Almost anything other than a decent blue can be found. Perhaps the
rarest of the widely sold ones is tsavorite, a bright green grossular garnet. In
it's best qualities, it can make all but the best emeralds look like second best
choices, and it's a bit more durable than emerald to boot (softer, but less
brittle)

Color change garnet is indeed rarer than tsavorite, but many jewelers regard it
more as an oddity than a "rarity", because it's colors aren't really all that
distinct. Yes, under differing light sources
(sunlight/fluorescent/incandescent) it's visual color will change. But it's not
usually very dramatic, and the colors aren't clear and vivid. Kinda muddy,
usually. So while it's rare enough, it's not really pretty enough to command
all that much attention, or for that matter, the prices of the best of the
tsavorites. It may even be that part of the reason it's hard to find is not
just it's rarity, but also simply that cutters and dealers just don't pay much
attention to it, or bother marketing it when found, increasing the rarity of
stones for sale. The rough is pretty hard to find, but cut stones seem harder
yet... It seems more a "collector" gem, than one in all that much demand.

Personally, I'd choose the stone based on its' attractiveness, and how it will
complement it's wearer, rather than it's price, or it's supposed rarity. You're
not likely to find a color change garnet that will visually just knock your
socks off as an amazingly beautiful gem. In some of the more "standard" colors
and types of garnet, that experience is not hard to find, since some garnets, in
a variety of types and colors, can be just plain stunning.

I'd also make a comment on the whole birthstone thing. While it's a fun
tradition, and if you like it, I'd encourage you to enjoy it, you should also be
aware that the birthstone lists in common use have little to do with any long
term traditions or historic basis. The lists in use were generally compiled in
the early 1900s, based somewhat loosely on earlier lists, but mostly made up of
the various gems which jewelers at that time wished to market. The real old
traditions actually had few facetted gems in them, and some favorites, like
diamond for the month of april, were not in any of those old traditions. Garnet
does date back earlier, but whether exclusively to "january" is debatable.
Depending on which source or list you choose, it's possible to find
justification for a wide variety of gems for almost any person out there. One
can choose between lists for the months, lists for astrological signs, lists for
patron saints, lists for day of the week, and so on and so on. Only a few even
loosely derive from the real original sources, traditions like the breastplate
of Aaron representing the tribes of israel in the old testament, or the p8llars
of jerusalem, or even medeival birthstone traditions. The point here is that
if you enjoy the birthstone thing, go for it. But if you think it represents
some deep meaningful thing, you may wish to do a bit more research. It's a
pretty arbitrary and convenient (to jewelers) list of gems who's biggest
function is to help jewelers sell more gems to people who cannot decide what
they want or need a reason to buy jewelry...

As to Multicolor.com, they're a pretty big outfit. I seem to recall they're
related to Thaigem company, though i might be remembering that wrong. Been
around a while. Not a fly by night fraud or anything, they seem OK. Bangkok is
a major gem cutting and marketing center, so their location there is not
suspicious. As you might expect, some descriptions for gems and qualities might
be over emphasizing things, but on the whole, they seem legit, and I've seen
some decent gems purchased from them.. Prices aren't out of line, but of course
are "internet retail". In short, you get what you pay for, but you're not
paying, usually, outlandish prices, and you're not being blatantly cheated. I'd
shop there before I'd shop the TV shopping channels... But then, I don't shop
the TV channels either. As a jeweler, I get better prices from the various
wholesale dealers I buy from, and don't usually need to wade through quite so
many somewhat mediocre gems to find the good ones. Thaigem has the whole gamut
from dreck to quite fine stones. That can make shopping a bit confusing,
especially from long distance. But I'd not instantly warn you off of them or
anything. You could do a lot worse. They sell a lot through ebay, so you can
check for feedback there if you like.

Just my two cents.

Peter Rowe

Excellent post - I'm just adding that, in addition to faceted garnets
(beware of dark gems - make sure it looks nice in 'office/grocery store'
lighting - not just next to a 75w halogen!) there are star garnets cut
en cabochon that are quite uncommon.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...=Search+Images

tinyurl seems busted, try google searching star garnet.

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

Does anyone have any info regarding a color-change garnet? I've read
about them, and they seem 100% natural (as opposed to synthetic) - is
that the case? Can anyone give me any helpful tips/pointers if
purchasing one?

They are apparently the rarest of the garnets, and I have had a
difficult time tracking them down, except for 1 website:
www.multicolour.com

The humble and relatively inexpensive garnets from Idaho, Dinnerbucket
Creek and Emerald Creek locations, exhibit color change in different
lightsources. Some are a "Welch's Grape Jelly" purple in
fluorescent..

INCANDESCENT LIGHT: http://www.gearloose.com/dbgrnt2.gif

FLUORESCENT/DAYLIGHT: http://www.gearloose.com/dbgarnet.gif

I cut this oddball for someone years ago, and grabbed quick snapshots
on the way out the door, with no lighting efforts made. Under 2-3
carats or so they are not too dark, and if you get a few to sort
through, you will find one or two that can yield a brilliant stone.

If you have trouble finding any, use my pagemail link and let me know.
I am sure there are some around here in the cluttered drawers.

Here's a better example of the color of that Dinnerbucket Garnet I
mentoned. Still a lousy picture but NOT taken with a video camera and
frame grabber like thos old earlier examples.
'*Gasp* I actually photographed those BEFORE digital cameras!!

http://www.gearloose.com/dbgrape.gif

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:15:54 GMT, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:

Synthestics posing as natural are not as much a problem with garnets as they are
with some other, usually more valuable, gems, since the true symthetics for
garnet are pretty much totally different chemistry, developed for other uses, so
they don't much mimic the gem garnets out there (Things like YAG, a synthetic
garnet who's colorless version once was used as a marginal diamond substitute,
and is widely used in things like laser rods). So I'd not worry too much, with
garnet, about synthetics.

The synthetic "garnet" that I'm aware of comes in five flavors, GGG,
EGG, SGG, YIG (relatively expensive) and YAG (relatively cheap.) As
far as I know, none of these occur in nature.

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ

"Al Balmer" schreef in bericht
...
On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:15:54 GMT, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:

Synthestics posing as natural are not as much a problem with garnets as
they are
with some other, usually more valuable, gems, since the true symthetics
for
garnet are pretty much totally different chemistry, developed for other
uses, so
they don't much mimic the gem garnets out there (Things like YAG, a
synthetic
garnet who's colorless version once was used as a marginal diamond
substitute,
and is widely used in things like laser rods). So I'd not worry too much,
with
garnet, about synthetics.

The synthetic "garnet" that I'm aware of comes in five flavors, GGG,
EGG, SGG, YIG (relatively expensive) and YAG (relatively cheap.) As
far as I know, none of these occur in nature.

These "synthetics" are all man-made and do not occur in nature. The
misleading "garnet" attached to their names is because they cristalize in
the cubic system, like the "true" garnets.
But while "true" garnets are silicates, GGG,YAG,.... are oxydes.
In this whole thread the term "synthetic" has been used in a rather loose
way, often meaning "imitation".
If you melt aluminiumoxyde-powder with a bit of chromiumoxyde in a
hydrogen/oxygen flame (the Verneuil process) you get a SYNTHETIC ruby,
because the product is a ruby in every aspect (chemical formula, crystal
structure, physical constants). If you add a lot of chromium and ironoxide
you still have a (very dark) synthetic ruby, that you could try to sell as
an IMITATION garnet!
The same goes with SYNTHETIC spinel which is mass-produced in every color
you could think of and then is sold as IMITATION emerald, tourmaline,
ruby......
But since such an imitation emerald has not the chemical compostition of a
"true" emerald it is a bit misleading to call it a synthetic emerald ("real"
synthetic emeralds do exist, but are a lot more expensive than imitation
emeralds).

Groeten,
Jaap Bos

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:05:52 GMT, "Jaap Bos"
wrote:

But since such an imitation emerald has not the chemical compostition of a
"true" emerald it is a bit misleading to call it a synthetic emerald ("real"
synthetic emeralds do exist, but are a lot more expensive than imitation
emeralds).

Yes, although not that bad - $1 - $4 per carat, depending on quality
and quantity. Synthetic spinel, otoh, goes for 9 - 13 *cents* per
carat in greens.

--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ