While you stitch - who's watching the Olympics

ellice wrote:

On 8/13/08 10:21 AM, "Dr. Brat" wrote:
ellice wrote:

Well, I'd disagree, obviously. What I'm addressing is what seems to be your
contention that no one below the level of government official has any
responsibility or knew what they were doing.

That's not quite my contention. It's more subtle than that - that the
incentives of the system may cause people to cut corners that they
wouldn't normally cut in market systems. And that information in the
system does not flow as freely, precisely because the incentives of the
system work against the free flow of information.


I appreciate this - however, that's not how I read your original posts.

That may not be how you read my original post, but if you go back, I
think you'll see that I didn't say anything incompatible with what I'm
saying here. In fact, I think you misread me and have been arguing
based on that misreading instead of based on what I actually said.

While workers in state run
facilities may be more fearful of reprisals, factories still run in the same
way - with variation in the level of automation, technology versus people
power. Economics may drive decisions, but the people on the floor know what
is going on - things are only hidden level by level.

Yes, and because things are hidden level by level, that additive could
have been put in at a rather low level without the upper levels knowing
about it, but the incentive to do so originated at the upper level. Not
in "put in an additive" but in "speed it up by whatever means necessary."

OK. But, I'd say the uppermost may not know the most specific details, but
continue to believe that the lower levels of management will know - I really
doubt that the lowest level of a line worker - even in a repressive regime -
would go out and do the additives on their own, and without anyone above
knowing. These are systemic issues - and even here stuff like that can
happen.

Right, but all these things would work together such that you can' say,
as Cheryl did, that they knowingly poisoned our pets. The additive
likely happened on a much different level than the decision to sell
those products specifically for dog food. That's all I was trying to
say in the first place.

And, yes, I've had
experience with Soviet manufacturing in areas I'd rather not discuss.
Besides, studying more than just your basic US manufacturing approach.
Including doing research on QC, manufacturing in post-war Japan, and the
changes in the system (one of my advisors was a crony of Mark Demming, the
guy who revolutionized Japanese manufacturing).

Japan is not China.

No. But, in the industrial history of the latter part of the 20th century
til now, that is a standard in the development of manufacturing methods,
quality control, cost effectiveness, and most often noted correction of a
system methodology fraught with problems caused by lack of control, poor
processes, communication, worker knowledge, worker environments, etc.
Manufacturing globally has progressed and learned from those lessons. Even
engineer types from mainland China have studied things like this. Certainly
for at least 25 years there have been students in the US at all levels. I'm
pretty sure that they bring their knowledge, etc back to China with them for
application. Might not be at the same level as here, or elsewhere in the
west - especially given that person power is much more available. But, the
way factories work for the most part isn't likely to be very different.

I disagree. Even with all those people studying in the West.
Manufacturing procedures might be similar, but I don't think that
decision-making processes are anything alike, even if they have been
converging over time. They're not there yet.

So, while you may be in an academic environment that I no longer work,
research in - I'm not sure that has provided you better information or
experience.

I'm not the one who brought up experience. You are. And you seemed to
be arguing that there is no point in discussing this with you because
you have so much experience that you simply know the answer here. I was
pointing out that your experience may or may not have given you the
answer. I thought we were discussing where the Chinese system may have
broken down to allow the kind of malfunction that led to American pets
dying. I didn't realize we were simply waving dicks. If that's all
we're doing, yours is definitely larger, I'll concede.

LOL- I'm merely arguing my POV with what my experience would back up. You
questioned my relevant experience - so I replied. We obviously have
different POVs WRT the system breakdown - my earlier interpretation of yours
is that it's completely due to the Chinese economic system, and was done
secretly with no one (paraphrasing) in responsible places knowing.

Again, you inferred that from what I said, but it isn't what I said.

Mine
places it more into not just the economics, but also into a systemic or at
least in that industry, lack of regard for standards that we expect. And
that knowledge went through more strata of these facilities. I'm totally
happy to discuss.

But a lack of regard for standards (which I agree is part of the
equation) still doesn't translate into "they knowingly poisoned our
animals" which is what I was disagreeing with originally and what you
seem to be taking sides with.

Didn't really think anatomy came into it - but I guess being countered in a
discussion somehow brings that to your mind.

No, being countered in a discussion doesn't usually bring that to mind.
Being countered in a way that insists that I should agree with you
based on your experience in countries other than China does. It's a
theoretical discussion in which neither of us really has the relevant
knowledge or experience, so throwing credentials around seems pointless
to me.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Jangchub wrote:


Ain't that the truth. It's why we're looking at Belize and Cancun and
Costa Rica for retirement.




International Living is a good website for such decisions:
http://www.internationalliving.com/c...chive/03_23_06





--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/

"Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at comcast..net wrote in message
. ..

"ellice" wrote in message
...
On 8/12/08 8:38 PM, "lucretia borgia"
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:10:47 -0400, Cheryl Isaak
opined:


Putting its own journalists in jail is a little different than
killiing
someone else's. Perhaps shouldn't be, but is.

Elizabeth
I suspect the Chinese govt could manufacture a reason to jail a
Western
journalist. Once you're in there, what are the chances of getting out
again?

They could, but it is highly unlikely they will. What they do to
their own citizens is something we can do little about, but should
they do it to an American, the adverse publicity would be too bad,
they are not about to do that.
Hey - they added poison to dog food and I'll bet that was knowingly.

C
I really don't think they knowingly added poison to animal food. Think
about how many factories there are supplying the food, the number is
mind boggling, and to be fair, it would be hard to control. When I see
the bloopers here, how much more difficult there must it be? It
really was not in their interests to poison our pets, **** happens.

I think the carelessness and lack of concern for safety is intentional as
it
stems from profit motivation, and disregard for what other cultures may
find
acceptable or safe. There was definite lying in the factories. And has
continued to be. Which is why the US has now put more stringent
inspection
requirements and restrictions on imports from China.

If you really want to know - I blame a lot of that on Wartmart that
really pushed the limit on off shore goods. Now in a Canadian
stupidmarket you are hard put to know what you are eating. We
unfortunately have this idea that Produced in Canada means that shrimp
came from our waters. Well it ain't so, it came from waters off
Thailand but because the plastic bag that it was frozen in comes from
Canada, they can put Produced in Canada on it. Would I eat shrimp
from waters off Thailand, no, but then again, I would if I wasn't
careful lol Wartmart has created this monster IMO.

Not just them. Though, I try very hard to avoid shopping there on the
basic
human rights issues, etc. And we're picky about what supermarket, what
foods we buy - what to get organic, what to juat be sure is "healthy"
without nitrates, etc.

Ellice

Not quite as serious as the rest of this discussion, did you know Oscar
Meyer makes hot dogs without nitrates? They're good too.

Lucille

I agree that they TASTE good but they must have replaced the nitrates with
something else nasty as they aren't allowed to be sold in Canada!

Mavia

"Mavia Beaulieu" wrote in message
newsPGok.7336$nu6.7233@edtnps83...

"Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at comcast..net wrote in message
. ..

"ellice" wrote in message
...
On 8/12/08 8:38 PM, "lucretia borgia"
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:10:47 -0400, Cheryl Isaak
opined:


Putting its own journalists in jail is a little different than
killiing
someone else's. Perhaps shouldn't be, but is.

Elizabeth
I suspect the Chinese govt could manufacture a reason to jail a
Western
journalist. Once you're in there, what are the chances of getting
out
again?

They could, but it is highly unlikely they will. What they do to
their own citizens is something we can do little about, but should
they do it to an American, the adverse publicity would be too bad,
they are not about to do that.
Hey - they added poison to dog food and I'll bet that was knowingly.

C
I really don't think they knowingly added poison to animal food. Think
about how many factories there are supplying the food, the number is
mind boggling, and to be fair, it would be hard to control. When I see
the bloopers here, how much more difficult there must it be? It
really was not in their interests to poison our pets, **** happens.

I think the carelessness and lack of concern for safety is intentional
as it
stems from profit motivation, and disregard for what other cultures may
find
acceptable or safe. There was definite lying in the factories. And has
continued to be. Which is why the US has now put more stringent
inspection
requirements and restrictions on imports from China.

If you really want to know - I blame a lot of that on Wartmart that
really pushed the limit on off shore goods. Now in a Canadian
stupidmarket you are hard put to know what you are eating. We
unfortunately have this idea that Produced in Canada means that shrimp
came from our waters. Well it ain't so, it came from waters off
Thailand but because the plastic bag that it was frozen in comes from
Canada, they can put Produced in Canada on it. Would I eat shrimp
from waters off Thailand, no, but then again, I would if I wasn't
careful lol Wartmart has created this monster IMO.

Not just them. Though, I try very hard to avoid shopping there on the
basic
human rights issues, etc. And we're picky about what supermarket, what
foods we buy - what to get organic, what to juat be sure is "healthy"
without nitrates, etc.

Ellice

Not quite as serious as the rest of this discussion, did you know Oscar
Meyer makes hot dogs without nitrates? They're good too.

Lucille

I agree that they TASTE good but they must have replaced the nitrates with
something else nasty as they aren't allowed to be sold in Canada!

Mavia

I'm surprised to hear that. Could it be because unlike regular hot dogs
they must be strictly kept under refrigeration and either used within a week
or frozen?

I'm going to see what I can find out about that.

Lucille

..

Joan E. wrote:
On Aug 12, 6:35 pm, Trish Brown wrote:

Bottom line, though, is 'Are we all willing to give those perks up and
donate Serious Money to folk who need it?'

Problem is, people don't donate because they *know* the money never
ends up in the hands of those who need it! Somehow it always has to
go through "government" and mysteriously disappears. If we could be
assured that the money/food/supplies would end up where they're
actually needed, they'd have better results.

Joan


My Mum sends a considerable sum each month (well, for her, out of her
pension) directly to a priest in India. He sends back photos of the
things he buys. It's mostly medicines and hospital supplies, but
sometimes school books and shoes etc. It's amazing what a hundred
dollars will buy in the Third World, it really is!

Mum also sends money to a school in Africa, but she's only been doing
that recently (five or so years). I know she's been sending to Father
Rajappa since I was seven. Since her money goes directly, there's no
'administration' fees attached to it and she's overjoyed to have helped
someone with less than she has.

There are organisations out there which, IMHO, one can donate to with
the sure knowledge that the money will definitely be used for medical
purposes. Wide Smiles is an international one that takes care of
craniofacial surgeries. The Australian Fred Hollowes Foundation does
cataract and other ophthalmic surgeries, training native doctors as
well. Médécins Sans Frontières is another that (I think) would be
trustworthy, although I know a lot less about it.

I think if the doctors are willing to donate their time and skill, then
it's fair enough for one to donate to cover the logistics of getting
medical teams to where they're needed.

"Mavia Beaulieu" wrote in message
newsPGok.7336$nu6.7233@edtnps83...

"Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at comcast..net wrote in message
. ..

"ellice" wrote in message


--snip--


Not quite as serious as the rest of this discussion, did you know Oscar
Meyer makes hot dogs without nitrates? They're good too.

Lucille

I agree that they TASTE good but they must have replaced the nitrates with
something else nasty as they aren't allowed to be sold in Canada!

Mavia

I called Kraft directly and was told that they are still being manufactured
and sold here in the U.S. and the only reason for them to be taken out of
the stores in Canada is that they were either not selling or selling very,
very slowly and they don't have a long shelf life like regular hot dogs.

Lucille

On Aug 13, 3:08 pm, lucretia borgia
wrote:

I guess I did quite often speed up when I saw an MP jeep behind me lol

Unlike these days????

Joan (rdh!!!!)

"Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at comcast..net wrote in message
...

"Mavia Beaulieu" wrote in message
newsPGok.7336$nu6.7233@edtnps83...

"Lucille" lzoltynospam@now at comcast..net wrote in message
. ..

"ellice" wrote in message


--snip--


Not quite as serious as the rest of this discussion, did you know Oscar
Meyer makes hot dogs without nitrates? They're good too.

Lucille

I agree that they TASTE good but they must have replaced the nitrates
with something else nasty as they aren't allowed to be sold in Canada!

Mavia

I called Kraft directly and was told that they are still being
manufactured and sold here in the U.S. and the only reason for them to be
taken out of the stores in Canada is that they were either not selling or
selling very, very slowly and they don't have a long shelf life like
regular hot dogs.

Lucille


That sounds like a reasonable explanation......although I wouldn't expect
them to say otherwise!

When they disappeared from our two local grocery chains I asked the managers
of their meat departments why that was and was told that they contained a
substance restricted in Canada.

We can buy other Oscar Myer products here. I do miss the hot dogs as they
were tasty!

Mavia

lucretia borgia wrote:
On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:33:00 -0500, Jangchub
opined:


I got a speeding ticket a month ago. They are going to dismiss the
ticket, but it still is going to cost almost 200 dollars for going 16
mph over the limit. I have to take this defensive driving course
online, thank goodness, then the test. That and court fees and you
have 200 dollars. Better than if I just paid the ticket which would
have been 360 dollars US. Oh, and I get 10% off my insurance for
three years, so not too bad.


Cheap ! Mine was $412, in NS the more you are over the limit, the
more the fine. Points on my licence for two years, which I have just
worked off now by staying clean. However those who know tell me I am
ill advised to get another ticket as the insurance will ding me.
So I guess speeding could lead to disaster, it kills me but I am a
goody two shoes now.

Last time I got a speeding ticket, I went to court to contest it. Cop
who wrote the ticket didn't show up, so I'm off the hook. I'm told
that's what often happens around here and if you can afford to take the
day to go to court, it's worth it. It might have been worth it even if
he had shown up, as he had written the wrong license plate number on the
ticket.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Jangchub wrote:

(Cringe) thanks for changing the header. I got carried away and didn't
think to!

Yesss! That's what it reminds me of: the flowers look just like those of
Datura (Devil's Apple). Same family, eh!

Until ten or so years ago both plants were called Datura. Since
plants are classed by their flower parts and since Datura face up and
Brugs hang down with slightly different flower parts (sex organs) they
renamed them, but both are in the family Solanacea.

Ah yes! I've looked them up in my plant books. Your Brugs are lovely and
I had no idea they actually came in named varieties. D'you mind letting
me in on the differences between floral parts? Like you, I've done the
taxonomy thing and am interested to know.

I would love to see wild Cockatoo's. I have a Macaw. You have to
watch this on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkw6XBCktqE
Mumblegrumble. I can't do YouTube just at the moment. I've got a trojan
called Vundo and it's slowed my system down to a snail's pace. I'm
supposed to be formatting my drive as we speak, but got caught up
watching the scanty equestrian coverage on telly. LOL!

Try to save the link.

'kay.


Yeah, they're Sulphur Crested Cockatoos. Great big fellas that weigh a
kilo or two and hit the roof like a ton o'brix!

Yeah, big blimps of things! They are so wonderful and so LOUD. In
captivity they need a minimum of four to six hours a day of direct
contact, nuzzling, cuddling, grooming, cooing, shmoozing and love.
They are very needy of a mates. I believe they mate for life and are
monogamous. I have a chart to stitch several different kinds of
Cockatoo's. I was going to buy one until I was afraid I wouldn't be
able to provide the care, but as it turns out I spend at least that
much time with Mika. She is an emotionally healthy girl, thankfully.
It can go wonky and parrots will pull their feathers out and do
horrible mutilation to themselves if they are not properly treated in
captivity.

ROTFLMAO!!! Oh I wish I could get a decent recording of the flock of two
hundred or so that flies over our place every arvo. They are *deafening*
in full cry!!! They do mate for life and are wonderful companion animals
so long as you're willing to spend the time with them. Tragically, most
are kept in disgustingly tiny cages without the room even to extend
their wings.

My Dad was given one years ago. We hadn't realised this bird had been
caught from the wild and, of course, was never going to be tamed. Over
time Ignatius (the cocky) actually chewed off one of his feet from
distress. I finally convinced Dad to let him go and it was not long
before a friend who was greenkeeper over at the university playing
fields remarked on seeing a one-legged cockatoo among the flock that
lived there. Thank goodness Ignatius survived! Many don't.

Oh, and another story, since you're interested in cockies. My DH's uncle
is a real animal-person. Aside from breeding and showing Bull Terriers,
he has the biggest flight aviary I've ever seen. It takes up the whole
of his backyard, probably a third of an acre in size, and is filled with
all kinds of native shrubs. In it, he keeps his collection of native
parrots, mostly cockatoos. He has the lovely grey and scarlet
Gang-gangs, the coconut-ice-coloured Major Mitchells (endangered these
days), White-Tailed Blacks from the far west *and* the pièce de
résistance is a pair of Palm Cockatoos from far northern Queensland.

Palm Cockies are the biggest of all. They're nearly a metre long and
glossy black with an *enormous* black bill. They have a patch of scarlet
skin on their faces and this glows brightly when they're excited or
'talking' to each other. They make a hilarious sound which is exactly
like an adenoidal person saying 'Hellowwwwwwww'. Like all Cockies,
they're really funny to watch in their antics as they climb about the
treetops and munch up everything they can get their beaks on.

Of course, that's the downside of cockatoos. They rather enjoy
destroying things. There's a Silky Oak tree at the back of our place
that's virtually been stripped bare and nearly ringbarked by the
cockies. Not only that, but they'll perch in a great white cloud on
people's TV antennas and shred the cables that hold them in position.
They also like ripping shreds off the telegraph poles. If you've got a
big flock, it can do pretty major damage.

But I don't care! They're amazing! I'd love for you to see our flock
wheeling across a clear blue sky with the sun shining through the pure
white feathers and revealing the sulphur tinge in their armpits! They're
so big and so wild and yet so trusting when they come down to eat. They
turn their heads sideways and eye you with a comical knowing look. They
chatter among themselves like a swag of old ladies at a stitch-in. And
then, the lookout will squark a warning and they'll all be off in an
instant with a great flurry of wings and cries. It's sad when they go.

I've gotten a photo of the ones on our roof, but I can't post it till I
sort out my computer woes. I'll let you know so you can have a look at them.


We have honeyeaters instead. They're mostly just nondescript little
yellow and brown birds that eat nectar from the flowers, but we have a
local population of wattlebirds, which are much larger examples of the
family. They're very noisy and quite funny to watch as they rumble each
other in the blossom trees. We have a nice little thicket of such trees
in the reserve at the back of our place, but I'd like it if the W'birds
visited the yard as well. We'll see...

I'll try to update my blog with photo's of the hummingbirds at our
feeders.

Oh yes please! I think I'm as partial to your hummingbirds as you are to
our cockies. I can't imagine what a teenyweeny hummingbird must be like
and it's one of my dearest wishes to see one in the flesh!


Hmmm... have you ever tried doing orchids? They're *so* fun to grow and
bring such pleasure when they flower! We have a lot of native ones which
are mostly very small plants with tiny white or cream-coloured flowers.
I like those. But I have to say, I'm also a sucker for the big showy
cattleyas and miltonias and especially the moth-orchids (phalaenopsis)
which are my absolute favourites.

I tried, but I didn't give it enough time. I am not sure it is warm
enough to support orchids in the winter even in the greenhouse. I
keep it cool at night...around 40F which may be 5 degrees C. I'm
terrible at conversion. I love the small ones and the cattleyas. I
murdered some paphs! Too much water.

Eurgh! We've all done that and learned a hard lesson! Why not have
another go when you're feeling more confident? I'm going to!

I have several canna's. 'Pretoria' 'Tropicana' 'Striped Beauty' and
others. The 'Striped Beauty' is in the pond. They grow very well
here in TX also. Reliably perennial without digging in our USDA Zone
8b. This summer is killing everything as it has not rained one drop
since early May and it has been over 100 degrees for almost six weeks
with little relief at night in the 80s. Convert if you wish. It's
HOT.

Very wise. Since my garden's just being started from scratch, I'm hoping
to put all the water-loss things in place from square one. Shade trees
are important over here and something to resist the hot westerly winds
as well. That's where my casuarinas come in - they're not so dense that
they'll block out the sun or rain, but will break up the wind a bit and
provide the dappled shade I want. Fingers crossed!

One good thing about a summer like this; it teaches me that watering
when we have normal rainfall is not necessary. Some plants out there
are growing and flowering beautifully. One such plant is Caesalpina
Pulcherrima L. common name, Pride of Barbados. It needs NO water.
Also the Cassia, mesquite, bay laurel tree (20 feet tall) and so many
others. So, this summer what dies, goodbye's! I do not plan on
replacing anything with anything other than a nice layer of mulch. If
some natives pop in, fine. Out back needs a good thinning anyway.

LOL! Same! The only thing is, while Oz natives are great at doing
without water, they do tend to be kinda grey-green and all the same.
There is nothing on earth that holds a candle to a beautiful rose or
camellia, I find. I can keep the roses hopping along with careful
watering and lots of mulch, but the camellias just shrivel in the hot
summer. They live on the shady side of the house and DH is talking about
putting up some shadecloth to try and break the wind down a bit. Hope it
works.

Our street is a very old one and all the houses are very small and very
close together. We have about six feet of clearance between our house
and the ones on either side. I put the camellias on the Dark Side so
there'd be something a bit more interesting to look at through the side
windows. The neighbour's wall wasn't terribly inspiring! LOL!

We have Anole lizards, fence lizards and gecko's. You can only
imagine my face when our Geico gecko turned out his voice and he was
an Aussie! Now he's a smart a$$. Still very cute. Our gecko's are
Mediterranean imports. We rescued two out of the house a few nights
ago. They could not have been more than half an inch long. Must have
just hatched somewhere in the attic. I don't mind them up there. No
bugs, that's for sure.

Yeah, I don't mind sharing the house with the wildlife. DH sometimes
struggles with it a bit and he did draw the line when a rat got in and
gnawed our network cable! (NB. I'm not all that partial to rats meself,
really) Our snake has long gone and we really do miss him. He must've
died of indigestion, I think, since we *never* had mice while he was
with us. Do you feed your geckoes? Apparently, they can become quite
tame if you're patient.