If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:11:23 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
Need I go on? I'm just getting started... No, but on the other hand I have seen casts of poppy seed and superglue granulation that would fool the eye on an image with no more resolution than this one. Little roundy pattern bumps should be no problem at all. |
Ads |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
wrote in message
... Abrasha wrote: You see, cast iron is very brittle, and during battle a direct blow to the tsuba would simply break it, and possibly cost the poor fellow his life! No more than he deserved! The tsuba isn't a quillion, its function (if anything) is to do with the grip of the hands, not for deflecting blows. Indeed! Sure it has a small part to play in deflecting blows, but it is not it's primary purpose by any stretch of the imagination. And besides, a Samurai worth his salt would be able to block blows with his sword, with or without a Tsuba. Back to the artistry involved though, my Sensei once brought into the Dojo a sword that was given to him by his Sensei (who was one of the Emperors guards). It is about 500 years old, and had some stunning craftmanship throughout (not to mention marks on the blade itself from real life-and-death battles). Cheers, Dale |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 04:47:28 GMT, mbstevens
wrote: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 02:23:59 +0000, mbstevens wrote: I suppose the reliefs could have been pressed into undercut grooves, as the classical ones were, but then they'd have to recut the top of the reliefs because of the hammering. They could, actually, press down a slightly domed relief with something soft to expand it inside an undercut. But I see the fit as a little too perfect, and the metal around the relief has not even a hint of being hammered to fit. I did enlarge the image to 200%, and saw a slight fish pattern. This argues for your theory, but I still have doubts. Anything can be cast. I know someone who could reproduce that picture with the item made in polyclay. -- Marilee J. Layman http://mjlayman.livejournal.com/ |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 01:14:55 +0000, Mick wrote:
It's hard to tell from the photo, but the background appears to be a fine nanako (fish roe) pattern in concentric circles. Is it possible to get detail that fine from a casting, or would that need to be added after casting? Given the new photographs, I think it would Here are unsharp masked blowups of a couple of details from the new images. The dragon tail and nose have the kinds of imperfections I would expect to see in this kind of work. http://www.mbstevens.com/test/dragontail.jpg The worst imperfection on the other one is he http://www.mbstevens.com/test/leaftip.jpg The stamped pattern is more convincing in the blowups, but I still believe the one with the bamboo shoots and leaves could be a casting worked after casting with a stamp. The other guards you posted are more convincing to me. Obviously no one can tell for sure without photomicrographs, or having it in their hand with a magnifier. Given the new photos, I certainly believe it is possible that it is the real thing. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
Andy Dingley wrote:
Abrasha wrote: You see, cast iron is very brittle, and during battle a direct blow to the tsuba would simply break it, and possibly cost the poor fellow his life! No more than he deserved! The tsuba isn't a quillion, its function (if anything) is to do with the grip of the hands, not for deflecting blows. Oh yes it is. The late John M. Yumoto, one of the foremost authorities regarding Samurai swords, founder of the "Northern California Japanese Sword Club" (see below) and author of the seminal book about Samurai swords: "The Samurai Sword, A Handbook" Charles E. Tuttle Company, 1958, wrote on page 83 of that book: "2 Guard (Tsuba). The guard protects the palm of the hand when holding the sword. ..." John Yumoto was also a good friend of Robert E.Haynes, who was the Samurai sword and "kodogu" expert working with the auction house of Butterfield and Butterfield in San Francisco in the early 80's. He held a number of "highly important" sword and kodogu auctions between 1981 and 1985 in San Francisco. I went to all of them and bought several tsuba over the years. In the first auction catalogue of November 1981 Dr. Kazutaro Torigoye wrote: "The tsuba (sword guard), one of the earliest parts of the Japanese sword, was originally almost purely utilitarian, being the instrument that protected the fist from the opponent's blade, sliding after a parry." Kazutaro Torigoye and Robert Haynes coauthored "Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study" The main parts on the Japanese sword mounting to prevent the hands from slipping along the "tsuka" (hilt), were the various tapes made of silk, leather or cotton, that were bound around the hilt in a variety of ways. Before a battle or duel, the warrior would typically wet the bindings to increase the security of his grip. Underneath these bindings, the "menuki" (hilt ornaments) would also serve as a possible additional prevention against the hands slipping. Northern California Japanese Sword Club The NCJSC is a non-profit organization dedicated to the study and preservation of Japanese swords, related items and arts. The NCJSC was founded by John M. Yumoto (among others) in the early 1960's, and incorporated as a nonprofit educational organization in June of 1976. Though based in California's San Francisco Bay Area, our membership spans the United States, and the world. Each August we host the annual San Francisco Token-Kai, recognized as one of the finest "Japanese Sword Shows" in the United States. The NCJSC publishes a monthly newsletter "To-Ron", which is mailed to our membership approximately one week before our monthly meetings. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
mbstevens wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:11:23 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote: Need I go on? I'm just getting started... No, but on the other hand I have seen casts of poppy seed and superglue granulation that would fool the eye on an image with no more resolution than this one. Little roundy pattern bumps should be no problem at all. We're now talking about "casts of poppy seed and superglue granulation", and "little roundy pattern bumps". I rest my case. Goto san turns in his grave. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
mbstevens wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 04:30:56 +0000, Peter W.. Rowe, wrote: In short, go with Abrasha's fine description. One possibility that I didn't think of in my other post to you was that occasionally the reliefs were attached with pins. This is also a possibility, although the tiny leaf tips and such seem to be very flat to the background. I'm still going with a contemporary casting. Hmmm, You conveniently added the word "contemporary" now. Curious where you suddenly got that idea. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
Mick wrote:
Here is a close-up view of the tsuba in my original post: http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764979-O.jpg And, here are a few more that appear to have been made using similar techniques: http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123541201-O.jpg http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764988-O.jpg That tsuba can also be seen he http://www.nihonto.com/tsuba5.html http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123764990-O.jpg This one is a little different. It's a simpler piece, consisting of a nanako background with two small mon (family crests) in gold: http://micknewton.smugmug.com/photos/123541196-O.jpg All of these tsuba show the so called "shakudo-nanako". The last picture is of a tsuba that is not unlike tsuba of the famous Goto school. "Goto Yujo (1453-1512), worked for the Ashikaga Shogun Yoshimasa making mounts in the classical "tachi" style, which consisted of black fishroe ground (shakudo-nanako) with raised gilt borders (somewhat visible in the photo) and decoration such as badges (mon) (clearly visible in the photo). This fashion remained the only correct mounting for swords worn in court ceremonial down to 1868, when the wearing of swords at court was abolished by the Emperor Meiji. The Goto later developed other styles, generally retaining the shakudo nanako ground, which included gambolling lions (shishi), dragons, and waves of clouds, peonies or chrysanthemums and richly encrusted scenes in gold, silver and other varieties of copper alloys. Their style of ornament may have inspired other schools or set a fashion for whgich there was a great demand, for certainly many copies are to be met with, some very fine but most rather mediocre." From: "Japanes Arma and Armor, Crown Publishers Inc., New York 1969. Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 79-79521. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com PS. This is the last thing I am going to say about tsuba. In your original post you asked how this could have been made "Was it cast, carved, or..?" I answered the question as well as I could. Yet, you seem more interested in opinions of a number of people who clearly (in my opinion of course ) do not know what they are talking about. My credentials? I have made a study of Japanese arms and armor over a period of about 35 years. I own about 40 books about the subject, and have read many more. I have traveled to Japan in 1986 and visited several collections. I travelled twice to Venice, Italy where the largest collection of Japanese arms and armor outside Japan is housed, in the Museo Orientale. I have seen thousands of tsubas, handled hundreds, from the finest examples to the crappiest of reproductions. I am by no means an expert about the subject. Yet I categorically state, that the opinions of mbstevens, ted frater, dale porter and dingbat (a fitting handle) as to how the tsuba in question was made, are all wrong! Your tsuba, as far as I can tell from the photo, without having the advantage of examining it up close in the hand, is made of iron plate, and manipulated entirely by hand, with inlay of gold and shakudo. (And yes stevens my pal, it's called inlay, even though it is over the steel. |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:59:22 +0000, mbstevens wrote:
... and leaves could be a casting worked after casting with a stamp. That should be ...and leaves could be chasing with a stamp worked after casting. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
How was this made?
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:59:33 +0000, Abrasha wrote:
We're now talking about "casts of poppy seed and superglue granulation", and "little roundy pattern bumps". We're talking, at this point in the thread, about the originally posted low resolution image of an object and more particularly the pattern on the object's background. Try to keep up. (Now newer, higher resolution images have been posted, and the upper part of the thread is again active. I hope you don't plan to claim that my earlier arguments should have been based on the new images. Try to be aware of the time line, which won't always follow the architecture of the thread. If you get confused, ask me. I'm here to help.) I rest my case. Which is huffing, name dropping, appeals to your own authority, and very little attention to the actual images before everyone's eyes that can actually be argued about. I do notice that the deadly Pforzheim attack is missing this go-round; thank you very, very much. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Hand made chains | pasternak Findings - Jewelry findings | Jewelry | 0 | November 30th 06 02:58 AM |
Need Some Finance For Your Hobby Read ON | sirray | Needlework | 0 | January 14th 05 07:37 PM |
HOW RUBBER STAMPS ARE MADE & how i made $$$ - I AM SELLING MY MACHINE AND METAL SHEETS | Nintendo DS 4 Sale | Rubberstamps | 3 | November 28th 04 12:28 PM |
For discussion: Hand made | Shirley Shone | Beads | 13 | September 22nd 04 11:22 PM |
I made another tablerunner - go look | MerryStahel | Quilting | 5 | September 8th 03 06:34 PM |