This post is important to all

and too long and may be off topic.
Apologies extended now, my hands have been slapped, and I won't do it again.

Of course, that is, in my opinion.

This post is in regards to an ongoing discussion under the heading
"Armstrong" and the fact that their glass is now manufactured in China.
along with a number of other products, but this relates to glass, a subject
dear to a great many people, and most of this board.

The fact that "made in China" used to mean substandard items is not in
dispute, was a fact.
When bevels first started appearing on the market in boxes of 30, from cases
of 108, from containers of thousands, in the late 70's and early 80's the
quality was so poor, I couldn't justify including them in any project, no
matter the cost. AND NOW?? not too shabby, (wish they would go to 1/4"
glass, but they will get around to it if the demand is there), I use them on
a regular basis with my own hand bevels and all is within budget. Quality
got better....

When the cheap, mostly solder, lamps appeared, everyone laughed and said who
would buy such shabby pieces, and they are still produced that way in some
factories, but for the price, they still sell, and so do their better
constructed counterparts. The better Chinese lamps rival those produced
here, otherwise why would many restaurants use them nationwide, other than
cost, the quality has improved.
Blew the daylights out of the lamp market, and they will get better, just
like the bevels.

In case no one has noticed, they are now importing panels, quickly, and they
will custom build, to size. You know those great entryways sold thru the
DYI warehouses, (no names used here) guess that market is next. and the
repair market, forget it, with American labor, it will be cheaper to replace
the entire entry than pay to fix the glass. Eventually, maybe not today,
but eventually.

Our children and grandchildren will not be seeing the patterns and designs
that we create as we have seen those that our forefathers have done, it is
such a different age for us.
WE can make a difference
I don't compete with the off shore importers, I build a product that is so
far out of that realm that the price does not compare. MY stuff, be it lamp
or window, is sooo much more expensive and takes sooo much longer to create
that it goes back to the old, late 18th century axiom that Tiffany and
LaFarge and others seemed to follow.

This product is not for the common man, never was from the time it was
created. It is for the more elite members of society, who have the money to
pay for it. In 1906 a Beautiful table lamp cost $450. The average worker
was making $15 per week. They didn't buy those, even if they had
electricity!

This diatribe is meant to invoke thought, and bring reality into
perspective. Bring the "art" of stained glass into the same conversation as
the "business" end of glass.
Because this is all I know how to do for a living, I worry about the future
of the business along with the beauty and technique of the art.
I would hope someone else would give comment as to its future also.

There will always be a market for cheap, mass produced items. Then there
those who want a piece that was created by an artist with a name, not a
robot with a model number. I'm always amazed when I see the price on a
"Chihully". Chihully hasn't blown glass in years, I question what right
he has to sign his name to something that he didn't make. My only
recourse is not to buy it.

As for the future, I believe there will always be those that will demand
real, original, artistic creations. Glass is the third most collected
item in the world. I don't feel the discriminating collector is going
away any time soon.
--
Jack


http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/

I built my business with the expectation to pass it to my children.
My son Jason is now GM. Nothing has happened over the past 25 years
to change my expectation that the stained glass business can continue
providing a rewarding lifestyle for them - and even for their
children. What HAS changed is what we make. At one time we made lots
of lamps - no more. At one time we did numerous commissions -
decreasing steadily. We now focus on making innovative products that
sell into gift galleries. We've also diversified into supplying
products wholesale to working artisans, and are working steadily to
expand the market for our designs.

Many years ago I decided to not bother trying to make stuff cheaper
then others, nor to try doing it better. I choose instead to make
something different than others do. So far it has worked extremely
well. As long as we can keep innovating, we'll stay ahead of the
Chinese - or anyone else.

The glass business is as good as it ever was - it's just different
then it used to be.

Dennis Brady
DeBrady Glass Ltd
http://www.debrady.com

Victorian Art Glass
http://www.victorianartglass.biz

Victorian Glass Art Festival
http://www.victorianglassartfestival.com

Greetings and Salutations...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 13:26:51 -0700, nJb wrote:

There will always be a market for cheap, mass produced items. Then there
those who want a piece that was created by an artist with a name, not a
robot with a model number. I'm always amazed when I see the price on a

This is true...although at least in THIS area (East Tennessee)
it seems that there is just not that much cash for that sort of thing.
Hope the "massive prosperity" the rest of the country is basking in
will make it here one day.

"Chihully". Chihully hasn't blown glass in years, I question what right
he has to sign his name to something that he didn't make. My only
recourse is not to buy it.

Hum...That is a question. Since it is my understanding that
ALL he does not do is actually manipulate the glass, but, otherwise
is in control of the design and final shape, it seems fair enough to
have him sign his name to it. Using assistants to do the grunt work
of creating is a tradition that stretches back hundreds, if not
thousands, of years. I rather agree with his comment in the
Smithsonian magazine some years ago where he observed that when
one is swinging 60 lbs of red-hot glass around, one NEEDS good
depth perception. Since he is left with only ONE eye...he no
longer has that luxury...

As for the future, I believe there will always be those that will demand
real, original, artistic creations. Glass is the third most collected
item in the world. I don't feel the discriminating collector is going
away any time soon.

One can only hope! The magical nature of glass WILL continue
to fascinate folks...if only there is spare change for it.
Dave Mundt

"Bart V" wrote in message
...

1) The hazardous material question, exposed lead and all.

Oh, BULL****!!!! Exposed lead is hazardous? I'm sure you can cite some
independent statistics and studies to substantiate that?
According to the CDC...lead is only absorbed into the human system through
ingestion or by inhaling the fumes. It cannot be absorbed through the skin
by touching it or just looking at it or any other way. Now, if you are
going around chewing on lead came, you have some bigger problems that we
probably can't help you with. Just lilke the fools who decided that shotgun
shells should be filled with other than lead because it might "harm" the
wildfowl. Last I checked....that was the INTENT. If the bird is
dead...what difference did it make if the shot was lead or steel or plastic?



2) Insurance companies - they're getting pretty finicky as to what
they will or will not insure when you're shopping for a [home]
business policy. Most of them have a different list of approved type
of busineses. Some don't want any part of computer programmers,

Why? Theft risk of computers? That's probably not a biggie.

some don't want anything to do with woodworking etc.

Risk of dust explosions?

Most all of them do have some kind of exclusion when it comes to hazardous
materials...

And what hazardous materials do SG people have? EPA says that if you
generate more than 150 lbs (I think that's the amount) of lead scrap (SCRAP)
annually, you are a hazardous materials generator. I really doubt anybody
who has a home business could generate that much scrap a year. This is not
total purchases of lead...just the leftovers.



-
Check my most up to date email address at:
www.haruteq.com/contact.htm
banjo bridges, tabs, stained glass:
www.haruteq.com

**may your moments of need be met by moments of compassion**

Moonraker wrote:

"Bart V" wrote in message
...

1) The hazardous material question, exposed lead and all.

Oh, BULL****!!!! Exposed lead is hazardous? I'm sure you can cite some
independent statistics and studies to substantiate that?
According to the CDC...lead is only absorbed into the human system through
ingestion or by inhaling the fumes. It cannot be absorbed through the skin
by touching it or just looking at it or any other way. Now, if you are
going around chewing on lead came, you have some bigger problems that we
probably can't help you with. Just lilke the fools who decided that shotgun
shells should be filled with other than lead because it might "harm" the
wildfowl. Last I checked....that was the INTENT. If the bird is
dead...what difference did it make if the shot was lead or steel or plastic?



It was the worry of the bottom feeders ingesting the lead shot. And all
of the lead just laying in the swamps. If you poison them, you don't get
a chance to shoot them.

--
Jack


http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/

Jack, I don't mean to burst your bubble but Tiffany didn't blow glass
either. So I expect you now to rid yourself of your Tiffany collection. As a
matter of fact there are only 3 instances of art glass historically being
blown by the designer. The tradition was that the designer at a factory
designed and craftsman made the work. Another example would be Faberge,
another is the Chagall windows, and you know I could go on but I think you
get the point. This tradition permeated all the crafts up until Harvey told
us that we could not only be the designers but also the craftsman. There is
and has been more than one way to get to Uncle Wiggles house. The reason I
have taken issue with you is your sentence, "I question what right he has to
sign his name to something that he didn't make." It is not my intention to
give you a history lesson but It is somewhat annoying to see Chihuly
constantly getting reamed for the wrong reasons. If you don't want to
purchase something find a good reason not one based on a lack of knowledge
of glass history. Well now that I have shown you that your premise for not
purchasing a Chihuly is false I expect you will run to your favorite gallery
that handles his work and buy a nice set of baskets or perhaps one of his
chandeliers.
Having said all that though it is your prerogative not to purchase something
because you feel the designer should also make the work but don't tell me it
is not his right. I do agree with your second paragraph though.
Henry


There will always be a market for cheap, mass produced items. Then there
those who want a piece that was created by an artist with a name, not a
robot with a model number. I'm always amazed when I see the price on a
"Chihully". Chihully hasn't blown glass in years, I question what right
he has to sign his name to something that he didn't make. My only
recourse is not to buy it.

As for the future, I believe there will always be those that will demand
real, original, artistic creations. Glass is the third most collected
item in the world. I don't feel the discriminating collector is going
away any time soon.

Well, Henry, the Tiffany goes tomorrow. :-).

I was aware and was thinking of Tiffany when I was writing that. I knew
he was the designer and others did the work. I wasn't aware how
widespread the practice was until you pointed it out. The truth of the
matter is that I can't afford to own a piece like that. Josh Simpson is
more in my price range.

You haven't burst my bubble. But, I just looked it up, and Eric Hilton
didn't do the cutting or engraving on "Innerland".

It's all very confusing to me. I suppose one could become a famous glass
artist without ever having touched a piece of glass. Can you give me any
more insight on this?

--
Jack


http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/

"Javahut" wrote in message
...
and too long and may be off topic.
Apologies extended now, my hands have been slapped, and I won't do it
again.


Java I drive this point home too frequently in my RAGS, (Retailers Assoc
of SG Suppliers), group. As one old timer to another here's my take:
Mom and pop candy store type shops were supplanted by the fancier small
neighborhood supermarkets. Then the larger chain stores buried them. Next
came the malls. Entire blocks of stores went belly up, and little strip
malls with an anchor store took over. Wasn't too long after that, came the
chain department store. The first wave went bankrupt as better run, (Walmart
vs KMart), super stores took all the business. Home Depot, Staples, Office
Max, CVS, they all fight for a share as the smaller ones go under. Now it's
the Internet that's "stealing" a lions share from the bigger overhead
outfits. People go to the stores to check out the stuff, then go home and
buy it online for $1 over wholesale. In the mix is all the product coming
from overseas. From cars to hardware it's cheaper, and mostly as good. The
bottomline is it's better for the consumer.
What can we do Java? I can tell you what we can't do. We can't keep our
heads buried in the sand, and hope that the way we have been doing business
the past 30 years, will keep us sustained. We need to constantly open our
minds to new ideas, and different and better ways of earning money. Will our
art suffer? I doubt it, but there will most definitely be less of us doing
it. I live in an suburb of NYC that probably has 5 million people within 30
minutes. How many SG stores are there? Maybe 4. And guess what? Not one of
us is getting rich. I'm always scuffling to make a buck. One week I'm up on
a ladder, the next it's Ebay.... we'll be OK. I can't promise we'll have
anything to pass on to our kids though.

--
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

"nJb" wrote in message
...
Moonraker wrote:

"Bart V" wrote in message
...

1) The hazardous material question, exposed lead and all.

Oh, BULL****!!!! Exposed lead is hazardous? I'm sure you can cite some
independent statistics and studies to substantiate that?
According to the CDC...lead is only absorbed into the human system
through
ingestion or by inhaling the fumes. It cannot be absorbed through the
skin
by touching it or just looking at it or any other way. Now, if you are
going around chewing on lead came, you have some bigger problems that we
probably can't help you with. Just lilke the fools who decided that
shotgun
shells should be filled with other than lead because it might "harm" the
wildfowl. Last I checked....that was the INTENT. If the bird is
dead...what difference did it make if the shot was lead or steel or
plastic?



It was the worry of the bottom feeders ingesting the lead shot. And all
of the lead just laying in the swamps. If you poison them, you don't get
a chance to shoot them.

--
Jack

You mean the bottom-feeding politicians? There ought to be a bounty on
them,

I wonder if anybody ever did a study to determine just how much lead a duck
would have to eat by bottom feeding in order to kill him? And compared to
his normal life expectancy, what difference did it make, anyway? I'm
thinking if he ate enough lead to kill him, he probably would be so heavy
he couldn't swim anyway, so was the cause of death lead, or drowning?