brass came

Hi all,

I had a request for brass came panel, but I have never done a panel before,
and I would have the following questions:

How do I cut the came?

How do I bend it to contour each glass piece.

I guess it is much longer to make a panel than with lead.

How much higher price shall I charge compared to a lead came panel? In
percentage, please.

Any additional tips would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

Marc




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"M. Paradis" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I had a request for brass came panel, but I have never done a panel
before,
and I would have the following questions:

How do I cut the came?

Brass will destroy any teeth on a sawblade. You will have to use a fiber
abrasive blade. The thin abrasive blade for the Gryphon came saw works as
well as anything I've ever used. There is a fiber blade for the Dremel that
will work, but they don't last too long. It will take you 45 seconds to a
minute per cut, vs. 2 or 3 seconds with some nippers cutting the lead. And
the brass gets hot to the touch while cutting it, sometimes hot enough to
discolor..


How do I bend it to contour each glass piece.

It's damn difficult. I have used the brass-clad lead came, but even that
is tough to bend. Do you have a came bender?


I guess it is much longer to make a panel than with lead.

Much! And don't forget you will have to paint each solder joint to match
the brass. Use a gold paint-pen you can get in any hobby shop.


How much higher price shall I charge compared to a lead came panel? In
percentage, please.

I built 16 windows for a church about a year ago, using brass. I wouldn't
do it again for twice the money.

Brass costs 3 or 4 times the price of lead, and your labor is easily twice
as much time. If I were pricing the design in lead at $80 per sq ft, I
personally would price the same design at $200 in brass. (Unless I was flat
out of something to do and needed the work, then I might reconsider.) So,
150 to 200% wouldn't be out of the question.


Any additional tips would be greatly appreciated.

Talk them into something else? ;) Did I make it clear that I don't like
working with brass?




thanks

Marc




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"Moonraker" wrote in message
.. .

"M. Paradis" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I had a request for brass came panel, but I have never done a panel
before,
and I would have the following questions:

How do I cut the came?

Brass will destroy any teeth on a sawblade. You will have to use a fiber
abrasive blade. The thin abrasive blade for the Gryphon came saw works as
well as anything I've ever used. There is a fiber blade for the Dremel
that
will work, but they don't last too long. It will take you 45 seconds to a
minute per cut, vs. 2 or 3 seconds with some nippers cutting the lead.
And
the brass gets hot to the touch while cutting it, sometimes hot enough to
discolor..


How do I bend it to contour each glass piece.

It's damn difficult. I have used the brass-clad lead came, but even that
is tough to bend. Do you have a came bender?


I guess it is much longer to make a panel than with lead.

Much! And don't forget you will have to paint each solder joint to match
the brass. Use a gold paint-pen you can get in any hobby shop.


How much higher price shall I charge compared to a lead came panel? In
percentage, please.

I built 16 windows for a church about a year ago, using brass. I
wouldn't
do it again for twice the money.

Brass costs 3 or 4 times the price of lead, and your labor is easily twice
as much time. If I were pricing the design in lead at $80 per sq ft, I
personally would price the same design at $200 in brass. (Unless I was
flat
out of something to do and needed the work, then I might reconsider.)
So,
150 to 200% wouldn't be out of the question.


Any additional tips would be greatly appreciated.

Talk them into something else? ;) Did I make it clear that I don't
like
working with brass?



All of the above tips from Moonraker, I agree, BUT there is always that
customer that "wants it, and will pay for it." SO.... here is a thought or
two.

Put a small vacuum on or near the table, the "grit" from cutting the brass
will scratch your glass, (makes a mess of bevels, on the face too!) and use
it frequently.

Look up a company called ENKAY, their abrasive cutoff wheels that fit in a
Dremel are much, much better than dremels, also look at Harbor Freights,
Rotary tool. It is a bit longer than a Dremel brand but it stays in balance
very nicely and costs only $30, $20 when on sale.

The thought of annealing the brass to bend curves came upon me when I built
a very curvy panel in copper H came last spring, haven't tried it in brass,
but it should clean up the same way. Heat the brass from one end to the
other to a temp just under cherry orange, keep that heat spot moving along
the length of the piece until you reach the other end. Good pliers are a
must, cotton gloves help too. Let the metal cool on its own, no quenching,
it will bend and twist as you are heating it, (I usually do 1/2 length
pieces) .
Once its cool it will be a darker color, but in the copper, that cleaned up
nicely with whiting when I cemented the panel, tried a green scrub pad on it
before I built the panel and it took alot off then.
Color was back to where I started when I was done.
This was with copper came, so it should work with brass the same way, but I
haven't tried it. Do a small test panel before committing to a larger one.

This annealing thing doesn't seem to be all that well used, given the number
of benders on the market, but if you have a piece of H brass laying around
fire up a torch and try it, and no, I haven't tried it in the kiln....yet.

What Javahut says about copper annealing is quite true. Annealing is a common
practise to soften copper. I have worked as a welder for 33 years and what you
are suggesting for brass may not work. One of the properties of brass, when
heated, is that it becomes very brittle at a certain temperature range.This is
called it's "hot short temperature". Right of the top of my head I think it is
in the 400 to 500 degree F range. If you so much as drop it at that
temperature it will shatter. Whenever I found it necessary to form brass, in
my working days, it was always done cold with hydraulic or mechanical benders.
If you do use heat and it discolours it will polish right up again with steel
wool.

Daymon

All of the above tips from Moonraker, I agree, BUT there is always that
customer that "wants it, and will pay for it." SO.... here is a thought or
two.

Put a small vacuum on or near the table, the "grit" from cutting the brass
will scratch your glass, (makes a mess of bevels, on the face too!) and use
it frequently.

Look up a company called ENKAY, their abrasive cutoff wheels that fit in a
Dremel are much, much better than dremels, also look at Harbor Freights,
Rotary tool. It is a bit longer than a Dremel brand but it stays in balance
very nicely and costs only $30, $20 when on sale.

The thought of annealing the brass to bend curves came upon me when I built
a very curvy panel in copper H came last spring, haven't tried it in brass,
but it should clean up the same way. Heat the brass from one end to the
other to a temp just under cherry orange, keep that heat spot moving along
the length of the piece until you reach the other end. Good pliers are a
must, cotton gloves help too. Let the metal cool on its own, no quenching,
it will bend and twist as you are heating it, (I usually do 1/2 length
pieces) .
Once its cool it will be a darker color, but in the copper, that cleaned up
nicely with whiting when I cemented the panel, tried a green scrub pad on it
before I built the panel and it took alot off then.
Color was back to where I started when I was done.
This was with copper came, so it should work with brass the same way, but I
haven't tried it. Do a small test panel before committing to a larger one.

This annealing thing doesn't seem to be all that well used, given the number
of benders on the market, but if you have a piece of H brass laying around
fire up a torch and try it, and no, I haven't tried it in the kiln....yet.

Damon!
Just the guy I want to talk to,
If you haven't done the brass, then I need to try it, will do it today and
report back.

The reason is, I bend alot of glass for lamps. Some have a piece of "u"
brass all around the edge, and alot of those are "serpentine" bends, so
there are 3 separate bends going on, with the brass wrapped around the edge
of all those bends, and this means the u brass is bending "counter" to its
form. The heart isn't designed to bend that way. I have annealed 1/8"
brass u, but always kept it dark, never tried to polish it back.

When I anneal brass, I take it to a temp that just shows a "rainbow" on the
metal, a few practice tries and one will know the temp, if not enough heat,
it doesn't bend, if too much heat, it falls apart.
I haven't tried this with the "H" came, but I will now. What is brass
besides copper and zinc? Zinc can't handle this, and copper will at a
different temp, sooooo.??


"D& M B" wrote in message
...
What Javahut says about copper annealing is quite true. Annealing is a
common
practise to soften copper. I have worked as a welder for 33 years and what
you
are suggesting for brass may not work. One of the properties of brass,
when
heated, is that it becomes very brittle at a certain temperature
range.This is
called it's "hot short temperature". Right of the top of my head I think
it is
in the 400 to 500 degree F range. If you so much as drop it at that
temperature it will shatter. Whenever I found it necessary to form brass,
in
my working days, it was always done cold with hydraulic or mechanical
benders.
If you do use heat and it discolours it will polish right up again with
steel
wool.

Daymon

All of the above tips from Moonraker, I agree, BUT there is always that
customer that "wants it, and will pay for it." SO.... here is a thought
or
two.

Put a small vacuum on or near the table, the "grit" from cutting the
brass
will scratch your glass, (makes a mess of bevels, on the face too!) and
use
it frequently.

Look up a company called ENKAY, their abrasive cutoff wheels that fit in
a
Dremel are much, much better than dremels, also look at Harbor Freights,
Rotary tool. It is a bit longer than a Dremel brand but it stays in
balance
very nicely and costs only $30, $20 when on sale.

The thought of annealing the brass to bend curves came upon me when I
built
a very curvy panel in copper H came last spring, haven't tried it in
brass,
but it should clean up the same way. Heat the brass from one end to the
other to a temp just under cherry orange, keep that heat spot moving
along
the length of the piece until you reach the other end. Good pliers are a
must, cotton gloves help too. Let the metal cool on its own, no
quenching,
it will bend and twist as you are heating it, (I usually do 1/2 length
pieces) .
Once its cool it will be a darker color, but in the copper, that cleaned
up
nicely with whiting when I cemented the panel, tried a green scrub pad on
it
before I built the panel and it took alot off then.
Color was back to where I started when I was done.
This was with copper came, so it should work with brass the same way, but
I
haven't tried it. Do a small test panel before committing to a larger
one.

This annealing thing doesn't seem to be all that well used, given the
number
of benders on the market, but if you have a piece of H brass laying
around
fire up a torch and try it, and no, I haven't tried it in the
kiln....yet.

Well, coming from another direction, brass anneals very nicely although
there may be a temperature range in which it is "short" and fragile.
Instructions for working brass in metal working books make it clear that it
work hardens and must be annealed and that is exactly my experience. I have
been hammering brass sheet and forming bowls and other shapes and after a
while the stiffness can be felt. I have heated with torch and built a small
insulating castable "hole" [
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/fi....htm#MINIFIREH ] that I heat with
a Hot Head and heat to red and let sit. Actually, unlike steel, quenching
does not harden and following instructions I have a ceramic pot with diluted
sulfuric acid to take the scale off periodically and the softening stays the
same when dropped in hot. (Rinse the acid off obviously.)
Brass may take the teeth off some saws, but a 32 tooth hacksaw blade
thinks it is second cousin to butter and I have cut soft sheet with hole
saws and pocket knives without a lot of damage to the tools.

--
Mike Firth
Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/NTBowl.htm
Once again, Empty Bowls for the North Texas food banks will collect money
in February by charging for donated food and bowls at artsy events in Dallas
& Fort Worth. Check out your area if not near here, Empty Bowls was
originally and still is mostly a pottery project. All it takes is a box
stuffed with newspaper and one bowl a week to collect a dozen by then.
$23,000 raised last year.
"D& M B" wrote in message
...
What Javahut says about copper annealing is quite true. Annealing is a
common
practise to soften copper. I have worked as a welder for 33 years and what
you
are suggesting for brass may not work. One of the properties of brass,
when
heated, is that it becomes very brittle at a certain temperature
range.This is
called it's "hot short temperature". Right of the top of my head I think
it is
in the 400 to 500 degree F range. If you so much as drop it at that
temperature it will shatter. Whenever I found it necessary to form brass,
in
my working days, it was always done cold with hydraulic or mechanical
benders.
If you do use heat and it discolours it will polish right up again with
steel
wool.

Daymon

All of the above tips from Moonraker, I agree, BUT there is always that
customer that "wants it, and will pay for it." SO.... here is a thought
or
two.

Put a small vacuum on or near the table, the "grit" from cutting the
brass
will scratch your glass, (makes a mess of bevels, on the face too!) and
use
it frequently.

Look up a company called ENKAY, their abrasive cutoff wheels that fit in
a
Dremel are much, much better than dremels, also look at Harbor Freights,
Rotary tool. It is a bit longer than a Dremel brand but it stays in
balance
very nicely and costs only $30, $20 when on sale.

The thought of annealing the brass to bend curves came upon me when I
built
a very curvy panel in copper H came last spring, haven't tried it in
brass,
but it should clean up the same way. Heat the brass from one end to the
other to a temp just under cherry orange, keep that heat spot moving
along
the length of the piece until you reach the other end. Good pliers are a
must, cotton gloves help too. Let the metal cool on its own, no
quenching,
it will bend and twist as you are heating it, (I usually do 1/2 length
pieces) .
Once its cool it will be a darker color, but in the copper, that cleaned
up
nicely with whiting when I cemented the panel, tried a green scrub pad on
it
before I built the panel and it took alot off then.
Color was back to where I started when I was done.
This was with copper came, so it should work with brass the same way, but
I
haven't tried it. Do a small test panel before committing to a larger
one.

This annealing thing doesn't seem to be all that well used, given the
number
of benders on the market, but if you have a piece of H brass laying
around
fire up a torch and try it, and no, I haven't tried it in the
kiln....yet.

"Javahut" wrote in message
...

"Moonraker" wrote in message
.. .

"M. Paradis" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I had a request for brass came panel, but I have never done a panel
before,
and I would have the following questions:

How do I cut the came?

Brass will destroy any teeth on a sawblade. You will have to use a
fiber
abrasive blade. The thin abrasive blade for the Gryphon came saw works
as
well as anything I've ever used. There is a fiber blade for the Dremel
that
will work, but they don't last too long. It will take you 45 seconds to
a
minute per cut, vs. 2 or 3 seconds with some nippers cutting the lead.
And
the brass gets hot to the touch while cutting it, sometimes hot enough
to
discolor..


How do I bend it to contour each glass piece.

It's damn difficult. I have used the brass-clad lead came, but even
that
is tough to bend. Do you have a came bender?


I guess it is much longer to make a panel than with lead.

Much! And don't forget you will have to paint each solder joint to
match
the brass. Use a gold paint-pen you can get in any hobby shop.


How much higher price shall I charge compared to a lead came panel? In
percentage, please.

I built 16 windows for a church about a year ago, using brass. I
wouldn't
do it again for twice the money.

Brass costs 3 or 4 times the price of lead, and your labor is easily
twice
as much time. If I were pricing the design in lead at $80 per sq ft, I
personally would price the same design at $200 in brass. (Unless I was
flat
out of something to do and needed the work, then I might reconsider.)
So,
150 to 200% wouldn't be out of the question.


Any additional tips would be greatly appreciated.

Talk them into something else? ;) Did I make it clear that I don't
like
working with brass?



All of the above tips from Moonraker, I agree, BUT there is always that
customer that "wants it, and will pay for it." SO.... here is a thought or
two.

Put a small vacuum on or near the table, the "grit" from cutting the brass
will scratch your glass, (makes a mess of bevels, on the face too!) and
use
it frequently.

Look up a company called ENKAY, their abrasive cutoff wheels that fit in a
Dremel are much, much better than dremels, also look at Harbor Freights,
Rotary tool. It is a bit longer than a Dremel brand but it stays in
balance
very nicely and costs only $30, $20 when on sale.

The thought of annealing the brass to bend curves came upon me when I
built
a very curvy panel in copper H came last spring, haven't tried it in
brass,
but it should clean up the same way. Heat the brass from one end to the
other to a temp just under cherry orange, keep that heat spot moving along
the length of the piece until you reach the other end. Good pliers are a
must, cotton gloves help too. Let the metal cool on its own, no
quenching,
it will bend and twist as you are heating it, (I usually do 1/2 length
pieces) .
Once its cool it will be a darker color, but in the copper, that cleaned
up
nicely with whiting when I cemented the panel, tried a green scrub pad on
it
before I built the panel and it took alot off then.
Color was back to where I started when I was done.
This was with copper came, so it should work with brass the same way, but
I
haven't tried it. Do a small test panel before committing to a larger
one.

This annealing thing doesn't seem to be all that well used, given the
number
of benders on the market, but if you have a piece of H brass laying around
fire up a torch and try it, and no, I haven't tried it in the kiln....yet.

I knew you'd suggest annealing. But that adds a lot of time to the project,
too. I'd rather french-kiss a rattlesnake than work with brass, unless it
is something simple, and all straight lines. I'd do a FLWright type design
in brass, but the first curved piece would call a halt to me working on it.
Noooooo thankya.

Harbor Freight has a flexible shaft tool with a foot control that I looked
at. I think it was 1/3hp motor and had a 48" shaft that would take the
Dremel type bits. I just bought a Black and Decker hand grinder like the
Dremel. I wear out a Dremel in just a couple of months. The front
bearings in a Dremel are a joke. The BD is quieter than a Dremel, so far.
We shall see how long it lasts.

"Mike Firth" wrote in message
...
Brass may take the teeth off some saws, but a 32 tooth hacksaw blade
thinks it is second cousin to butter and I have cut soft sheet with hole
saws and pocket knives without a lot of damage to the tools.

The brass came, as it comes out of the box, IS work hardened by virtue of
it's extrusion into it's HR shape. I've never been very successful in
cutting brass by hand (or with a chop saw) with anything that has a toothed
blade. Only thing that I've ever had success with is the thin fiber
abrasive blades/wheels. I have even used the small thin diamond wheels from
Harbor Freight in a Dremel, and the brass will just destroy the diamond
wheels in a matter of a few cuts. Soft, sheet brass like you buy in a
hobby shop is not nearly as tough to cut as is formed came. You can cut
that stuff with scissors.

"Moonraker" wrote in message
.. .

"Javahut" wrote in message
...

"Moonraker" wrote in message
Harbor Freight has a flexible shaft tool with a foot control that I looked
at. I think it was 1/3hp motor and had a 48" shaft that would take the
Dremel type bits. I just bought a Black and Decker hand grinder like the
Dremel. I wear out a Dremel in just a couple of months. The front
bearings in a Dremel are a joke. The BD is quieter than a Dremel, so far.
We shall see how long it lasts.

look at http://www.foredom.com if you're burning out these tools frequently.

Hi Javahut,

There are many different grades of brass. Some of the other
common elements in brass are silicon and alumnium. Aluminium bronze is quite
hard and ridgid and is used in a lot of bushings. Silicon bronze is extruded
into tubing and other structural shapes.
I am just a novice in the stainglass field and have never used brass
came. I have no idea what it's compisition is. As Mike said the came is
workhardened in the extruding process. I do know that rolled sheet brass is
very soft and mallable but once it is formed it becomes hard very fast. If you
bend it 90 degrees you cannot flatten it out again without heating (annealing)
or it will crack.

Daymon

In article , "Javahut"
wrote:
Damon!
Just the guy I want to talk to,
If you haven't done the brass, then I need to try it, will do it today and
report back.

When I anneal brass, I take it to a temp that just shows a "rainbow" on the
metal, a few practice tries and one will know the temp, if not enough heat,
it doesn't bend, if too much heat, it falls apart.
I haven't tried this with the "H" came, but I will now. What is brass
besides copper and zinc? Zinc can't handle this, and copper will at a
different temp, sooooo.??


"D& M B" wrote in message
...
What Javahut says about copper annealing is quite true. Annealing is a
common
practise to soften copper. I have worked as a welder for 33 years and what
you
are suggesting for brass may not work. One of the properties of brass,
when
heated, is that it becomes very brittle at a certain temperature
range.This is
called it's "hot short temperature". Right of the top of my head I think
it is
in the 400 to 500 degree F range. If you so much as drop it at that
temperature it will shatter. Whenever I found it necessary to form brass,
in
my working days, it was always done cold with hydraulic or mechanical
benders.
If you do use heat and it discolours it will polish right up again with
steel
wool.

Daymon