Attention, Dianne!

I immediately thought of you when I saw this article in the Hopkins
alumni magazine:

http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/0903web/bigques.html

It's about manners and civility, and he states the root casuses of our
modern-day lack of civility very succinctly, I think. In fact, I tried
to think if there were anything I could add, and couldn't come up with
anything.

anybody else? Ideas?

Sue

--
Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen
The Magazine of Folk and World Music
http://www.dirtylinen.com

It's about manners and civility, and he states the root casuses of our
modern-day lack of civility very succinctly, I think. In fact, I tried
to think if there were anything I could add, and couldn't come up with
anything.

anybody else? Ideas?
The article was excellent and I agree with it, but I do have a comment.
Anyone else notice how parents make no effort to control their young
children(under 7 or 8 years) in the grocery store? Manners and concern for
others and their rights are taught by parents at home starting when their
children are quite small, but old enough to interact with others. Okay, end
of rant, but the next time this senior citizen is attacked by a grocery cart
pushed by a four year old with a parents close by, I might rant again. Boo

As the mother of a two year old, have you ever noticed the look on our face.
If we yell, spank or punish we're mean and should have our children taken
away, if we do nothing, we're neglectful and should be punished and have our
children taken away. And, it's the truth. We're scared to do anything for
fear we'll be reported to DCFS.

--
Angel
My family are the golden threads running
through the tapestry of my life.
My friends are the silver threads running
through the tapestry of my life.
The gold and silver in my tapestry show
happiness, love, sadness, togetherness.
And most important of all love.

Oh, this is so true!!!! It seems that if someone tries to "physically"
discipline their "toddler" in public, then the "politically correct"
minded people who witness such a lesson call the authorities!!!!!!
Then, the authorities over-react without considering circumstances, and
compromise a family's core!

It seems a "firm swat" to a toddler's backside is now considered
abuse?? To me, a puppy and a toddler are nearly identical -- both
'critters' have to be trained!!!!! To my way of thinking, the key is
"humane" training. How much sense does it take to know honey works so
much better than vinegar??? Rewards for good behavior go so much
farther than do reprimands for bad behavior.

Oh, well, I don't live a perfect life (sigh).

Sweet Stitching!!!!!!!

Helen (Skyhooks)
hmardis *a *t uiuc "daht" edu

"reply to" address antispammed -- frog the xxx.

TFTD: Good things turn up when both corners of your mouth do the same!


Angel wrote:

As the mother of a two year old, have you ever noticed the look on our face.
If we yell, spank or punish we're mean and should have our children taken
away, if we do nothing, we're neglectful and should be punished and have our
children taken away. And, it's the truth. We're scared to do anything for
fear we'll be reported to DCFS.

--
Angel

My husband and I raised five children. The oldest is now 42 and the
youngest is 32. I admit that times were different then but some of our
methods might help you. Our children were never allowed to misbehave
in public. If they started to act up one of us (ususally me because
the 4 oldest were girls)would say "Do we need to go to the restroom?"
They knew what that meant - they would either get a "stern talking to"
or a "swat." We could "swat" back then and it wasn't considered
"child abuse." It was hard enough to get their attention but not hard
enough to hurt them. This was never done in public so they were not
embarrassed.

When you took your children to a restaurant in that time period you
were generally seated in a back corner where your children would not
"disturb" the other diners.

Yesterday I visited my local Michaels store. Their was a grandmother
with her three small grandchildren at the check out counter. Those
three children were so well behaved - I had to compliment them. One
of my husband's and my favorite memories is a time at a Carnation Cafe
when an elderly couple came to our table to compliment the behavior of
our five children.

You can do it. You just need to work out some signals your child will
understand.

Susie
"Angel" wrote in message link.net...
As the mother of a two year old, have you ever noticed the look on our face.
If we yell, spank or punish we're mean and should have our children taken
away, if we do nothing, we're neglectful and should be punished and have our
children taken away. And, it's the truth. We're scared to do anything for
fear we'll be reported to DCFS.

--
Angel
My family are the golden threads running
through the tapestry of my life.
My friends are the silver threads running
through the tapestry of my life.
The gold and silver in my tapestry show
happiness, love, sadness, togetherness.
And most important of all love.

Boy, I'm hummin' on this one. I think there's some justification in
some of his remarks, but I'm not smart enough to articulate them. One
stands out to me: I can't be thought of kindly while pregnant and
offered a seat, AS WELL AS treated with respect for my knowledge by my
peers?

I heard something on NPR yesterday: One word by a professor . . . we're
a hugely narcissistic society. Isn't that what the author is stating?

I read a few other posts following up to yours. My daughter says other
mothers her age really treat her badly when she disciplines her children
- even stern admonitions. It's as if nobody wants to do ANYTHING with
little ones except allow them to "be their age and do what they do
naturally" (think Lord of the Flies). And when I talk to young ones
these days, it is immediately apparent that they are EXTREMELY
self-centered. Now, my daughter, when young, always thought she was the
only toad in the puddle and thought the world revolved around her. A
genetic thingy, I think. huge grin. But I'm not talking about *that*
type of self-centeredness.

I pity those who would become adults in another 15 or 20 years. If you
think it's bad now, it's going to be MUCH worse.

Dianne

Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen wrote:

I immediately thought of you when I saw this article in the Hopkins
alumni magazine:

http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/0903web/bigques.html

It's about manners and civility, and he states the root casuses of our
modern-day lack of civility very succinctly, I think. In fact, I tried
to think if there were anything I could add, and couldn't come up with
anything.

anybody else? Ideas?

Sue

--
Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen
The Magazine of Folk and World Music
http://www.dirtylinen.com

Skyhooks wrote:

It seems a "firm swat" to a toddler's backside is now considered
abuse?? To me, a puppy and a toddler are nearly identical -- both
'critters' have to be trained!!!!! To my way of thinking, the key is
"humane" training. How much sense does it take to know honey works so
much better than vinegar??? Rewards for good behavior go so much
farther than do reprimands for bad behavior.

I don't have children, so I don't have much room to talk. But if I tell
my dog to sit (after he's already learned what it means) and he doesn't,
I don't give him the treat I'm offering, either. I put it away and walk
away. Then I come back later and try again. Eventually, he learns to
sit when asked and is rewarded. I know someone who told her daughter
that she could have a kitten if she cleaned the box of the current cat.
When the time came to get the kitten, the girl was still not doing her
"chore" but she got the kitten anyway. What's that about?

I don't think you have to spank your kids, necessarily, but I hear
threat that aren't acted on all the time, so the kids thing that their
actions don't have consequences. I don't know if people are too tired
or what, but to be honest, I see the same thing with people with pets.
"Oh your dog is so well behaved. My dog never does what I ask him!"
Well, that's because their dog gets rewarded no matter what he does, and
mine doesn't. So my dog has a very clear idea of what I want from him,
where theirs might not because it's gotten treats for everything.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

From: Dianne Lewandowski

.... And when I talk to young ones
these days, it is immediately apparent that they are EXTREMELY
self-centered..............

DD and I were discussing that very thing yesterday. Of course, for little
ones up to about age 5 or so, it's normal that they think they are the center
of the universe. That is the way baby brains are hard-wired regardless of
upbringing, culture, etc. They haven't learned, nor have they had the
capability to learn, that they are just tadpoles in a big huge pond.
As **responsible** parents and adults, we need to help out kids learn that
the rest of the world does not revolve around them. It seems to MOI that many
parents today don't bother to actually help their kids learn this -- all they
do is reinforce the fact that "Little Johnny" is the be all and end all of the
world.
By the time kids are old enough to misbehave in the grocery store, they
should also have learned that Mom means business when she gives "that look" or
says "that word". THAT has to be taught at home because THAT requires
punishment so that the child learns that s/he must pay the consequences for his
or her actions.
The hardest thing for most young parents years ago AND today is to be
consistent. The parent has the control and makes the rules. If you teach a
child that doing "XYZ" is bad today then it darned well better be bad tomorrow!
Also, if you tell "Little Johnny" that if he doesn't behave better he will get
punished, then by golly, you had better punish him when he doesn't behave!
There are all sorts of punishment that can be used. If "Little Johnny"
misbehaves and is punished and then pitches a fit, he has to kkow that THAT
behaviour garners him additional punishment. If you are in public and "Little
Johnny" misbehaves and continues to do so even if he is punished, then take the
kid and leave wherever you are. If that means abandoning a grocery cart full
of food, then DO IT!
PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their
WHISKERS!!
Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!

But the use of food as a reward contributes to the obesity problem for
both children and pets. Our vet says our sheltie is the only spayed
female she has seen which is not overweight. Luckily our dog thinks
"baby" carrots are a treat. She is getting some extras now because
showing our house really makes her nervous and she needs extra affection
and rewards for being quiet.

The training of a puppy and a child are similar to a point. If the
puppy is never expected to be anything other than a housepet, you just
expect them to be polite (follow basic commands, not be aggressive with
guests) and neat and learn a few tricks for entertainment value.
Obviously more is required of working animals. A child usually must
learn, one way or another, to become a productive member of human society.

Another problem with constantly rewarding children is they learn to
expect rewards for just doing the minimum expected. They try to find
ways to cheat the system and get more and more self-centered. They go
off to college or work and expect rewards just for showing up and
putting forth the tiniest effort required. They overindulge in all
varieties of "treats" because they don't know how to self-administer the
rewards they believe they deserve.

The goals and expected behaviors need to be re-evaluated frequently and
the training to get to the next level must be provided; it is a huge
thing deserving of a reward for a 2 yo to put away toys but it should be
normal unrewarded behavior for a 7 yo.

Dr. Brat wrote:
I don't think you have to spank your kids, necessarily, but I hear
threat that aren't acted on all the time, so the kids thing that their
actions don't have consequences. I don't know if people are too tired
or what, but to be honest, I see the same thing with people with pets.
"Oh your dog is so well behaved. My dog never does what I ask him!"
Well, that's because their dog gets rewarded no matter what he does, and
mine doesn't. So my dog has a very clear idea of what I want from him,
where theirs might not because it's gotten treats for everything.

--
Brenda Lewis
WIP: ...on hiatus...

Brenda Lewis wrote:
But the use of food as a reward contributes to the obesity problem for
both children and pets. Our vet says our sheltie is the only spayed
female she has seen which is not overweight. Luckily our dog thinks
"baby" carrots are a treat. She is getting some extras now because
showing our house really makes her nervous and she needs extra affection
and rewards for being quiet.

I wasn't suggesting food as a reward for children, I was using food as a
reward as an example. The other example was getting a kitten. All
sorts of things can be a reward. Getting to play with me with his
favorite tug toy is a reward for my dog for completing an agility
course. When we were first training and gave him lots of food rewards,
we cut back on what we put in his bowl to compensate. He's not obese at
all (27 inches tall and weighs 68 lbs.).

The training of a puppy and a child are similar to a point. If the
puppy is never expected to be anything other than a housepet, you just
expect them to be polite (follow basic commands, not be aggressive with
guests) and neat and learn a few tricks for entertainment value.
Obviously more is required of working animals. A child usually must
learn, one way or another, to become a productive member of human society.

Exactly. I was making the comparison because I do have a working animal
of whom much is expected.

Another problem with constantly rewarding children is they learn to
expect rewards for just doing the minimum expected. They try to find
ways to cheat the system and get more and more self-centered. They go
off to college or work and expect rewards just for showing up and
putting forth the tiniest effort required. They overindulge in all
varieties of "treats" because they don't know how to self-administer the
rewards they believe they deserve.

You can up the ante for rewards, just as I do with my dog. Once they
know the minimum, you no longer reward them for that, it's a given.
When I was teaching my dog to fetch, he got a reward just for putting
the dumbbell in his mouth. Then he got rewarded for picking it up and
holding it. Now to earn his reward, he must wait, go get it when sent,
return to me immediately and present it while seated in front of me, and
then return to heel position. Then he gets his reward.

If strangers ask me if they can give him a treat, I say "only if he does
something for you." That might be sitting, it might be shaking or
speaking, but he must do something to earn his treat.

The goals and expected behaviors need to be re-evaluated frequently and
the training to get to the next level must be provided; it is a huge
thing deserving of a reward for a 2 yo to put away toys but it should be
normal unrewarded behavior for a 7 yo.

Exactly. Although it never hurts to go back and reinforce basic good
behavior with a reward once in a while.

The funny thing is when strangers comment on how well behaved my dogs
are but then object when I correct them for misbehaving. How do they
think that the dog got to be well-behaved in the first place?

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*