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#11
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Sheffield is where my Hall mark is registered. The rose is Sheffield's
assay mark. I live about 18 miles away from Sheffield Shirley In message , Abrasha writes Jack Schmidling wrote: The blade itself says Ambassador Cutlery Sheffield Eng. Is this an imposter? I thought Sheffield was a brand name. My good man, Sheffield is a city in England. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com ((this post edited by the moderator. C'mon, Abrasha, we've been down this before. don't make me do this. PWR.)) -- Shirley Shone |
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#12
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On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:58:49 -0700, in ¸õ Abrasha wrote:
Peter, You may be a saint in dealing with this [[headstrong beginner]] (edit. PWR), and yes you ARE missing the obvious here! It's just not done this way. Chalices are just not cast unless you want a thick skinned one, which might be a fine metaphor for our thick skinned friend here. I'm not missing the obvious at all. I'm simply addressing the questions one at a time, as presented, and not jumping beyond the asked question. Jack has neither the experience, skill, nor tools, to do this right off with raising methods, which are of course, as you note, the traditional and correct way to make this sort of shape ( a fine alternative would also be a spinning lathe, if one wanted multiples). Rest assured I did point this out to him in email. But I'm not willing to butt heads over a question that's not been asked. Jack DOES already have the equipment and some experience in sand casting, and wanted to try making these things using that method. So I limit my answers to trying to solve this question. it's a valid question. suppose that shape were not a chalice, normally done with hammers and stakes. Suppose instead it was a complex sculptural form or some sort of similar shape but with deep complex surface textures or decoration for which casting might well be the most efficient way. he'd be asking the same question. He didn't ask me the best way to make this cup, he asked me, and the group, for suggestions as to why it hasn't worked. Simple enough question. If we stick to answering the questions he asks, life stays simpler. And letting him explore answers according to the sequence in which he encounters the problems, seems to let him make more sense of the information. For the record, I tend to learn the same way, though I've always done it in circumstances where it was much easier to follow the prescribed sequence, rather than making one up, as Jack seems happy to do. In this particular case, I've already suggested higher metal temps for pouring, and he's gone so far as to get an immersion pyrometer to be better able to judge that. We've wondered about differing sprue types and numbers, as well as alloys that melt at lower temperatures. I'm simply become convinced that his model is just to thin walled to cast well in a fast freezing metal, using a cold sand mold. But who knows. I'm not that experienced in sand casting. I know I could cast that cup in silver using my own methods, with casting investment, and i've explained that to Jack. Eventually he may be moved to try it, or will do something else. I don't know. That's his choice, and since this is his hobby, and he's still enjoying the exploration, why should I do anything other than offer what advice i can? The only right way to do this, is the way this has been done for many centuries. And that is to get out the hammers and stakes. You can hammer the main body of this puppy in a day. An experienced silversmith will do it in a few hours. You know, it's sometimes wise to remember the old adage that experts are those who will tell you why you cannot do a thing, while amateurs are those who blithely go and do a thing, not knowing it was supposed to be impossible. My crap detectors always go off when I hear a blanket statemtn like "only right way to do this", especially when "this hasn't been quite so defined yet. Casting that cup is not the conventional way to make what's usually called a chalice. You're correct that the long silversmiths tradition says it's done with hammers, sheet metal, stakes, and work. I've made a goodly number of vessels that way myself. Don't need to ask Ted to confirm it. But i've also cast small vessels now and then, when that better suited the piece, and i've seen certain chalices also that were cast, because those too, were designs better cast than raised. So it goes. Jack will, as his experience and toolbox grows, reach these conclusions on his own. Give him time. In the meantime, he may well accidentally make some things that traditional thought says should have been impossible, or make some things in a totally wrong way that end up, surprisingly to you and other experts, to actually sort of work well. Who knows. Maybe he'll turn some "wrong way" method into some personal aesthetic that ends up working fine for him, and we'll end up having to compete with him for gallery space. I'm reminded, for example, of one guy who's doing interesting granulation. He places the grains with a vacuum tweezer that's attached to a tack welder, and it's the tack welder that's doing the permanent attachment of the grains. No traditional granulation involved. If jack were trying this, would we be criticizing him for not doing granulation the right way? In this case, it's an experienced jeweler, and the suff is coming out nicely. So then suddenly it's OK, and an innovation. Get off your high horse here, and relax a bit about it, will ya? No harm is being done to the craft, to you, or to Jack, when he tries things that should be impossible or arent' the right way. He's keeping busy, involved, having fun, learning in his own way, and is happy with his explorations, even the frustrations and challenges they bring. Perhaps he's spending time building square wheels and is soon to get the eureka moment that leads him to reinvent the round one. OK. It's still a lot better way to spend one's retirement than just being parked in front of the T.V. And besides, while it's true an experienced smith can raise such a chalice in a few hours, if Jack can figure out how to sand cast the things, then maybe he can make what he wants in half that time... It all depends on just what sort of finished object he wants to make. His choice, not ours. Peter. |
#13
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-SP- wrote:
"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message ... Having exhausted Peter, myself and rec.crafts.metalworking, trying to solve the problem of casting a simple cup, I am ready to move on to something seemingly straightforward. A picture of my problem cup is at http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup.jpg It looks like you haven't used enough metal to pour. I would want a bit more that what you have there... Also, where's your gas escapes? Anyway gas escapes will help to fill the form faster and so the form could be filled before the fluid metal "freezes". However in that case it does not seem to cause the problem. Otherwise the hollows would be runded at the baseline from gas pressure. They are completely even so it seems to be a temperature problem. Grüße, Heinrich Butschal -- www.juwelen.online-boerse.org www.meister-atelier.de www.schmuckfabrik.de www.medico.butschal.de |
#14
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"Peter W.. Rowe," as you note, the traditional and correct way to make this sort of shape ( a fine alternative would also be a spinning lathe, if one wanted multiples). Actually, I am not even willing to concede that point to him. As it turns out, this "cup" was originally a bell from which I made the pattern. An inverted bell makes a close approximation of a wine cup and to my knowledge, casting bells is not pushing the state of the art. The walls are nowhere less that about 1/8" and aside from experience, one would not consider this particularly thin. I have a purchased wine glass (the one I put all the rubies on) that has very much the same shape and thickness which I assume has been cast. It is much too thick at the bottom to have been spun or hammered. I would have used this for the pattern except I had already put on the rubies. I believe it is brass with silver plating. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com |
#15
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On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:44:06 -0700, in àõ Jack Schmidling wrote:
"Peter W.. Rowe," as you note, the traditional and correct way to make this sort of shape ( a fine alternative would also be a spinning lathe, if one wanted multiples). Actually, I am not even willing to concede that point to him. ....which partly explains why, when forced to edit out some of Abrasha's less polite language, I substituted the word, "headstrong". in describing you. I hope you were not offended. (grin) As I also pointed out in the post you quoite, casting does indeed have times when it's the best way to make a shape, and your two other examples, bells (which in certain metals, are generally cast, since the coarser crystal structure obtained gives a better sound, and in the inexpensive cast brass industries of india (where the cup you bought may well have been made) or the like, where casting brass is a long tradition, are two such examples. Nevertheless, as I've pointed out, and Abrasha has pointed out, and as will almost any other classically and properly trained metalsmith, in SILVER, the finest cups are made from sheet metal, either with spinning lathes, or by hand hammering the metal over stakes to the desired form. The quality of the object one can get this way is FAR superior to a cast silver form in a long list of ways. The metal is far stronger and harder, will take a much better polish, and can be made much lighter, which generally in these things, is preferable both for the comfortable feel of the piece, and the cost factor. As you've discovered large thin walled shapes aren't that easy to cast well in silver, and the degree of flexibility and control one can have over the shape worked with a hammer would astound you. Every material has it's own properties, Jack, and some are better suited to casting, while others are better suited to hand working. Brass is very easy to cast, but not as malleable and workable as silver. So your cast brass cup can be very inexpensive, and after some electroplating, works OK. But you'll not often find a plated cast brass chalice being used to celebrate a mass, for example, nor will you find any cast silver cups for sale at Tiffanies. Both will, if using silver, use items made from sheet metal with either a spinning lathe, some sort of die striking process, or hand forming with hammers. The latter is considered generally to produce the finest and costliest quality of work. Don't fight it. it's just the way it is. You're still free to, and encouraged to, explore casting your cup. i've no problem with that. Just understand that you're exploring a method that isn't quite the accepted best way to make that particular item. And having found that it's easy to cast it in aluminum or zinc (and likely, brass), yet harder to cast it in silver, your also finding for yourself some of the reasons. If you do get a complete casting, and then go to clean it up and polish it, you'll likely discover, in the metal quality, some of the other reasons... Cheers. Peter |
#16
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"Heinrich Butschal" Anyway gas escapes will help to fill the form faster and so the form could be filled before the fluid metal "freezes". However in that case it does not seem to cause the problem.... Take a look at the below link to see the results of my experiments with vents. You will note that the metal was able to rise 3" up a 1/8" hole but would not fall down the side of the cup. http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup2.jpg js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.netfirms.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Gems, Sausage, http://schmidling.netfirms.com |
#17
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"Jack Schmidling" wrote in message ... Having exhausted Peter, myself and rec.crafts.metalworking, trying to solve the problem of casting a simple cup, I am ready to move on to something seemingly straightforward. A picture of my problem cup is at http://schmidling.netfirms.com/cup.jpg JD Williams in Birmingham produce a pewter cup about that size and shape. JD Williams are the oldest pewterer in the UK and were founded over three hundred years ago, and know their business. They told me, when I asked some years ago, that it needs to be about 5mm thick in order to get a decent consistent cast from the mould. And that's pewter, something that flows better than silver, is easier to flux and is worked at a much lower temperature. -- William Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government |
#18
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Oh please Peter, get off it.
There is a very good reason things are done a certain way FOR CENTURIES! No matter how much our friend Jack it trying to do it his way, nothing is going to change that. When I hired my first apprentice, I told him to rent and watch the movie "The Karate Kid". I did this, because to me, this movie was not at all about karate, but about a master/apprentice relationship. Mr. Miyagi says "Wax on, wax off" to his apprentice. The apprentice hates it. The master says "Don't question it, do it. I do not need to explain". Later on in the movie, the apprentice reaches enlightenment when he realizes the purpose of "wax on, wax off", and the depth of the lessons. It is no different in teaching metalsmithing. There is a lot of mastery in this newsgroup, and a lot of willingness to share it. I have been participating in this group since April 7, 1996, which is the earliest date I was able to find a posting record of. Over the years I have shared a lot of my knowledge with people willing to learn and willing to take to good and the bad from me. Never until now has an unmitigated jackass like Jack come around and demand to be instructed to fit his way. It doesn't work that way in teaching a craft. Or any teaching for that matter. The student doesn't get to dictate the curriculum, the teacher does. You want to make a chalice? This is how it's done. Fine with me. You want to **** against the wind? Fine, you'll get wet. Don't come asking me how to **** against the wind without getting wet. He is a stubborn jackass, period. And until he proves otherwise, and is willing to learn by the rules, established centuries ago, he can go ahead and keep ****ing against the wind until his face turns blue. If he were my apprentice, he would have been out on his ass months ago. This would have been his loss, not mine. Back in Holland we have a saying, that goes: "Zachte heelmeesters, maken stinkende wonden". Literal translation: "gentle healing masters make stinking wounds". Peter, you are the healing master here, and all you are doing is creating a monster, with an ability to create objects of exceptionally **** poor craftsmanship. It is not up to me to judge Jack's ability to design, or to judge his aesthetics. I am however well qualified to judge the craftsmanship of his work. It is of the lowest possible order, and if he continues this way, it will always stay there. He will never get any better. The road to mastery is a hard one, and it not the road Jack has chosen to take. He is a dabbler. How do they say it in English? The man is a "Jack of all trades, a master of none". In my studio I keep an interesting article that I share from time to time with people. It is an article published in Esquire Magazine about the road to mastery. Right now I'm blanking who wrote it. I believe it was George Leonard, but I'm not sure. I challenge Jack to take a trip to Pforzheim sometime and visit the Goldschmiedeschule (School for goldsmithing) there. He should visit the lobby there, where the work of the students is displayed. Work of teenagers mostly between the ages of 14 and 16, who have only been doing goldsmithing for 1 or 2 years (it is a 2 year program). And who in most cases have never touched a piece of metal in their lives before. He'll wet his pants in shame. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#19
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Jack Schmidling wrote:
As it turns out, this "cup" was originally a bell from which I made the pattern. An inverted bell makes a close approximation of a wine cup and to my knowledge, casting bells is not pushing the state of the art. A bell is not a chalice. You are comparing apples to oranges. Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#20
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"Heinrich Butschal" wrote in message ... -SP- wrote: It looks like you haven't used enough metal to pour. I would want a bit more that what you have there... Also, where's your gas escapes? Anyway gas escapes will help to fill the form faster and so the form could be filled before the fluid metal "freezes". However in that case it does not seem to cause the problem. Otherwise the hollows would be runded at the baseline from gas pressure. They are completely even so it seems to be a temperature problem. Hang on... Is that a cup *without* a stem?? I was thinking the sprue 'was' the stem, heh. Hmm.. Ok, plenty of metal there, so I'll go along with what you're saying. A couple of ways around this problem (as well as the temperature issue), is to wiggle the model around to create a thicker wall. Also, I would shorten the sprue too. I think it would cast ok then. -SP- Grüße, Heinrich Butschal -- www.juwelen.online-boerse.org www.meister-atelier.de www.schmuckfabrik.de www.medico.butschal.de |
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