OT SS going to the source

Cheryl, I really meant no personal insult. I just get emotionally
drowned when I find people who cannot imagine - or even entertain the
idea - that there is another side to an issue. Or who rigidly refuse to
see the world beyond their own imaginations. Or who make no allowances
for other people's frailties.

You say on the one hand that people should know better (regarding scams
and the like) and I have been pointing out why some people don't know
better. You refuse to see it. You bring in ideas such as, [paraphrased]
"Everyone is equal - everyone starts with sperm and egg." That rigid
refusal is what got my knickers in a knot. And I now know why.

So, there is no animosity nor emotional garbage in this post. From many
years of experience, I'll always try to err on the side of caution and
generosity. I don't always live up to my standards, but I always try.
I know what it's like to live up to someone elses determination of what
one ought to be, and that only they have the truth on their side.

Dianne



Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Ok Dianne -
Personal insults - be grateful I don't do the same! That would put be on
your level. I refuse.

Cheryl


On 1/11/05 12:50 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:


Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Then what causes it if not stupidity, greed or fear.

An inability to discern, for some people. Or exceptionally gifted con
artists who have conned some of the best and the brightest. Happens all
the time.

The very fact that you don't get it puts you in the category of
"disabled" from a certain perspective.


But we are made equally, from the same act of procreation - the union of a
sperm and an ova. We have the same basic wiring (barring genetic or
congenital diseases/disorders).

Therein lies your difficulty in understanding. No. We are NOT all
created equally. We are all born with different IQ levels. Different
specialties - which is why some become expert welders and others become
expert financiers. I have a directional disability. That doesn't make
me stupid. But obviously my wiring gets blitzed in that area. My
brother can't spell as well as I could (grin), but that doesn't make him
an idiot. In fact, he's a genius at math.


I would postulate that "challenged" students would fall outside that "norm".

And that's where your theory fails. I have piano students who are
challenged, but they are as bright in other areas as anyone else.

We ALL have disabilities in one form or another. There is no such thing
as "normal". Ask any psychology professor.



I SAID BASIC SKILLS TO BE BUILT UPON - and no age added - I've meet all too
many college grads that lack those basic skills. Hold them back until they
get it or move them to a different track of education.

No, you said they should be cemented in by the third grade.

This conversation is fruitless . . . as usual. But I now know further
where you are coming from when you post. In fact, this conversation
made a light-bulb go off as I folded laundry this morning. I'm really
angry at my mother. You merely epitomize her faults. I'll try not to
let that emotional hot button get in my way in the future. Then again,
being human (there's that "normal" thing again), I may forget my
resolution and why I made it.

Dianne



--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

Oddly enough, I know several people who can't read or do basic math who
happen to be outstanding citizens. They are hard-working people who
live to help others and do not believe any task is beneath their
dignity. But yes, they are easily conned so they do need to have
someone protect their interests. I believe that is more in line with
what you are trying to get across.

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
I was speaking philosophically to some degree - I really don't know how to
"enforce" it. I deeply and sincerely believe that if one CAN NOT read or do
basic math (add, subtract), one can not be a good citizen or a responsible
one. By third grade (age 8-10), those basic skills need to be in place to
give each child a fighting chance.

I have not advocated not giving those with disabilities an education.

--
Brenda

K wrote:

Heh. I am one. It depends on your definition of normal. But there are an
awful lot of people at the ends of the bell curve.

And a whole lot more in between. :-) Which is what I'm saying.

Actually, she said:

"And these skills ought to be in place, ready to be
built upon, by the end of third grade."

I stand corrected.

She is right -- the *basic* skills she's talking about should be in place
at a very early age, because if they aren't, the child is always playing
catch up.

You can tell a child 10,000 times not to slam a door, and carry with
that some sort of responsibility/punishment. Some will stop at a young
age, some won't stop til after they own their own home and it dawns on
them *why*, and others will continue to slam the door until the day they
die.

But yes, the values of critical thinking, right/wrong, should be
instilled from infancy. Then again, we move into a discussion about
what exactly you mean by these terms. So, for this conversation I will
assume you mean things like "don't steal or cheat", the consequences of
lying (tough because everybody lies), etc. I think everyone can agree
on those at least intellectually. How you teach a child not to be
"conned" is another matter entirely and I would offer often has to do
with late brain development, which has to do with "judgment". I would
also think that heavy teen drinking or other drug use could affect
whether or not this late brain development ever occurs. And not everyone
is born with equal IQ or abilities. Thus, we're back to square one. :-)
Dianne
--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

"Dianne Lewandowski" wrote.

If they were so transparent, there would be no Jim Jones, or the myriad
serial "husbands" or serial "wives". These are just examples. Many
people are swept up. Not always because of greed. Not always because
they don't have brains.

It is easy enough to delete a "too good to be true" email (my ISP even
quarantines them for me), or be suspicious of an out of the blue "you have
won a cruise" telemarketing call--but some con artists devote considerable
time and effort to cultivating their victims. People are not always
greedy--sometimes they are lonely, or feeling low (the husband I mentioned
was having a hard time adjusting to being "out of it" in retirement after
an active business career, and so was vulnerable to a pitch which flattered
his business acumen and experience)and these people exploit their
vulnerabilities. Where I live, both a financial advisor and a contractor
took considerable time to work themselves into evangelistic churches, and
then scammed members who wanted to deal with "good Christian" businesses
with very plausible looking deals that took months to be revealed for the
crooked schemes they were.
By thinking these people must be stupid, sometimes we are just looking for
the magic talisman that says it won't happen to me.
Dawne

On 1/11/05 3:31 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:

Cheryl, I really meant no personal insult.
No polite response is possible - you are responsible for what you said.
I just get emotionally
drowned when I find people who cannot imagine - or even entertain the
idea - that there is another side to an issue. Or who rigidly refuse to
see the world beyond their own imaginations. Or who make no allowances
for other people's frailties
You say on the one hand that people should know better (regarding scams
and the like) and I have been pointing out why some people don't know
better. You refuse to see it. You bring in ideas such as, [paraphrased]
"Everyone is equal - everyone starts with sperm and egg." That rigid
refusal is what got my knickers in a knot. And I now know why.
No - what I keep saying - I don't understand it - why are some many
apparently intelligent people taken in.

We are all created by the same gift of life. We are all truly equally
gifted. You only see the frailness - I see the possibility of all men and
women.

Cheryl

Brenda -

Better said. Thank you

I have this pet peeve about responsible citizenship - have had from about
7th grade.

My history teacher that year was a man whose family came out East Germany
and had found relatives living in the States. While I am sure it mostly fell
on deaf ears, he spent a lot of time talking about the duties of
citizenship, mostly about voting, especially about informed voting, about
paying a fair tax, about tyranny.

And just to play devil's advocate a bit - is it possible to be a good
citizen with out being a responsible one? How about the other - responsible
without being a good citizen?
I am wrestling with this a bit due to a conversation I've had recently with
some one I know via Scouts.
Cheryl



On 1/11/05 4:16 PM, in article ,
"Brenda" wrote:

Oddly enough, I know several people who can't read or do basic math who
happen to be outstanding citizens. They are hard-working people who
live to help others and do not believe any task is beneath their
dignity. But yes, they are easily conned so they do need to have
someone protect their interests. I believe that is more in line with
what you are trying to get across.

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
I was speaking philosophically to some degree - I really don't know how to
"enforce" it. I deeply and sincerely believe that if one CAN NOT read or do
basic math (add, subtract), one can not be a good citizen or a responsible
one. By third grade (age 8-10), those basic skills need to be in place to
give each child a fighting chance.

I have not advocated not giving those with disabilities an education.

--
Brenda

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
No - what I keep saying - I don't understand it - why are some many
apparently intelligent people taken in.

Because some con artists are exceptionally adept at deception. For an
excellent example: Some of the televangalists who have bilked many poor
and "comfortable" and live the life of luxury before they are caught.

Serial husbands and black widows who pray on the unsuspecting. I
believe it was Dawne who posted on this subject.

We are all created by the same gift of life. We are all truly equally
gifted.

No, we're not. That's where we disagree. Do I believe all people have
"something special?" Of course. But equally gifted? No. I have better
than average skills in some areas. Average skills in other areas. Ahh
but that I would be as equally gifted as Lang Lang! None of my gifts
even comes close!

You only see the frailness - I see the possibility of all men and
women.

Where you found that in my conversation is a mystery.

Was it not your argument that you cannot understand how people can be
conned?

I merely pointed out we're all not created equal - starting with IQ.
Some humans simply don't have the capacity to spot a scam for any number
of reasons which do not necessarily have to do with greed.

I am making allowances for people's frailties - while you are demanding
and insisting that no self-respecting adult should fall for a scam.
That's been the argument between us from the moment we each posted to
this topic.
Dianne

--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Brenda -

Better said. Thank you

So, you are conceding that some people are born with less ability and
are less gifted? If so, how much less ability or giftedness are you
willing to accept?

My history teacher that year was a man whose family came out East Germany
and had found relatives living in the States. While I am sure it mostly fell
on deaf ears, he spent a lot of time talking about the duties of
citizenship, mostly about voting, especially about informed voting, about
paying a fair tax, about tyranny.

I grew up with very strong values instilled about citizenship and
adulthood. Taking responsibility for one's mistakes. Taking
responsibility as a citizen (I have volunteered often in civic affairs
and always vote and stay as informed as possible). Lying in our
household was a heinous crime. My parents ran a tight ship, and their
parents held the same values.

But not everyone is born with the capacity. Nor are they born into a
family that instills these values. Nor are they in school systems which
also promote them. One has only to read here, recently, the posts on
cheating in the classroom to know that somewhere we are failing as a
society.

Do I think there ever was a time when 99% of the citizens took
responsibility and all these other related values to heart? No.

Do I think the percentages are lower now than 50 or 60 years ago? Yes.

And just to play devil's advocate a bit - is it possible to be a good
citizen with out being a responsible one? How about the other - responsible
without being a good citizen?

Define good citizen.

Define "responsible".

The reason I'm asking those questions? Because (as an example), if you
asked a question of 50 parents whether they encourage cheating or lying,
they will all raise their hands and say, "Absolutely not!" But if their
children are caught in school cheating or lying, many of those same
parents will defend their children with one excuse after another.

So, the definition depends upon when and how you're asking the question,
and also who it is affecting. :-)

Dianne
--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

On 1/12/05 3:34 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Brenda -

Better said. Thank you

So, you are conceding that some people are born with less ability and
are less gifted? If so, how much less ability or giftedness are you
willing to accept?

Ok - you're right - everyone is handicapped.

Good enough for you!

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Ok - you're right - everyone is handicapped.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said everyone is handicapped.
That's a pretty strong word. I said we're not all created equal, and
that some have lesser (or more) abilities than others.
Dianne
--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com