OT SS going to the source

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
There is grey - but how can holding to a rule -
If in Doubt - don't

Because the people with difficulties in these areas don't experience
doubt. I know that's hard to conceive.

Is anything other than a black or white.

Not sure what you mean here, since you accepted that there is gray.

Knowing your weakness is a strength in my eyes. I just feel that everyone
should learn what their weaknesses are and learn to compensate EARLY in
life.

Some people can't. It's that simple. We have a large table in front of
our couch. My husband often shifts leg position and bangs into articles
on the table. You'd think after the first or second time, he'd learn to
be mindful. Nope. 13 years later, he still does it. I don't scold
(although I've joked about it). He's always sorry. It's what makes him
who he is. I've learned not to put anything fragile there.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if each of us on earth were perfect.
Dianne
--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 1/10/05 2:29 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:
Cheryl Isaak wrote:

It seems to such a cut and dry issue to me - when in doubt, don't, be it
money, marriage or any major decision.

Yes, you see the world as black and white, when in reality the vast
majority is varying hues of gray.

There is grey - but how can holding to a rule -
If in Doubt - don't

Is anything other than a black or white.

I dunno, I'm with Dianne on this one. It sounds pretty absolute to me.
Essentially, I understand you as saying "don't take risks." And the
fact is that risks can be a good thing. Some people are more risk
adverse than others, but risk takers have moved society forward in many
cases.

I know that for myself, if I followed your rule, I would have missed out
on many good things. In particular, I would still be in Ohio (although
you could argue that I wouldn't have ended up in Ohio in the first
place! LOL!)

Whether the research was "ongoing" or had reached a bottom-line
conclusion, the research showed that many people - who get along in
adult life just fine - have trusting natures and don't "see" the scam.
It isn't a matter of them (necessarily) being greedy.

I suppose one can liken it to how different people learn. I have many
areas of difficulties, especially directional. We've discussed that
here. Someone who hasn't a problem in this area has a hard time
discerning how anyone can *have* a problem. I get along in life just
fine and have learned to compensate for this difficulty. But that
doesn't mean the difficulty isn't there. In my case, it doesn't cause
me any financial or personal grief. But for someone with a different
set of difficulties, I can see how it might interfere every once in
awhile.

Knowing your weakness is a strength in my eyes. I just feel that everyone
should learn what their weaknesses are and learn to compensate EARLY in
life.

And we all should live by your standards? I coulda sworn this was a
free country! LOL!

But seriously, let me quick poking fun at you and make my point: maybe
people are learning to sharpen their strengths early on and only start
to deal with their weaknesses later. Maybe some weaknesses show up
later. Life is a process and I don't think that there are any fixed
deadlines for achieving things.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough - I expect 90% of the population
to spot a scam, especially well publicized ones, like the Nigerian ones.

On 1/10/05 5:51 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
There is grey - but how can holding to a rule -
If in Doubt - don't

Because the people with difficulties in these areas don't experience
doubt. I know that's hard to conceive.

Then how did they survive past childhood - doubt is part of the necessary
self protection instinct. It keeps you out of dark alleys.

Is anything other than a black or white.

Not sure what you mean here, since you accepted that there is gray.

Knowing your weakness is a strength in my eyes. I just feel that everyone
should learn what their weaknesses are and learn to compensate EARLY in
life.

Some people can't. It's that simple.


I said know your weaknesses, not be prefect. I think everyone, via the best
possible education, should understand fairly basic things about themselves;
their relative strengths and weaknesses - of as many areas as possible.

We have a large table in front of
our couch. My husband often shifts leg position and bangs into articles
on the table. You'd think after the first or second time, he'd learn to
be mindful. Nope. 13 years later, he still does it. I don't scold
(although I've joked about it). He's always sorry. It's what makes him
who he is. I've learned not to put anything fragile there.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if each of us on earth were perfect.
Dianne

Hell - that would be boring.

As to your husband's "kicking" the table, maybe the table is just plain too
close to the couch.

Cheryl Isaak wrote:


Then how did they survive past childhood - doubt is part of the necessary
self protection instinct. It keeps you out of dark alleys.


I like dark alleys. It's how I get most of my stash money...

--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

On 1/10/05 6:56 PM, in article
et, "Dr. Brat"
wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 1/10/05 2:29 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:
Cheryl Isaak wrote:

It seems to such a cut and dry issue to me - when in doubt, don't, be it
money, marriage or any major decision.

Yes, you see the world as black and white, when in reality the vast
majority is varying hues of gray.

There is grey - but how can holding to a rule -
If in Doubt - don't

Is anything other than a black or white.

I dunno, I'm with Dianne on this one. It sounds pretty absolute to me.
Essentially, I understand you as saying "don't take risks." And the
fact is that risks can be a good thing. Some people are more risk
adverse than others, but risk takers have moved society forward in many
cases.

Are there unacceptable risks? Especially when it comes to personal security.
I was addressing the issue of scams and cons. Most of them are so
transparent as to be ludicrous.


I know that for myself, if I followed your rule, I would have missed out
on many good things. In particular, I would still be in Ohio (although
you could argue that I wouldn't have ended up in Ohio in the first
place! LOL!)

Ohio - horrors (vvbg)

Whether the research was "ongoing" or had reached a bottom-line
conclusion, the research showed that many people - who get along in
adult life just fine - have trusting natures and don't "see" the scam.
It isn't a matter of them (necessarily) being greedy.

I suppose one can liken it to how different people learn. I have many
areas of difficulties, especially directional. We've discussed that
here. Someone who hasn't a problem in this area has a hard time
discerning how anyone can *have* a problem. I get along in life just
fine and have learned to compensate for this difficulty. But that
doesn't mean the difficulty isn't there. In my case, it doesn't cause
me any financial or personal grief. But for someone with a different
set of difficulties, I can see how it might interfere every once in
awhile.

Knowing your weakness is a strength in my eyes. I just feel that everyone
should learn what their weaknesses are and learn to compensate EARLY in
life.

And we all should live by your standards? I coulda sworn this was a
free country! LOL!
I think it is part of the basic education - or as my DH put it, you should
know "where" you're stupid! Of course that is contrary to the Peter
Principle (people are promoted to their level of incompetence).

But seriously, let me quick poking fun at you and make my point: maybe
people are learning to sharpen their strengths early on and only start
to deal with their weaknesses later. Maybe some weaknesses show up
later. Life is a process and I don't think that there are any fixed
deadlines for achieving things.


I think that the way we educate children, especially currently, focuses too
much on the "feel good" parts and not enough on developing personal
strengths and learning to compensate for weaknesses. Once those basic coping
mechanisms are learned, they can be applied as needed through out life.

And there are certain things everyone with normal intelligence should know -
how to add and subtract (basic math) and how to read, draw information from
what you have just read and EITHER discuss what you have read OR make a
decision based on it. And these skills ought to be in place, ready to be
built upon, by the end of third grade.

Cheryl

On 1/11/05 6:44 AM, in article
et, "Dr. Brat"
wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:


Then how did they survive past childhood - doubt is part of the necessary
self protection instinct. It keeps you out of dark alleys.


I like dark alleys. It's how I get most of my stash money...

But you're not a delicate little flower like me!

Spew!!!

Cheryl

Cheryl Isaak wrote in
:

And there are certain things everyone with normal intelligence should
know - how to add and subtract (basic math) and how to read, draw
information from what you have just read and EITHER discuss what you
have read OR make a decision based on it. And these skills ought to be
in place, ready to be built upon, by the end of third grade.

I don't know why, but they aren't in far too many cases. This is something
our college is struggling with right now, how to assess those very basic
skills and ensure that our students leave here with them. We know many
don't come here with them. They may learn some of them in a class but they
dont apply them to others (they can pass ENG101, but they can't use what
they learn to write a science lab report). It may be the emphasis on "feel
good" over "do good" in schools, but how did that come about? I know in my
public school teaching experience, I had few parents who expected me to
make their children work harder, and many who expected me to cut them a
break. That's one of the reasons I went into higher ed -- it's easier to
hold the students accountable without parental interference.

K

On 1/11/05 8:08 AM, in article
, "K"
wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote in
:

And there are certain things everyone with normal intelligence should
know - how to add and subtract (basic math) and how to read, draw
information from what you have just read and EITHER discuss what you
have read OR make a decision based on it. And these skills ought to be
in place, ready to be built upon, by the end of third grade.

I should add " be able to explain that decision ".

I don't know why, but they aren't in far too many cases. This is something
our college is struggling with right now, how to assess those very basic
skills and ensure that our students leave here with them. We know many
don't come here with them.
They should not be in college then, IMNSHO, but I know I am the minority on
that.
They may learn some of them in a class but they
dont apply them to others (they can pass ENG101, but they can't use what
they learn to write a science lab report). It may be the emphasis on "feel
good" over "do good" in schools, but how did that come about? I know in my
public school teaching experience, I had few parents who expected me to
make their children work harder, and many who expected me to cut them a
break. That's one of the reasons I went into higher ed -- it's easier to
hold the students accountable without parental interference.

K

Exactly.

And what is worse is so many teachers not seeming to do anything but "cut
slack" - a grade for class participation that could raise a D to B. How
would a parent know if there is trouble?

Cheryl

Cheryl Isaak wrote in
:

And what is worse is so many teachers not seeming to do anything but
"cut slack" - a grade for class participation that could raise a D to
B. How would a parent know if there is trouble?

Well, I will say the ones who do that are far fewer than the ones that
don't, in my experience (and from my teacher's perspective). They are out
there, but that sort of stuff just makes the teacher's job harder in the
long run.

K

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
Are there unacceptable risks? Especially when it comes to personal security.
I was addressing the issue of scams and cons. Most of them are so
transparent as to be ludicrous.

If they were so transparent, there would be no Jim Jones, or the myriad
serial "husbands" or serial "wives". These are just examples. Many
people are swept up. Not always because of greed. Not always because
they don't have brains.

We are not all made equally. I know. For some of us, it simply doesn't
make sense. But for others . . .

You simply will not make any allowances for the frailties of others.
That's an extremely narrow perspective of the world.

I think it is part of the basic education - or as my DH put it, you should
know "where" you're stupid!

Ahhh, again you have the premise that we are all equal, with an equal
ability. That's just not true in the real world. Varying IQ levels,
learning disabilities. The list is endless.

I think that the way we educate children, especially currently, focuses too
much on the "feel good" parts and not enough on developing personal
strengths and learning to compensate for weaknesses. Once those basic coping
mechanisms are learned, they can be applied as needed through out life.

I had all those "developing personal strengths" as a child. Lots of
tough rules to live by, and a mother like you who had no compassion for
anyone different than herself. None of that made one hoot of difference
for directional differences. I didn't even realize what the difficulty
was until about a year ago when someone on RCTN posted about a website.
I was in seventh heaven. Finally able to understand what was going
on. I had self-blamed my entire life, thanks to a mother who made
absolutely no allowance for anything other than her idea of perfection.

And there are certain things everyone with normal intelligence should know -
how to add and subtract (basic math) and how to read, draw information from
what you have just read and EITHER discuss what you have read OR make a
decision based on it.

Yes, I think schools have done a poor job in some parts of the country
of teaching critical thinking skills. I see it every week in my
students. But I have taught enough "challenged" students to know that
we all learn differently, have different abilities to cope, and
different time frames in which to learn a given task. And some (like my
husband kicking the table) just never get it, even though he has a high
IQ and is a professional with solid values.

And these skills ought to be in place, ready to be
built upon, by the end of third grade.

Wow. You give no allowance at all for sound research that says the
brain doesn't stop maturing until sometime between the ages of 22 and
25. Many in third grade still believe in Santa Claus.
Dianne

--
"The Journal of Needlework" - The E-zine for All Needleworkers
http://journal.heritageshoppe.com