Copyright and stealing (ON topic)

I've been rather bothered over the last few days by the posts indirectly
addressing copyright issues here. This is a subject that's been hashed over
many times before, and not a lot that's new is ever added to this debate.
Still, I feel I need to vent.

I've seen several posts advocating the position that it's okay to use
copyrighted images or patterns without permission because the designer
"should" share with everyone. What I don't get is why permission isn't
asked. It's really not that hard to write a simple email. I've asked for
permission numerous times, and only been turned down once. (That one time
was funny in retrospect, because the design was not particularly original.)
Most designers I've talked to are incredibly generous and very flattered
that someone would ask. That's the important part: asking.

If my neighbor wanted to use my lawn mower, I'd let her borrow it in a
heartbeat. But I'd be mighty ticked if I found she had gone into my garage
and used it without asking first, as would most of you. Our very own Dr.
Quilter is upset because someone went into her house without asking, and
rightly so. Many of you know that I'm always happy to spend time answering
questions about quilting and longarming. I'm glad to share what I've spent
many hours learning because I'm grateful that others were willing to share
with me. But I've also had aspiring longarmers call up, posing as potential
customers, and try to take my knowledge on the sly. Believe me, that's a
VERY unpleasant feeling, especially when I would have been willing to help
them out if they'd been honest.

Yes, there are times when it's not easy to ask for permission. But there's a
real human being on the other side of the equation, who has real feelings,
and could feel hurt if someone takes something without permission just
because it's inconvenient to ask. Doing the right thing isn't always
convenient, but it's still important.

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now. You can safely read the newsgroup again.
--
Kathy A. (Woodland, CA)
Queen of Fabric Tramps
http://www.kayneyquilting.com ,
remove the obvious to reply

Asking an artist for permission is fun, it gives you a chance to be
fawning without demeaning yourself.
ok, all jokes aside. Most of the posts that could be construed as giving
permission to ignore copyright laws seemed (to me) more like an attempt
to assure Tina that what she did was forgivable, because what she did,
she did with no evil intent and she immediately reposted the pics in an
approved manner. Yes, some did seem to suggest that posting copyrighted
material as she did was ok, because it was a tribute to the artist, and
that *isnt* right, its more respectful, as you said, Kathy, to ask
first. Ok... so.. knowing Tina as we do (huge heart and full of
unrestrained enthusiasm and smart) we can safely assume that this is
something she wont do again (and probably deeply regrets having done in
the first place considering all the brou haha resulting) so... perhaps
its time to move on to more important issues such as who is supplying
the choccies (and good n plenty) for the next meeting??
Diana

Kathy Applebaum wrote:
I've been rather bothered over the last few days by the posts indirectly
addressing copyright issues here. This is a subject that's been hashed over
many times before, and not a lot that's new is ever added to this debate.
Still, I feel I need to vent.

I've seen several posts advocating the position that it's okay to use
copyrighted images or patterns without permission because the designer
"should" share with everyone. What I don't get is why permission isn't
asked. It's really not that hard to write a simple email. I've asked for
permission numerous times, and only been turned down once. (That one time
was funny in retrospect, because the design was not particularly original.)
Most designers I've talked to are incredibly generous and very flattered
that someone would ask. That's the important part: asking.

If my neighbor wanted to use my lawn mower, I'd let her borrow it in a
heartbeat. But I'd be mighty ticked if I found she had gone into my garage
and used it without asking first, as would most of you. Our very own Dr.
Quilter is upset because someone went into her house without asking, and
rightly so. Many of you know that I'm always happy to spend time answering
questions about quilting and longarming. I'm glad to share what I've spent
many hours learning because I'm grateful that others were willing to share
with me. But I've also had aspiring longarmers call up, posing as potential
customers, and try to take my knowledge on the sly. Believe me, that's a
VERY unpleasant feeling, especially when I would have been willing to help
them out if they'd been honest.

Yes, there are times when it's not easy to ask for permission. But there's a
real human being on the other side of the equation, who has real feelings,
and could feel hurt if someone takes something without permission just
because it's inconvenient to ask. Doing the right thing isn't always
convenient, but it's still important.

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now. You can safely read the newsgroup again.

Thank you Diana - but allow me to also clarify, I never meant for any
of the pictures to go without credit in the first place. I fully
intended to post the names of the quilters and the names of their
quilts. If you noticed, if anyone noticed, on the first night, the
pictures were only posted with the numbers they are assigned by the
digital camera. I was exhausted and excited and had not even titled
the phots when they were posted.

Since the brou ha ha, I made the album private, deleted the album and
even went back to work the next day and clarified, what I could and
could not "legally" photograph, what I could and could not "legally"
post to my own personal website (not a Webshots site where they can be
purchased/downloaded or put on mugs, t-shirts, cards, etc.) and since
then, I have not posted them anywhere publicly and am not sure that I
ever will make them public.

I have also, since this brou ha ha started, talked to artists
personally and asked their permission to photograph/post on a private
website, their quilts. And yes, it is a LOT of fun, it is very
reassuring and encouraging to talk with the artists themselves.

I personally don't think it is "ok" to post copyrighted material on a
public website. That's why the first day I worked IQF, I ASKED what I
could and could not photograph. My husband is a professional
photographer, and he is ANAL about copyright laws. He would personally
wring my neck if I violated any copyright laws, especially if I did it
on one of our computers or even worse, on HIS website!

I may be new, naive, enthusiastic and excited, but NO, I am not stupid
and I am not a thief and I would hate it if some wonderful quilter
thought I just stole his/her design or didn't give him/her credit for
all the wonderful work they did.

I guess that's really part of what started this all. I stated right
off the bat that I was tired and had not cleaned up the photos or done
anything with them (put credits) when I posted them. Ok, my mistake, I
should have waited to post them until I had taken the time to do that
and I am sorry. But I never would have intentionally violated a
copyright law. I would have never intentionally insulted an artist or
stolen their work or not given them credit.

geez, I already feel like I've been given my 50 lashes
DH says if someone really wants to make something of it, give them the
phone number for his copyright lawyer,
I say, screw it, I made a mistake, I apologized, I fixed it, I'm sorry,
I won't do it again, let it go

Tina

"Get it?"
"Got it!"
"Good!" one of our family "isms" that could apply here! "Nuff said.


"Tina" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thank you Diana - but allow me to also clarify, I never meant for any
of the pictures to go without credit in the first place. I fully
intended to post the names of the quilters and the names of their
quilts. If you noticed, if anyone noticed, on the first night, the
pictures were only posted with the numbers they are assigned by the
digital camera. I was exhausted and excited and had not even titled
the phots when they were posted.

Since the brou ha ha, I made the album private, deleted the album and
even went back to work the next day and clarified, what I could and
could not "legally" photograph, what I could and could not "legally"
post to my own personal website (not a Webshots site where they can be
purchased/downloaded or put on mugs, t-shirts, cards, etc.) and since
then, I have not posted them anywhere publicly and am not sure that I
ever will make them public.

I have also, since this brou ha ha started, talked to artists
personally and asked their permission to photograph/post on a private
website, their quilts. And yes, it is a LOT of fun, it is very
reassuring and encouraging to talk with the artists themselves.

I personally don't think it is "ok" to post copyrighted material on a
public website. That's why the first day I worked IQF, I ASKED what I
could and could not photograph. My husband is a professional
photographer, and he is ANAL about copyright laws. He would personally
wring my neck if I violated any copyright laws, especially if I did it
on one of our computers or even worse, on HIS website!

I may be new, naive, enthusiastic and excited, but NO, I am not stupid
and I am not a thief and I would hate it if some wonderful quilter
thought I just stole his/her design or didn't give him/her credit for
all the wonderful work they did.

I guess that's really part of what started this all. I stated right
off the bat that I was tired and had not cleaned up the photos or done
anything with them (put credits) when I posted them. Ok, my mistake, I
should have waited to post them until I had taken the time to do that
and I am sorry. But I never would have intentionally violated a
copyright law. I would have never intentionally insulted an artist or
stolen their work or not given them credit.

geez, I already feel like I've been given my 50 lashes
DH says if someone really wants to make something of it, give them the
phone number for his copyright lawyer,
I say, screw it, I made a mistake, I apologized, I fixed it, I'm sorry,
I won't do it again, let it go

Tina

And in the policy of Complete Disclosure, a quote swiped from Danny Kaye in
The Court Jester grinnin and duckin

--pig, who has a fair attachment to that quote herself.......


On 10/24/05 14:54, in article 9_a7f.467644$x96.295375@attbi_s72, "KJ"
wrote:

"Get it?"
"Got it!"
"Good!" one of our family "isms" that could apply here! "Nuff said.

Really? I guess it's just a natural flow of thought. After we would
chastize the kids about something...this was the ending. PS I love Danny
Kaye

KJ

"Listpig" wrote in message
...
And in the policy of Complete Disclosure, a quote swiped from Danny Kaye
in
The Court Jester grinnin and duckin

--pig, who has a fair attachment to that quote herself.......


On 10/24/05 14:54, in article 9_a7f.467644$x96.295375@attbi_s72, "KJ"
wrote:

"Get it?"
"Got it!"
"Good!" one of our family "isms" that could apply here! "Nuff said.

"Listpig" wrote in message
...
And in the policy of Complete Disclosure, a quote swiped from Danny Kaye
in
The Court Jester grinnin and duckin


We are very fond of the chalice from the palace and the flagon with the
dragon...

--
Kathy A. (Woodland, CA)
Queen of Fabric Tramps
http://www.kayneyquilting.com ,
remove the obvious to reply

I've asked many pattern designers for permission to maybe sell one or two
things made from their patterns---this also includes embroidery designs.
The majority say go ahead and make a million bucks with them. If only I
could do that(BEG)! So far I've been turned down by only one person--that
person is someone locally and occ. on this group(not often).. I no longer
will buy her patterns. Unfortunately, I have many ideas and designs running
around in my head, but do not have the artistic talent to get them out of
there. I have great respect for those that design patterns and embroidery
designs
Gen

"Kathy Applebaum" wrote in message
om...

I've seen several posts advocating the position that it's okay to use
copyrighted images or patterns without permission because the designer
"should" share with everyone. What I don't get is why permission isn't
asked. It's really not that hard to write a simple email. I've asked for
permission numerous times, and only been turned down once. (That one time
was funny in retrospect, because the design was not particularly
original.)
Most designers I've talked to are incredibly generous and very flattered
that someone would ask. That's the important part: asking.

There is no copyright protection at Quilt fairs/festivals. Look at the
admission forms. If a quilt is submitted for show there is a copyright
disclaimer. Also once the picture has been sold to a magazine or paper they
have purchased the right to show the photos to the public. I have several
attorney friends who have explained this very carefully to me. Copyright
protection is a financial term - you can't sell the photos unless they were
taken by you. Tina took the photos and they were hers to use as she
wished - she didn't STEAL anything because she received no monetary
renumeration. If the quilts were protected by law they would never have
allowed cameras into the showing. The presenter has already given
permission for the quilts to be viewed and photographed so many times before
Tina ever laid a camera lens on them. What you are doing is redundant and
totally unnecessary as required by law but if it makes you feel better then
go for it. Just don't sit in judgement when others don't do what you do.

--
http://community.webshots.com/user/snigdibbly
SNIGDIBBLY
~e~
"
/ \
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/snigdibbly.
http://www.ebaystores.com/snigdibbly...ox&refid=store
"Kathy Applebaum" wrote in message
om...
I've been rather bothered over the last few days by the posts indirectly
addressing copyright issues here. This is a subject that's been hashed
over many times before, and not a lot that's new is ever added to this
debate. Still, I feel I need to vent.

I've seen several posts advocating the position that it's okay to use
copyrighted images or patterns without permission because the designer
"should" share with everyone. What I don't get is why permission isn't
asked. It's really not that hard to write a simple email. I've asked for
permission numerous times, and only been turned down once. (That one time
was funny in retrospect, because the design was not particularly
original.) Most designers I've talked to are incredibly generous and very
flattered that someone would ask. That's the important part: asking.

If my neighbor wanted to use my lawn mower, I'd let her borrow it in a
heartbeat. But I'd be mighty ticked if I found she had gone into my garage
and used it without asking first, as would most of you. Our very own Dr.
Quilter is upset because someone went into her house without asking, and
rightly so. Many of you know that I'm always happy to spend time answering
questions about quilting and longarming. I'm glad to share what I've spent
many hours learning because I'm grateful that others were willing to share
with me. But I've also had aspiring longarmers call up, posing as
potential customers, and try to take my knowledge on the sly. Believe me,
that's a VERY unpleasant feeling, especially when I would have been
willing to help them out if they'd been honest.

Yes, there are times when it's not easy to ask for permission. But there's
a real human being on the other side of the equation, who has real
feelings, and could feel hurt if someone takes something without
permission just because it's inconvenient to ask. Doing the right thing
isn't always convenient, but it's still important.

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now. You can safely read the newsgroup again.
--
Kathy A. (Woodland, CA)
Queen of Fabric Tramps
http://www.kayneyquilting.com ,
remove the obvious to reply

In article ySo7f.5592$%42.3967@okepread06,
"SNIGDIBBLY" wrote:

There is no copyright protection at Quilt fairs/festivals. Look at the
admission forms. If a quilt is submitted for show there is a copyright
disclaimer.

Not exactly. I have entered two national shows and both times the right
to photograph my quilts, print pictures of entered quilts in
advertisements etc. was only given to the show organizers, not to anyone
who chose to take a picture.

Also once the picture has been sold to a magazine or paper they
have purchased the right to show the photos to the public.

The magazine has, yes. But generally only for a specified period of
time; unless you're talking Fons and Porter who buy everything forever
it seems.

Just because the show or magazine has rights is doesn't extend those
rights to others who purchase or borrow the magazine or book.

Cameras are allowed in shows for people to take pictures for their
personal use only. A show attendee is not authorized to take pictures
and then turn them into lovely photo greeting cards, puzzles, mugs,
posters or anything else to sell. An attendee may not put the photos on
public forums so that other people can print off pretty things with a
quiltmakers work on it.

Just because I bought a quilt magazine doesn't mean I can photocopy off
a quilt picture and sell it, or print off pattern instructions and teach
it as a class. There are fair use guidelines and both those overstep
the bounds.

I have several
attorney friends who have explained this very carefully to me. Copyright
protection is a financial term - you can't sell the photos unless they were
taken by you. Tina took the photos and they were hers to use as she
wished - she didn't STEAL anything because she received no monetary
renumeration.

A common misconception. You don't have to make money off something to
violate copyright.

You do, however have to follow the rules of the show and the rules for
Houston are clearly posted at the show and are on the website

http://www.quilts.com/fqf05/faqtravelsafe.pdf

Scroll down and they are clearly in the box on the right side of the
page titled "Photography Rules"

If the quilts were protected by law they would never have allowed
cameras into the showing.

Wrong. The shows rules clearly state "Photography at Festival is
neither a right or an entitlement - it is a privilege." The people who
run festival - and those who run many shows - allow photography for
personal use but if too many quilters disregard copyright, it wouldn't
surprise me to begin to see photography banned at shows.

There is a very nice question and answer section on copyright on Sylvia
Landman's website. You might want to read it.

http://sylvias-studio.com/copyright_...s_crafters.htm

marcella