Neon Signmaking Books

Hi everyone:

Does anyone know of any good books on neon sign making. I'm a complete
novice but would like to either learn this craft or determine it's beyond my
capabilities.

Thanks in advance for the help,

Brian

Unless you are rich or have a connection with a neon shop, it is unlikely
you can afford to get in to it. The problem isn't the materials or the
workspace, both of which can be modest. It isn't even the glassworking
tools - torches, etc. - which take a few hundred dollars.
The problem is that the vacuum equipment, gas handling equipment, and
electrical transformers, including the special stuff that cooks out the
tubing during setup, have an initial cost of several thousand dollars. The
only way to bypass this is to take your almost finished glasswork to a shop
that will draw it down and charge it for a fee.
Follow this link http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/biblio.htm#Neon to my
site for data on a book Or go to their site http://www.neonengineers.com/
2003-11-27


The Neon Engineers Notebook
Here is a practical guide to optimizing your work place.
This book presents ideas and methods to tweak your machinery
as well as yourself to produce your best work.

The chapters pertaining to glasswork illustrate techniques for success
to improve the bending skills of novices and seasoned professionals
alike.

First Edition / First Printing 2003 ISBN 0-9716530-1-1
9" x 7" $37.95 Available from Lightwriters Neon Bookstore



--
Mike Firth
Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/hotbit46.htm Latest notes

"BC Brian" wrote in message
news:h_kGd.87654$8l.50695@pd7tw1no...
Hi everyone:

Does anyone know of any good books on neon sign making. I'm a complete
novice but would like to either learn this craft or determine it's beyond
my capabilities.

Thanks in advance for the help,

Brian

Mike Firth wrote:
Unless you are rich or have a connection with a neon shop, it is
unlikely you can afford to get in to it. The problem isn't the
materials or the workspace, both of which can be modest. It isn't
even the glassworking tools - torches, etc. - which take a few
hundred dollars. The problem is that the vacuum equipment, gas
handling equipment, and electrical transformers, including the
special stuff that cooks out the tubing during setup, have an
initial cost of several thousand dollars. The only way to bypass
this is to take your almost finished glasswork to a shop that will
draw it down and charge it for a fee. Follow this link
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/biblio.htm#Neon to my site for
data on a book Or go to their site http://www.neonengineers.com/
2003-11-27


The Neon Engineers Notebook: Here is a practical guide to optimizing
your work place. This book presents ideas and methods to tweak your
machinery as well as yourself to produce your best work.

The chapters pertaining to glasswork illustrate techniques for
success to improve the bending skills of novices and seasoned
professionals alike.

First Edition / First Printing 2003 ISBN 0-9716530-1-1 9" x 7"
$37.95 Available from Lightwriters Neon Bookstore




I've heard of hobbyist gas lasers (CO2) being operated with a
continuous feed of gas on one end and a vacuum pump on the other. As
long as the pressure is regulated at 20 torr, then it apparently
works. (I have not seen this firsthand but it sounds feasible.) If
this is true then surely a neon equivalency is possible by putting two
electrodes at the end of a glass tube, feeding neon in one fitting and
pumping down from the other. Sealing the tube in this condition sounds
very difficult however. You might be able to find a good used vacuum
pump on eBay: http://search.ebay.com/vacuum-pump -- 478 hits.



-- "To deny our impulses... foolish; to revel in them, chaos." MCJ 200308

I know enough that the process of bombarding (a word that eluded me in my
previous reply) involves sucking down a phenominal vacuum and then cooking
the inside with a special bombarding transformer that can put a couple of
amps (or more?) into the plasma so the molecules of gas that will cause
problems later are cooked out. Then, a tiny amount of the illuminating gas
is added to the vacuum to get the result desired. Sealing is simply a
matter of applying a torch to the neck and watching the vacuum suck the
glass down tight. The transformers used for lighting, while not cheap, are
much less costly than the bombarding transformer.

--
Mike Firth
Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/hotbit46.htm Latest notes

"Mark Jones" wrote in message
...
Mike Firth wrote:
Unless you are rich or have a connection with a neon shop, it is
unlikely you can afford to get in to it. The problem isn't the
materials or the workspace, both of which can be modest. It isn't
even the glassworking tools - torches, etc. - which take a few
hundred dollars. The problem is that the vacuum equipment, gas
handling equipment, and electrical transformers, including the
special stuff that cooks out the tubing during setup, have an
initial cost of several thousand dollars. The only way to bypass
this is to take your almost finished glasswork to a shop that will
draw it down and charge it for a fee. Follow this link
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/biblio.htm#Neon to my site for
data on a book Or go to their site http://www.neonengineers.com/
2003-11-27


The Neon Engineers Notebook: Here is a practical guide to optimizing
your work place. This book presents ideas and methods to tweak your
machinery as well as yourself to produce your best work.

The chapters pertaining to glasswork illustrate techniques for
success to improve the bending skills of novices and seasoned
professionals alike.

First Edition / First Printing 2003 ISBN 0-9716530-1-1 9" x 7"
$37.95 Available from Lightwriters Neon Bookstore




I've heard of hobbyist gas lasers (CO2) being operated with a
continuous feed of gas on one end and a vacuum pump on the other. As
long as the pressure is regulated at 20 torr, then it apparently
works. (I have not seen this firsthand but it sounds feasible.) If
this is true then surely a neon equivalency is possible by putting two
electrodes at the end of a glass tube, feeding neon in one fitting and
pumping down from the other. Sealing the tube in this condition sounds
very difficult however. You might be able to find a good used vacuum
pump on eBay: http://search.ebay.com/vacuum-pump -- 478 hits.



-- "To deny our impulses... foolish; to revel in them, chaos." MCJ 200308

Mike Firth wrote:
I know enough that the process of bombarding (a word that eluded me in my
previous reply) involves sucking down a phenominal vacuum and then cooking
the inside with a special bombarding transformer that can put a couple of
amps (or more?) into the plasma so the molecules of gas that will cause
problems later are cooked out. Then, a tiny amount of the illuminating gas
is added to the vacuum to get the result desired. Sealing is simply a
matter of applying a torch to the neck and watching the vacuum suck the
glass down tight. The transformers used for lighting, while not cheap, are
much less costly than the bombarding transformer.



Hmm, say if 7000v is required to initiate the plasma channel in a
length of neon tubing, then 1 ampere of current at 7000v = 7000 watts
of power - things are going to get very very hot, very quickly!

Hmm... I have no idea if this would work, but get a plasma channel
going with a regular neon sign transformer, then switch on a microwave
oven transformer (or MOT at they are known, again eBay is your
friend.) A MOT puts out about 3500 volts at an half amp or so, things
will still get pretty hot.

Neons do have markedly large terminating electrodes where the power
is connected. They must be large in order to conduct heat - if they
are too small, they will get red hot and fail. It seems like the best
bet would be to buy these premade - they have some pretty special
features that a do-it-yourselfer cannot accomidate.

Neon Sign Transformers (NST's) can be found all over eBay. Lots of
people (nerds?) use these and MOTs to make Tesla Coils. For any
newcomer to high voltage electricity, please read up on how dangerous
this stuff is before endeavoring in a very hazardous hobby.

I just found this cool link all about neon signs:
http://www.signweb.com/neon/cont/luminoustubes.html

Right in the beginning it says: "A practical person can learn how to
bend the glass, attach the electrodes, pump out the air, fill the tube
with neon or some other gas, seal it, mount it, connect it to the
power source, and install the completed tube. All these things can be
done without knowing how or why the tube works."

It goes on to explain a lot in detail, including the bombarding
process. It's a good read.

-- "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward; for there you have been, and there you long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

Yes, it gets very hot.

--
Mike Firth
Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/hotbit46.htm Latest notes

"Mark Jones" wrote in message
...
Mike Firth wrote:
I know enough that the process of bombarding (a word that eluded me in
my
previous reply) involves sucking down a phenominal vacuum and then
cooking
the inside with a special bombarding transformer that can put a couple of
amps (or more?) into the plasma so the molecules of gas that will cause
problems later are cooked out. Then, a tiny amount of the illuminating
gas
is added to the vacuum to get the result desired. Sealing is simply a
matter of applying a torch to the neck and watching the vacuum suck the
glass down tight. The transformers used for lighting, while not cheap,
are
much less costly than the bombarding transformer.



Hmm, say if 7000v is required to initiate the plasma channel in a
length of neon tubing, then 1 ampere of current at 7000v = 7000 watts
of power - things are going to get very very hot, very quickly!

Hmm... I have no idea if this would work, but get a plasma channel
going with a regular neon sign transformer, then switch on a microwave
oven transformer (or MOT at they are known, again eBay is your
friend.) A MOT puts out about 3500 volts at an half amp or so, things
will still get pretty hot.

Neons do have markedly large terminating electrodes where the power
is connected. They must be large in order to conduct heat - if they
are too small, they will get red hot and fail. It seems like the best
bet would be to buy these premade - they have some pretty special
features that a do-it-yourselfer cannot accomidate.

Neon Sign Transformers (NST's) can be found all over eBay. Lots of
people (nerds?) use these and MOTs to make Tesla Coils. For any
newcomer to high voltage electricity, please read up on how dangerous
this stuff is before endeavoring in a very hazardous hobby.

I just found this cool link all about neon signs:
http://www.signweb.com/neon/cont/luminoustubes.html

Right in the beginning it says: "A practical person can learn how to
bend the glass, attach the electrodes, pump out the air, fill the tube
with neon or some other gas, seal it, mount it, connect it to the
power source, and install the completed tube. All these things can be
done without knowing how or why the tube works."

It goes on to explain a lot in detail, including the bombarding
process. It's a good read.

-- "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned
skyward; for there you have been, and there you long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

Mark Jones wrote:
Hmm, say if 7000v is required to initiate the plasma channel in a
length of neon tubing, then 1 ampere of current at 7000v = 7000 watts
of power - things are going to get very very hot, very quickly!


Bombarding transformers are huge. Pole transformers, pole pigs(?), are
often used. You can find them on eBay from time to time too. It's been
ages since I've done any neon, but I do seem to recall the electrodes
getting red.

Actually, a "phenomenal" vacuum would be undesireable; you need some gas in the
tube to initiate the discharge. Current will vary depending on the length (and
probably the cross-section) of the tube. Also, you aren't cooking out the gas
molecules - you are liberating impurities from the walls of the tubing (perhaps
just a matter of semantics). For a 4 foot piece of 12 mm, I use much less than
..25 amp @ (about) 15kV. 0.5 amps would be a huge amount of current, and parts of
the tube would probably soften enough to get sucked inward before the entire
length has been cooked. I understand that those pesky Europeans forego the
excitement of the bombardment by baking the tubing in an oven while maintaining
a good vacuum. That's likely a more effective technique, altough it requires a
potentially huge oven (depending on the size of the piece), but mostly it
eliminates the "WOW" factor that is so attractive to us HV junkies.

I recommend checking out the LightWriters web site. I learned the basics of neon
from Jacob Fishman.

Joe


Mike Firth wrote:

I know enough that the process of bombarding (a word that eluded me in my
previous reply) involves sucking down a phenominal vacuum and then cooking
the inside with a special bombarding transformer that can put a couple of
amps (or more?) into the plasma so the molecules of gas that will cause
problems later are cooked out. Then, a tiny amount of the illuminating gas
is added to the vacuum to get the result desired. Sealing is simply a
matter of applying a torch to the neck and watching the vacuum suck the
glass down tight. The transformers used for lighting, while not cheap, are
much less costly than the bombarding transformer.

--
Mike Firth
Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/hotbit46.htm Latest notes

"Mark Jones" wrote in message
...
Mike Firth wrote:
Unless you are rich or have a connection with a neon shop, it is
unlikely you can afford to get in to it. The problem isn't the
materials or the workspace, both of which can be modest. It isn't
even the glassworking tools - torches, etc. - which take a few
hundred dollars. The problem is that the vacuum equipment, gas
handling equipment, and electrical transformers, including the
special stuff that cooks out the tubing during setup, have an
initial cost of several thousand dollars. The only way to bypass
this is to take your almost finished glasswork to a shop that will
draw it down and charge it for a fee. Follow this link
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/biblio.htm#Neon to my site for
data on a book Or go to their site http://www.neonengineers.com/
2003-11-27


The Neon Engineers Notebook: Here is a practical guide to optimizing
your work place. This book presents ideas and methods to tweak your
machinery as well as yourself to produce your best work.

The chapters pertaining to glasswork illustrate techniques for
success to improve the bending skills of novices and seasoned
professionals alike.

First Edition / First Printing 2003 ISBN 0-9716530-1-1 9" x 7"
$37.95 Available from Lightwriters Neon Bookstore




I've heard of hobbyist gas lasers (CO2) being operated with a
continuous feed of gas on one end and a vacuum pump on the other. As
long as the pressure is regulated at 20 torr, then it apparently
works. (I have not seen this firsthand but it sounds feasible.) If
this is true then surely a neon equivalency is possible by putting two
electrodes at the end of a glass tube, feeding neon in one fitting and
pumping down from the other. Sealing the tube in this condition sounds
very difficult however. You might be able to find a good used vacuum
pump on eBay: http://search.ebay.com/vacuum-pump -- 478 hits.



-- "To deny our impulses... foolish; to revel in them, chaos." MCJ 200308

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:29:51 -0500, Mark Jones
wrote:

Mike Firth wrote:
I know enough that the process of bombarding (a word that eluded me in my
previous reply) involves sucking down a phenominal vacuum and then cooking
the inside with a special bombarding transformer that can put a couple of
amps (or more?) into the plasma so the molecules of gas that will cause
problems later are cooked out. Then, a tiny amount of the illuminating gas
is added to the vacuum to get the result desired. Sealing is simply a
matter of applying a torch to the neck and watching the vacuum suck the
glass down tight. The transformers used for lighting, while not cheap, are
much less costly than the bombarding transformer.



Bombarders are typically 12 to 15kva. The processing current is at
first typically 250 to 300 ma. The voltage across the tube will be
whatever it requires - on average 10kv + or - a few thousand volts.
Most of the processing happens in the 2 to 4 torr range. The heat
releases impurities from the glass wall. Near the end of the process
at around 250'C the pressure is lowered some more and the current is
raised. This electro-chemically 'converts' the electrodes so that the
cathode fall is reduced. The tube is then pulled down to about 1 to 2
microns and cooled somewhat before backfilling to approximately 10 or
more torr.


Kenny Greenberg
www.neonshop.com

Not to argue with you Mike but "several thousand dollars" isn't a lot
of money these days. Heck, my glass orders usually several thousand
dollars and I have a medium sized stained glass store. Besides, the
original poster might be loaded. LOL you never know how much money
someone has.

Andy