Help with old english knitting directions

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:16:41 GMT, (Els van Dam)
spewed forth :

Speaking of Tube Sardines, I wonder how that bloke's foot is who tried
to feel me up in the District Line ... I mashed his instep fair and
square and didn't he yelp, too!


Wooly you make me smile......good for you, stamping on his foot. He got
of easy, I would have kneed him in the groin, and yelled at him at the
same time, the nerve of him

Heh, he was behind me so I did what I could. Had I been facing him
he'd have gotten a knee in the crotch and I would have tried to get
his ACL too.

+++++++++++++

Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.
Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...

In article ,
Els van Dam wrote:
wrote:

As I work with LONG fine steel needles, I come to understand why knitting
in public was discouraged. Long ago, much knitting was done on long steel
knitting needles. I would not want to sit next to someone that was
knitting fast and furiously with long steel needles. It would be like
sitting next to someone that had a pair of mating porcupines on their lap.
Now, I suspect the blokes that made comments about my knitting on the train
in GB had sat next to their grandmothers as children; and had been poked by
the DPN as their grandmothers knit jumpers.
snip

Why "grandmothers" specifically? Their mothers may have knitted.

Aaron,

There may be a generation gap, but when I grew up, everyone knitted in the
train or tram, or bus. When you see the Agatha Christie movies, no matter
who has the lead role, all the Miss Marples knitted where ever they went.
It was very common, in Europe that knitting was done in public. I am
talking about 1920- 1930- 1940 etc. There may have been a period that
there was not that much knitting going on 1980, however I still think
that there was a solid core of knitters at all times.

The local yarn shop here in Maryland didn't go out of business until
around 1996; up to then there was a solid core of knitters here.

snip
When knitting was done with (unwashed ??? homespun yarn, as you relate)
I would think that public travel was not as common, and that we are talking
a much earlier timespan, when yarns were not mass produced. Wool mills
may have been dirty places, but I am sure that the fibers where always
washed before they were processed, it would have just been too costly, to
have to repair the machinery, that would get clogged up with animal oils,
dirt and vegetable materials, to not wash the fibers first. At the same
time, I would think that those yarns were destined for more mass
production of clothing and bedding etc. I do not think that you could buy
factory produced yarns in retail stores.

Actually, yarn was produced by spinners for retail sale since at least
the middle ages. Professional knitters did not spin their own yarn, nor
did the weavers or dyers. Anyone who wanted to knit could buy yarn.
As I understand it, part of the process of making yarn is to set the twist
by washing it. Even wools spun "in the oil" were washed first, and then
a measured amount of oil was added back in, to make a consistent product.

People knitted in public all the time; at one time there were ordinances
passed to prevent children who were in knitting school from wandering the
streets while they knitted, for fear that they would get into mischief,
but nobody tried to stop adults from knitting anywhere they wanted to.

There are photographs of groups of women in Cornwall gathering at their
regular knitting places on the cliffside paths to watch for the return
of the ships.

People simply knew how to arrange themselves so that nobody would be
hit by the free end of a needle, the same as people arrange themselves
at dinner tables so as to avoid accidental elbow-jabs. There are also
many different ways to hold needles and yarn, some of which may give
more control than others.

=Tamar

In article ,
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote:
No birthday Dear Cher only Holiday greetings ,,, and wht are you
breathless ??????

Paragraph spacing can help make your posts easier to read.
When the sentences are all in one long paragraph, there are
no rest stops. Also, in English we don't repeat commas, and
the repeated full stops/periods [.......] mean that the next
part is still part of the same sentence, so your sentences all
seem to run together.

Gosh Mirjam, I am quite out of breath reading all this....lol
well done you

hugz
cher and birthday greetings from me too, didn't know I'd missed it..

I have added paragraph spaces only to your post below. In some
places there were extra letter spaces; I wonder whether something
odd in the posting system has actually removed line breaks that
you had put in.

"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...

C H E R !!!!! hahahahh as Usual you are hilarious ....

Yesterday as the Inciator of the Seminar called to wish me Happy
holiday ,,, The seminar is called"Pain of Flash and Blood ", An
Interdisciplinary conferece about the representation of the ill,
the suffering and the delighting body" .

I want to go at least 1 day, There will be pschologists, poets,
artists [5 exhibtions by artists who are dealing with their ailments
or in general about suffer ++] Linguists , writers , a film about a
Girl who has to live in some sort of contraption, philoshers etc...

I want to go , am pushed for my time, [ anyway have to travel by
train 2 hours to and and back] , and know from experience that
sitting like this a whole day, with my hands not doing much,
isn`t me. I can listen and make some of the Long stichings i do
[on the big work] Or knit [ my son wants a second Moebious] .

But In israeli Seminars etc,,,,It isn`t done ,,,,

After years of women in the Kiboets General Assemblies knitting ...
suddenly it became a no no ...

I realy want to do it ,,,, And as i presented it to the Inciator
yesterday , for me it is one of the Pleasures of the Flesh ,,,,
[ he said he doesn`t mind me doing it, in fact he said he could
be a Living Show . I Said , you know people will look at me ,
He said he doesn`t mind, and said why don`t i suggest it to some
other colleagues who are coming., in fact i had a feeling he likes
me to do it ..

So now i will think and prepare a work i can do without much fuss
[ just long technical No counting work .] i will prepare to have
one of mine ready , i can take it and always Not do it if
circumstances aren`t suitable.

Of course there will always be somebdy saying I am doing it for
attention , but i am really short for time and it helps me to
concentrate on the lectures , whose subjects are`t easy , and
when pics are shown i can stop ...

mirjam

=Tamar

Actually, I have only heard 3 comments in the form of "Expletive, Theres
someone knitting!" , that I took to be derogatory. All three times it was
made by older guys in football colors drinking beer on the train along the
Yorkshire coast. Twice at me, and once at a woman knittng at the other end
of the railcar. I have never heard such comments in North America. Not
even in Las Vegas.

I have developed a love-hate relationship with my long DPN. On the one
hand, they let me knit fast and tight with minimum wrist strain. On the
other hand, they are dangerous. I mean, I am a careful worker but I have
gotten my blood on my WIP.

I speculate that any family that successfully raises kids while the women of
the family are knitting on long DPN must firmly ingrain rules about the
dangers of knitting. Since knitting on 5 long needles is a tradition of
the fishing
fleets near where I heard the "Expletive, Theres someone knitting!", it
was not hard to imagine that long ago, every young boy was wedged against
his grandmother as she knit, and the boys were poked by the knitting needles
and remained resentful of people knitting in his presence. I would not be
surprised if grandpa told his grandson about the dangers of knitting needles
and the resentment against knitting has lasted for generations. Of course
this is pure speculation, but I certainly would not want to sit next to me
as I flail my long needles. I use safer knitting needles in public.
Sometimes technology changes faster than local custom.

I love the news clips of Eleanor Roosevelt knitting. To a certain extent, I
feel that Mrs., Marple's knitting was to represent the unique industry and
tenacity of her particular character. I do not remember that most of the
other female roles in those movies also knit. AC is not like Jane Austin,
or Tolstoy where every woman had her needle work. And, there are
knitting needles by Faberge made in the late 19th century and set with
(huge) precious jewels from that were certainly meant to be shown off at fan
cy dress balls. Knitting in art has many purposes.

There was a time when I took my knitting to parties, and BBQs, pubs, and
other places where people were eating and drinking. Then I bought a bunch of
Reynolds's Lopi. It knitted fine, and made great ski hats and ski socks. I
did not realize how dirty the yarn was until I washed those socks for
blocking. The nasty stuff in the bottom of the wash tub was an eye opener.
So, even today, there is the possibility of dirty yarn.

Now, I wash my hands after working with yarn. And, I wash my knitting before
I wear it. Period! When I travel, I carry alcohol wipes that I use after
knitting and before eating or drinking. And, I certainly do not knit around
food or drink.

Now! What mother among you is going to tell me not to wash my hands after
working with wool? It may not help, but it can not hurt!

Aaron
"Els van Dam" wrote in message
...
Aaron,

There may be a generation gap, but when I grew up, everyone knitted in the
train or tram, or bus. When you see the Agatha Christie movies, no matter
who has the lead role, all the Miss Marples knitted where ever they went.
It was very common, in Europe that knitting was done in public. I am
talking about 1920- 1930- 1940 etc. There may have been a period that
there was not that much knitting going on 1980, however I still think that
there was a solid core of knitters at all times. I moved to Toronto in
1957, at 21 years old. The subways were build during that time and when I
traveled, on the subway, streetcar, and bus, I would see the same European
woman knit or crochet, having the ball of yarn sitting in a bag on their
laps.

When knitting was done with (unwashed ??? homespun yarn, as you relate) I
would think that public travel was not as common, and that we are talking
a much earlier timespan, when yarns where not mass produced. Wool mills
may have been dirty places, but I am sure that the fibers where always
washed before they were processed, it would have just been to costly, to
have to repair the machinery, that would get clogged up with animal oils,
dirt and vegetable materials, to not wash the fibers first. At the same
time, i would think that those yarns were destined for more mass
production of clothing and bedding etc. I do not think that you could buy
factory produced yarns in retail stores.

In general it was and is accepted to knit or embroider, or crochet in
public. Maybe a rude or ill mannered person would and will make a
comment, but in the broader sense, I have never heard a comment or public
outing of negativeness about knitting in public. It may have been a class
thing at one time who did and who did not knit in public, but even that, I
think was not a big issue. I think you encountered some rude people who
not necessarily represent all of England. I think that there is a video
of Kaffe Fasset, sitting knitting in a train in England. He did get some
commence, but more on "what are you doing" and " what are you making", and
that ended up in impromptu knitting lesson on the spot.

Els



In article ,
wrote:

As I work with LONG fine steel needles, I come to understand why
knitting in
public was discouraged. Long ago, much knitting was done on long steel
knitting needles. I would not want to sit next to someone that was
knitting fast and furiously with long steel needles. It would be like
sitting next to someone that had a pair of mating porcupines on their
lap.
Now, I suspect the blokes that made comments about my knitting on the
train
in GB had sat next to their grandmothers as children; and had been poked
by
the DPN as their grandmothers knit jumpers. Those blokes probably had
good
reason to think there was something rude about knitting in public. On
the
other hand, Californians do not make comments about my knitting, because
as
children, they never had to sit next to flailing DPN.

Moreover, in the old days, yarn may not have been so clean. Sheep farms
and
wool mills were not traditionally clean places, and who knew where the
yarn
had been. Working with yarn of unknown cleanliness in a pub around food
and
drink, or leaving lint in public spaces would have not make knitters too
popular.

But, now we have circular needles and single point flexible needles, so
public safety is not so much an issue. Now, we have cleaner yarns. So I
no
longer see valid reasons for not knitting in public. But, I do
understand
the cultural bias against knitting in public. There was a time when it
had a
practical basis.

Aaron
"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
Well Aaron , A "Woman knitting Over there !!! is usually not so kindly
meant , now adays , i think that is one thing That the Feministic
movement failed, It used to be the Acepted thing to knit, or handcraft
[ Idel habds etc,,,,] Than Suddenly it became unacceted or a something
only "primitive women did !!! Educated women Didn`t !!!!" .I am
getting so many people reacting to my knitting on trains , busses ,
Waiting rooms , etc,,,,, that i know it is an odity ,,,, Almost like
Breast feeding in public, Used to be done only by "Primitive women"
than became Done by all who felt like doing it. Nobody now in Westen
world would say a woman breast feeding is Primitive ..... So i really
feel it is time Public knitting or crafting should be accepted again.
The last woman who commented to me about this being "primitive" , got
an answer that my clothes Primitively better looking than her`s ,,,, i
am loosing ,my patience for all the strange remarks of people ,,,, who
don`t mind other writing on their laptops, or listening to music , or
phoning with half the world talking about Personal stuff in public ...
If this is tolerated , why isn`t my handcrafting tolerated .....
As to fellows saying something about Knitting Men ? well it is still
an odity ,,, Do it more and spread the Stiches
mirjam

I have heard blokes say, ''blimey, there's a woman knitting over
there!''
However, usually the tone when they say that is not as bad as when
they
say
''BLIMEY, there's a MAN knitting over there!!!'', which is what I
hear
more
often : )

Aaron
"spinninglilac" wrote in message
.uk...
Hi Mirjam,

I took some sock knitting to the pub a couple of times, if I can
get
the
seat near the door, where it isn't so smokey, and once I heard a
guy
say
to
his friend at the bar, ''blimey, theres a woman knitting over
there!''
so
I
went to him and said, ''you're knowledge astounds me, that you know
what I
am doing, a pity you seem to lack tact, however, no matter, would
you
like
to come and learn!'' he looked at me as if I'd gone mad, and Don
the
landlord, grinned,and said, ''she does many a weird and wonderful
thing
in
a pub, wait til next week, come and see what she's doing then!''
Meaning
I
was booked to entertain there and this guy obviously had never seen
me
perform, but he turned up, and of course I ''got'' at him all
night,
now
we
are very good friends. He isn't very old, but I feel he's been
educated,
in
tact if nothing else..

hugz cher
"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
Cher and Katherine ,
I ALWAYS take some work with me , whenm i travel anywhere and esp
when
i travel to Belgium ,,, My Aquaintances who wonder , where i have
the
time to have knitted or embroidered `ALL THIS THINGS` , are
surprised
to hear i do it on those `moments in between`,,, in the airport
in
the
bus , in the morning at my father`s house Before he gets up , on
his
pace, or in the evenings when he goes earlier to bed... Never
mind
how
much i make ,,,,, "A stich + A Stich = A row + Row and before you
know
it , i have an other nice item.....I also go to some conventions,
and
i really hate this long Listening to lectures that sometimes, as
interesting as they are , make me sleepy or edgy ,,, my hand
could
knit or embroider but people Look at me with THIS LOOK , same
people
don`t hesitate to Talk in Half Loud voices which are far more
disruptive to other than my quiet knitting ... I am really
seriously
considering starting to knit/embroider again in public ,,,,,
mirjam

They'll laugh the other side of their faces when you produce the
wonderful
items that you do...

hugz cher have a great time...

THank you Wooly for adding this insight.
mirjam

I think there's got to be some generational gappage going on
somewhere. When I was growing up women my mother's age (post-WW2
children) didn't knit/crochet/sew yadda yadda because it was
inconvenient. They were working women and could purchase made things.
I learned crochet, knitting, embroidery, tatting and rudimentary
sewing from my granny, who was born in 1919 and remembers quite well
the prospect of going naked or making it oneself.

I have several books containing photos of "generic British women"
going about their daily business with knitting in hand - usually on
foot or perhaps riding on the back of a cart bound for market.
They're using long needles, sure, but they're not stacked like
sardines in the Tube doing it, either.

Speaking of Tube Sardines, I wonder how that bloke's foot is who tried
to feel me up in the District Line ... I mashed his instep fair and
square and didn't he yelp, too!

+++++++++++++

Reply to the list as I do not publish an email address to USENET.
This practice has cut my spam by more than 95%.
Of course, I did have to abandon a perfectly good email account...

Elsje this is lovely to hear, and as you say ,, over the years i also
had many people who were facinated by my knitting or crocheting,
enough to say they wanted to try it themselves ,,,,
The neateset ever reaction , was the soldier who fell asleep and woke
saw me knitting, smiled and said :"it makes me feel at home , next to
my mother "
But from time to time there are other reactions. My pondering now is
whether to do it in a hall full of people listening to some serious
lectures. I really don`t want to attract any attention, nore cause
anyone to be distracted. Still i am so late in my work schedule....
Maybe i will Just Knit the 4 hours on the train ?
mirjam

In article ,
(Mirjam Bruck-Cohen) wrote:

Aaron i never had long steel needles , nore had my mother or
grandmother, Nore for that matter can i recall long steel needles.
in the 50s , 60s 70s , it was common to see women [ in winter[ knit
every where ,,, than it became somehing Not done , it is a combination
of The Feministic rise + commercial stuff + more women working outside
.. mnay in tiresome typing pools or factories ,,,, I don`t think that
anybody of the age group you speak about would have such a
recollection as you try to give here ....
mirjam


Mirjam, I have a pair of very fine long steel needles, but they are from
the late 1800. My mother had lots of wooden needles. The DP sock needles
she and my mother in law used where short and indeed from steel. Later on
they were all from some sort of plastic. My mother and Otto's mother
never used circular needles. Otto's mother died in 1991 and My mother in
1988. I did not start to use circular needles until the early 1990. True
they are mush easier to use, but still the regular needles work well any
time. However I have never had anyone complain to me, about using any
kind of knitting needles in public. Any time I have been doing any kind
of textile techniques in public, I have been asked questions and have been
shown interest in what I was, and still today, am doing. Lucky me, I have
never met up with rude people while demonstrating or just braiding or
knitting in public. I think it is just the opposite for me, each and every
time it has been an opportunity to share and get to know folks. For
instance, on our way home from Toronto, we had a couple of hours stop over
in Calgary. When I took out my braiding a woman came over and sat next to
me, wanting to know what I was doing. We started to talk, and while I
showed her the simple steps of a Kongo Gumi Braid, she told me that she
was going to visit her daughter who just had a new baby. Turned out she
also lived on Vancouver Island and knew many of the Guild members in
Nanaimo, who I also knew as weaving and spinning friends. I gave her my
start of the kumihimo braid and told her to come and see me if she had
problems. Just two days ago she E-mailed me about her new grand child and
her progress with the braiding. Big smile, right......LOL

Els

The Only dangerous thing i find about knitting with DPS in public , is
Loosing them. Have knitted on circulars for so many years that i can`t
remember when i didn`t. Since i knit in one piece, the part where i
use Dps [ middle to cuff of sleeves] is already too big to be worked
on in a bus , or such place. Even if some of those remarks that i hear
aren`t kind i would never think they are deragotory...I see it more as
signs of Changing Socail Behaviours.
mirjam

I have a stash of needles that includes my mother's needles. In all of
this there is one longish steel double point. I don't know if it was
originally hers or whether she got it from someone. (for time
reference - mother was born in 1902) I actually use it quite often as
I find it useful when I am doing cables - I know that sounds silly but
I am used to using it and it works for me. It is longer than my
regular double points but not extremely long - probably around 10
inches or so. I don't remember seeing mother use it and I don't know
if she ever had a set of dps that length.

The only wooden or bamboo needles I have are those I have acquired or
made - mostly within the last 15 to 20 years. There are some older
casein (sp?) needles etc in the older stuff. I don't think mother
saved much in the way of prewar needles - she did have some nice older
thimbles in her sewing stuff though. (Those got distributed to various
female family members when her stuff was sorted when she moved to the
nursing facility.) DH doesn't remember about his mother - too bad as
she was more of a knitter than mine was. (Mine was too busy playing
sports - golfed well into her 80's)

I had to use the instep smash manuver in the Paris Metro once. It
seems to be effective. I think the recipient was truly surprised that
he wasn't allowed to get away with his unacceptable behavior.
(In those days I wore heels too - which may have helped.)

snip snip
There was a time when I took my knitting to parties, and BBQs, pubs, and
other places where people were eating and drinking. Then I bought a bunch of
Reynolds's Lopi. It knitted fine, and made great ski hats and ski socks. I
did not realize how dirty the yarn was until I washed those socks for
blocking. The nasty stuff in the bottom of the wash tub was an eye opener.
So, even today, there is the possibility of dirty yarn.

Now, I wash my hands after working with yarn. And, I wash my knitting before
I wear it. Period! When I travel, I carry alcohol wipes that I use after
knitting and before eating or drinking. And, I certainly do not knit around
food or drink.

Now! What mother among you is going to tell me not to wash my hands after
working with wool? It may not help, but it can not hurt!

Aaron

snip snip

Aaron nothing wrong with washing your hands anytime, LOL. I am sure that
each and every knitter will wash and block there knitting. Just like I
will always wash my spinning and also wash and press my weaving. That is
done as the finishing process, always. I am also sure that yarns are not
clean when you buy them. They have been everywhere so I will not dispute
that. I was just saying that the original dirt and oil from an unwashed
fleece is no longer there when you start to knit with it. It may have
industrial oil from the factory, to aid in the spinning, or from the
machinery, as well as any dirt that is picked up during the moving from A
to B and finally to Z which is the knitter. But I am splitting hairs
here.

Happy Easter Aaron and keep on fibernating

Els