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#301
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Oh, and for heaven's sakes... $15,000 a YEAR? Do you know what the
poverty level is? It sounds like you didn't like that coworker and have based all your assumptions about people receiving aid on her. -Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay |
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#302
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Ew. For one thing, I'm not exactly a liberal. I'd be a Libertarian if it
weren't for the fact that most Libertarians are insufferable boors. You are obviously highly predjudiced. You've seen a few examples of poor people who aren't making any efforts to improve their lives, and you assume that all poor people are like that... yet you yourself are allegedly poor (though if you're paying all those taxes, you must be doing OK). You also don't seem to understand that the "slobbering kids" whose outcomes you don't care to receive will be the ones wiping your incontinent ass in a state-subsidized institution when you're old, since you have no kids to take care of you and you're clearly not making any attempt to secure your own future. That's why a society takes care of its own; those kids become adults, and they can either be an asset or a liability. Smart people try to think of ways to make them an asset, stupid people think "it's not my problem, why should I care?" It's EVERYONE'S problem. I'm a capitalist through and through, not a socialist, BTW. -Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay mjoann wrote: Kalera Stratton wrote: No, just a very young, very self-absorbed woman. She'll probably grow out of it. Sorry to be ageist, but I'm being optimistic, here; if it's not youth and ignorance, there's no hope at all. And that is exactly how I feel about raving, loony liberals who think everyone else needs to pay for their piles of slobbering kids. I think "good grief, when are they going to get over crazy visions of Utopia and face the world for what it is?" Its not about my age at all; Sooz was actually right in labeling me like an old lady, I say it all the time. I have old-fashioned values. And by golly, likes our crazy pioneer forefathers, I expect to go out and work for the things I want. Its about being willing to go out and work for a living rather than whining for someone to do it for you. It is not impossible; people come here from other countries every day to work. No its not pretty, but that's what you have to do if you want to survive. There isn't a need to coddle everyone. I've seen people laze around at home on welfare. I watched my mom's cousin laze around for 20 years while she raised her kids and mooched a free education. I've got two relatives who sat at home in poverty waiting for someone to award them with disability checks. Two men with "bad backs" who oddly enough managed to engage in all kinds of outdoors activities even though they "couldn't" work. Its not about ignorance either. I worked in a store across from section 8 housing for a year. Every day, women would bring in their multiple children and use their foodstamp cards to buy junk food. One regular would talk to us about her life... She got aid through her low income, but her boyfriend secretly lived with them and helped with the bills. When you see the people from the welfare housing come in daily, driving newer cars, wearing nice clothes and buying Mountain Dew, its not hard to tell that what's going on. Anyone who has ever worked in a grocery store can tell you that most of the time those precious food stamps are buying pop and snacks. I worked in a grocery store all through high school, and shook my head countless times as I rang up piles of junk food and scanned the foodstamp card then accepted the cash for the beer and cigarettes that weren't covered. If these people can squander their aid on crap, then buy cigarettes, they aren't too desperate are they? I've seen how things work. My parents work for a living, and I know from experience it is possible. And yes, I will say it... there are plenty of jobs available, ways to support oneself. I don't even want to hear the BS about low minimum wages. High school kids at the local grocery store make $7.00 an hour. My little sister made over $7.00 in fast-food at her first job. I went half way across the country to visit family a week ago, and pretty much every establishment I went into had a hiring sign up. Stores like Meijer and Wal-Mart are constantly hiring. Meijer has union wages; eight years ago, I started at $6.00 and I'm sure its more now. Better stores, like Home Depot start people at least at $10.00 an hour. It all comes down to if you want to get off your butt and do it. If you want to throw in the excuse of not being able to afford day care, there are ways around that. My grandma took in washing. Women today have more home opportunities. I have found many ways to earn spare change. Selling on e-Bay for commission, garage sale finds turned into e-Bay profit, selling jewelry, selling stuff around my house that I don't need, etc. all done from home. Also, many daycares will accept employees' kids for little to nothing. Voila, job and childcare problem solved. One summer I went thrift shopping on my days off and brought home more through e-Bay sales than my paycheck. I also seriously doubt there are that many women in the world who are completely separated from all friends and family. When I wasn't in school and my mom couldn't afford a full week of full day daycare, I was juggled around to everyone she could think of. Or, for struggling married women, how about getting a part-time job during a different shift from the husband? My goodness if the guy's working every day of the week with overtime and still can't buy food, you've got some labor law issues there! I have seen first hand, single women who went out and took care of their children, my mom being one of them. She had no education and tried to reject child support until the state mandated that she take the bare minimum (that doesn't go far), but every day she took me to day care and went to work as a cashier. For a while, she did bookkeeping on weekends. Sometimes, she made extra income doing calligraphy. So, the BS about not having an education doesn't work either. Without having a degree, I got a $16,000 a year supervisory job at 21 based on my retail experience in my high school job. And college? With a Pell grant, state grants, and subsidized loans (all based on low income) state school tuition is nearly free. You can get aid even at half time (6 hours.) I looked into it for this summer quarter- At half time, the grants would have fallen about $500 short (that could be covered by a loan) At full time, my tuition was completely covered, and the grants were enough to cover books. And, loans can cover any school related expense. Enough to make up for money spent on a baby-sitter during class time if you don't mind taking out a little extra. Even if you are seriously lacking in skills, if you start somewhere in high school and work a while, you can earn a living wage with your experience after graduation. I've also seen women with the exact same opportunities, who would not work at all. I've seen whining about poor starting wages, but you know what? You stay a while and you get a raise or a promotion. I have absolutely no compassion for someone who isn't willing to go out and make their own way in life. Think about immigrants... there are Mexicans who are desperate to come in and work for a living. They are willing to pack into a truck and share a dinky apartment for the chance to work. Americans don't even have to go to such desperate measures, yet we still have people who sit at home because they can't find a job that pays enough to outweigh welfare. I think some Cubans floating on rafts might be delighted to have a job here. There's the issue of choices, too. People who can't afford their kids shouldn't have more. One accident maybe, but you can't possibly have a whole housefull of them! And yes, the stereotypical welfare recipient with a bunch of kids, DOES exist. Maybe girls should be a little choosier about who they sleep with. Hmm... make sure the guy's not a scum bucket before you get in the situation to possibly became pregnant in the first place. Maybe kids shouldn't be in a hurry to get married and start families that will overwhelm their budgets. There are so many ways to avoid becoming a poor single parent in the first place. Maybe if people would take charge of the lives in the first place and consider their decisions carefully, they wouldn't get into the position to start with. And if they do end up in that position.. deal with it. What do you think people did pre-welfare? Nope, age will not convince me that I should feel sorry for lazy people. There have been all kinds of pansy excuses spouted out here, mostly absurd. The welfare system is crazy. It gives people an excuse not to try. Its a slap in the face of those who do that work harder to get by on the same amount or less. As for the excuse that its difficult to get... well if its that bad, with so much horrific paperwork, why not help yourself and get a job instead of hanging out in a government office trying to get help? Why the heck should we all be responsible for other people's kids and poor decisions? I'm just wondering when the liberals here are going to get a grip, stop crying about hungry kids, and realize that it is perfectly possible to be self sufficient. |
#303
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Oh, and for heaven's sakes... $15,000 a YEAR? Do you know what the
poverty level is? It sounds like you didn't like that coworker and have based all your assumptions about people receiving aid on her. I'll say! Good god almighty! $15,000 a year is a sneeze. Your coworker was making a lot more somehow, or *charging* a ton more. You can't know what people's money is without being their accountant. You can't go by what they say -- and you CERTAINLY can't go by what the office gossip is! Are you living in the real world at all? ~~ Sooz |
#304
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I was on WIC and we had food stamps for a while when I was pregnant with
my son... not because I was a simle mother, but because my minimum-wage full-time job at a glass factory wasn't enough to pay our bills, and my worthless husband wouldn't work. After he thankfully left me with our two-year-old daughter and six-month-old son, I was able to go off aid (one less mouth to feed), got a better job and bought my house. Now I'm self-employed, married to a self-employed man, we both work like dogs, and we're finally able to pay all our bills (knock on wood). We have never been on state aid. The kids were on the state health plan until last year when we could finally afford insurance. How's that for bootstraps? It's a far cray from the empty belly I had too often when I was a kid. But I've said it before and I'll say it again; I was lucky. I had good health, a good emotional support system, and I didn't face any terrible adversity. It's the people who are UNlucky that I hope to help with my taxes. Including people like Mjoann, who is on a short street to total state dependency herself, if what she says is true. -Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay Kathy N-V wrote: On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 4:40:38 -0400, mjoann wrote (in message ): I expect to go out and work for the things I want. Its about being willing to go out and work for a living rather than whining for someone to do it for you. It is not impossible; people come here from other countries every day to work. No its not pretty, but that's what you have to do if you want to survive. There isn't a need to coddle everyone. - long posting about pullong onesself up by the bootstraps snipped - Well yeah, sort of. If anyone knows about working for a living, and not accepting help, it's me. I started working at age eleven, and worked continousouly from that time until age 39, when my heart gave out. During most of that period, I worked far more than full time. I've never accepted any financial assistance from the government, although I did earn several college scholarships. When my father left our family when I was fifteen, I went from kid to primary financial supporter for the four of us (three kids plus a mom). My mother had no real work experience in the US and very limited English skills. She worked full time (plus side jobs), went to school at night, and refused any and all offers of help. We were eligible for many programs, but Mom was/is far too proud to accept any kind of state/federal/private aid. We went hungry much of the time, and spent years without electricity, phone service or heat, because we couldn't afford it. (Not easy in New England, especially in winter) The one time we went out to dinner during my teens remains memorable as an amazing window into another world. The story ends pretty happily. My mother, through sheer hard work and sacrifice, has created a very nice life for herself. She's about to retire from her job as billing director at a big old hospital, owns her own lovely home, and is very comfortable. She's well educated now, and no one would ever guess that she had ever been dirt poor. My brother, sister and I all are well educated, and until I got sick, all three of us were working in responsible, professional jobs. We all own our own homes and really do live the American Dream. (Nowadays, only 2/3 of the group works. I collect disability insurance, for which I paid premiums while I was working) So yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've certainly walked the walk. I have really mixed feelings about the whole experience, though. Although I'm proud we were able to accomplish all the things we did, I certainly wonder if it was worth it to have never accepted any help. I look at my daughter, whose life is so different than mine was at her age, and am glad that she's busy being a kid, and not worrying about paying some bill or another. I think of those endless meals of macaroni (cooked for a long time, so it would swell and fill you up), and think it would have been a heck of a lot easier if we had asked for even a little help. I remember about sleeping with a million blankets and a hat, or freezing while I showered in ice cold water in the wintertime, and feel sad that my Mom was too proud to have accepted even some heating oil. Full disclosu I don't want to sound like some pathetic soul, and imply for an instant that I didn't have a lot of fun during my teens as well. I did. I had/have a great group of friends, spent a lot of time with a youth group at my church, and have had experiences other people only dream about. Things were grim a lot of the time, but we also had lots of fun and I generally remember my teens as a positive time. Some people abuse the system. We call those people "losers." But the vast majority of people taking aid don't abuse the system at all, and use it as the temporary hand up for which it was intended. I bear them no malice, and I'm glad to see people get this chance - I don't want to share my experience, even though it did turn out all right in the long run. We live in a civilized society, and if we can make life a little easier for those people who need it, that's a wonderful thing. Mostly, I don't have hard feelings for people who accept aid because of what we went through. Life doesn't have to be so darned hard, and I see the terrible price that we all paid for it. All three of us kids have serious health issues that could have been prevented if we'd had the money to see a doctor as kids. We all have major league emotional scars from years of deprivation and terror that if anyone found out how bad things were, we'd have been shipped off to foster homes. Even my mom says she wishes she'd asked for help - it hurts her to know that we could have lived with a lot less pain than we did. Hardship doesn't always build character, sometimes it just leaves scars. You can let your circumstances leave you bitter, or you can use the rough times in life to smooth off the edges. I've chosen the latter - it's made me the woman I am today, and I like her. Mjoann, you are an intelligent woman. You have more tools than most people to make your own bright future (including wealth, if that's what you desire). But it's up to you alone to do that, and if you're looking around at other people and worrying about what they have and you don't, you're not going to ever be able to get to where you want to be. Be glad you aren't dependent on others, and that you are able to work and dream and see. Life can be wonderful, you just have to make it so. Kathy N-V |
#305
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Right on!
-Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay KDK wrote: I used to jump to answer the phone every time it rang. Of course that was before the flood of telemarketing calls, so I knew there was a reasonable chance it was someone I wanted to talk to. But not true anymore. I love caller ID. And then sometimes I don't even bother looking at that - I just let it ring. If it's important they'll leave a message. Kathy K |
#306
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Hee hee hee!
-Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay Dr. Sooz wrote: Oh my god -- this is exactly how I feel. Exactly. Kalera, get out! |
#307
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Isn't it just **odd**, really, if you think about it?
The idea that we are conditioned to believe that if this bell rings in our houses, we have to run and grab the thing. We have to be available. It's just a HABIT. People who spent most of their lives without answering machines have the hardest time breaking this habit (think Your Parents -- mine are in their 70s). Try not answering your phone, no matter what, until you Actually KNOW Who It Is. Do this for 2 weeks. You will break your dependence on the accursed phone....and you will save hours of precious time that you will never get back! I've even had people who don't live here answer my phone on the first ring while visiting me. I NEVER answer the phone -- not unless I'm waiting for a call from our doctor, or Mercury's. That is the ONLY exception. ~~ Sooz |
#308
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We're completely dependent on the government, but in a totally different way (in the
military), and we're having a hard time getting out of it. We know so many military families that have to get food stamps and such, and they're completely separated from their families, while their spouses are deployed overseas. Oh heck, I shouldn't have stepped into this convo...sigh. -- Jalynne - Keeper of the Quilt for ME club list Queen Gypsy (snail mail available upon request) see what i've been up to at www.100megsfree4.com/jalynne "Kalera Stratton" wrote in message ... I was on WIC and we had food stamps for a while when I was pregnant with my son... not because I was a simle mother, but because my minimum-wage full-time job at a glass factory wasn't enough to pay our bills, and my worthless husband wouldn't work. After he thankfully left me with our two-year-old daughter and six-month-old son, I was able to go off aid (one less mouth to feed), got a better job and bought my house. Now I'm self-employed, married to a self-employed man, we both work like dogs, and we're finally able to pay all our bills (knock on wood). We have never been on state aid. The kids were on the state health plan until last year when we could finally afford insurance. How's that for bootstraps? It's a far cray from the empty belly I had too often when I was a kid. But I've said it before and I'll say it again; I was lucky. I had good health, a good emotional support system, and I didn't face any terrible adversity. It's the people who are UNlucky that I hope to help with my taxes. Including people like Mjoann, who is on a short street to total state dependency herself, if what she says is true. -Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay Kathy N-V wrote: On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 4:40:38 -0400, mjoann wrote (in message ): I expect to go out and work for the things I want. Its about being willing to go out and work for a living rather than whining for someone to do it for you. It is not impossible; people come here from other countries every day to work. No its not pretty, but that's what you have to do if you want to survive. There isn't a need to coddle everyone. - long posting about pullong onesself up by the bootstraps snipped - Well yeah, sort of. If anyone knows about working for a living, and not accepting help, it's me. I started working at age eleven, and worked continousouly from that time until age 39, when my heart gave out. During most of that period, I worked far more than full time. I've never accepted any financial assistance from the government, although I did earn several college scholarships. When my father left our family when I was fifteen, I went from kid to primary financial supporter for the four of us (three kids plus a mom). My mother had no real work experience in the US and very limited English skills. She worked full time (plus side jobs), went to school at night, and refused any and all offers of help. We were eligible for many programs, but Mom was/is far too proud to accept any kind of state/federal/private aid. We went hungry much of the time, and spent years without electricity, phone service or heat, because we couldn't afford it. (Not easy in New England, especially in winter) The one time we went out to dinner during my teens remains memorable as an amazing window into another world. The story ends pretty happily. My mother, through sheer hard work and sacrifice, has created a very nice life for herself. She's about to retire from her job as billing director at a big old hospital, owns her own lovely home, and is very comfortable. She's well educated now, and no one would ever guess that she had ever been dirt poor. My brother, sister and I all are well educated, and until I got sick, all three of us were working in responsible, professional jobs. We all own our own homes and really do live the American Dream. (Nowadays, only 2/3 of the group works. I collect disability insurance, for which I paid premiums while I was working) So yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've certainly walked the walk. I have really mixed feelings about the whole experience, though. Although I'm proud we were able to accomplish all the things we did, I certainly wonder if it was worth it to have never accepted any help. I look at my daughter, whose life is so different than mine was at her age, and am glad that she's busy being a kid, and not worrying about paying some bill or another. I think of those endless meals of macaroni (cooked for a long time, so it would swell and fill you up), and think it would have been a heck of a lot easier if we had asked for even a little help. I remember about sleeping with a million blankets and a hat, or freezing while I showered in ice cold water in the wintertime, and feel sad that my Mom was too proud to have accepted even some heating oil. Full disclosu I don't want to sound like some pathetic soul, and imply for an instant that I didn't have a lot of fun during my teens as well. I did. I had/have a great group of friends, spent a lot of time with a youth group at my church, and have had experiences other people only dream about. Things were grim a lot of the time, but we also had lots of fun and I generally remember my teens as a positive time. Some people abuse the system. We call those people "losers." But the vast majority of people taking aid don't abuse the system at all, and use it as the temporary hand up for which it was intended. I bear them no malice, and I'm glad to see people get this chance - I don't want to share my experience, even though it did turn out all right in the long run. We live in a civilized society, and if we can make life a little easier for those people who need it, that's a wonderful thing. Mostly, I don't have hard feelings for people who accept aid because of what we went through. Life doesn't have to be so darned hard, and I see the terrible price that we all paid for it. All three of us kids have serious health issues that could have been prevented if we'd had the money to see a doctor as kids. We all have major league emotional scars from years of deprivation and terror that if anyone found out how bad things were, we'd have been shipped off to foster homes. Even my mom says she wishes she'd asked for help - it hurts her to know that we could have lived with a lot less pain than we did. Hardship doesn't always build character, sometimes it just leaves scars. You can let your circumstances leave you bitter, or you can use the rough times in life to smooth off the edges. I've chosen the latter - it's made me the woman I am today, and I like her. Mjoann, you are an intelligent woman. You have more tools than most people to make your own bright future (including wealth, if that's what you desire). But it's up to you alone to do that, and if you're looking around at other people and worrying about what they have and you don't, you're not going to ever be able to get to where you want to be. Be glad you aren't dependent on others, and that you are able to work and dream and see. Life can be wonderful, you just have to make it so. Kathy N-V |
#309
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Most friends/family now send me email to tell me get off line and call
them Folks have even sent email and waited for a response and then fuss at me for not answering...and I ask them, "Why didn't you call?" They guessed I'd be online and they wouldn't be able to get through. Heh. When we first got an answering machine, hubby and I did a little rap thing for our outgoing message. It was hilarious when we were screening calls, we'd hear folks kind of sputter, then hang up, and call back a few minutes later to leave a rap message Cheers, Carla Dr. Sooz wrote: Isn't it just **odd**, really, if you think about it? The idea that we are conditioned to believe that if this bell rings in our houses, we have to run and grab the thing. We have to be available. It's just a HABIT. People who spent most of their lives without answering machines have the hardest time breaking this habit (think Your Parents -- mine are in their 70s). Try not answering your phone, no matter what, until you Actually KNOW Who It Is. Do this for 2 weeks. You will break your dependence on the accursed phone....and you will save hours of precious time that you will never get back! I've even had people who don't live here answer my phone on the first ring while visiting me. I NEVER answer the phone -- not unless I'm waiting for a call from our doctor, or Mercury's. That is the ONLY exception. ~~ Sooz |
#310
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Yeah, I saw that and almost screamed. I know different areas have
different median incomes, but sheesh! I think of anyone in Chicago trying to raise a kid on that, and it's laughable. Cheers, Carla Kalera Stratton wrote: Oh, and for heaven's sakes... $15,000 a YEAR? Do you know what the poverty level is? It sounds like you didn't like that coworker and have based all your assumptions about people receiving aid on her. -Kalera http://www.beadwife.com http://www.snipurl.com/kebay |
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