Crafters Needed

CHINA CHINA CHINA....MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO.... INDIA INDIA INDIA
throw in a few more 3rd or 4th world countries and try to compete the crap
they flood the US with.
Go to ebay and type in TIFFANY LAMPS......BTB ain't none of them REAL or
ORIGINAL, even if they be sold by "DALE TIFFANY"....POLK STREET TIFFANY and
so on.
note the prices (bids or BIN)........"nuff said!

I can build an 8 panel, 8 piece lamp in ONE EASY HOUR, add the base to it,
packing, shipping, and the rest of the time necessary to effect a
"wholesale" price, and it is no longer competitive. Only 25 years of
experience and about 1,100 units so far.

Howard

--

In the words of the IMMORTAL USED CAR DEALER:
THERE IS AN ASS FOR EVERY SEAT!

Heh! No, not in East St. Louis. That's a wasteland that basically just
needs a good fresh coat of fire. We're in civilization well past the
wasteland.

"Moonraker" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Sawyer, General Manager" Crafts Direct at MetroEast dot Net wrote
in message ...

Please forgive the mistype. The e-mail address is "Crafts Direct at
Metro
East dot Net" not "Quality Crafts at Metro East dot Net" as previously
specified (although that address has now been created...so both are
functional at this time).

PS - You won't find anything in Google until we are up and running. If
you'd like to know a little more about me and one of my Internet-related
companies, check out http://www.apci.net.


Hummmh. Located in East St. Louis, IL. Wonderful location. Makes
downtown Baghdad look like Palm Springs.

The bottom line is that if you make a good quality product, I would like to
sell it online. I will pay you a fair price for it and I will ask you to
drop-ship for me so that we don't waste time and money on warehousing and
added shipping.

It's funny how people *can* go to EBay and pay $25 for something (and the
seller is lucky to turn a $1 profit) yet so many people continue to pay $50
for essentially the same item from other online sources. Consumers are
funny that way. Why do people go to nice big malls to get things that they
could easily have purchased at Wal-Mart or Target? For that matter, why do
they go to Wal-Mart or Target to get things that they can pick up at
auctions or garage sales?

I am not trying to all things to all people. That's absolute futile. With
a nice site, nice products, good customer service before/after the sale and
high visibility (lots of traffic to the site), products will sell at almost
any price. That's a fact. I'm already watching it happen.

You've been doing this for 25 years. I'd love to see your work. I'd love
an opportunity to help you profit from it. If you do, then I do. Do you
have any photos available?

--Kevin

"Howard" wrote in message
...
CHINA CHINA CHINA....MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO.... INDIA INDIA INDIA
throw in a few more 3rd or 4th world countries and try to compete the crap
they flood the US with.
Go to ebay and type in TIFFANY LAMPS......BTB ain't none of them REAL or
ORIGINAL, even if they be sold by "DALE TIFFANY"....POLK STREET TIFFANY
and
so on.
note the prices (bids or BIN)........"nuff said!

I can build an 8 panel, 8 piece lamp in ONE EASY HOUR, add the base to it,
packing, shipping, and the rest of the time necessary to effect a
"wholesale" price, and it is no longer competitive. Only 25 years of
experience and about 1,100 units so far.

Howard

--

In the words of the IMMORTAL USED CAR DEALER:
THERE IS AN ASS FOR EVERY SEAT!

Perhaps I'm displaying a total lack of understanding of what YOU do. But
now that you explained it to me it helps out a lot.

If I purchase from distributor (or manufacturer) then sell to the public at
retail, then I'm probably purchasing from the distributor at wholesale. I'm
already doing this for brick-and-mortar models and several online models.
Even in the brick-and-mortar business we quite frequently have items
drop-shipped directly to our customer. We're finding that our distributors
(BIG ones) are trying more and more to have orders drop-shipped from the
manufacturer. So, it isn't at all uncommon for us to have a new battery
backup unit sold via our brick-and-mortar model and ordered via a
distributor such as Tech Data or Ingram Micro drop-shipped directly to our
customer from the manufacturer (APC or Tripp Lite). This is still a
wholesale model and it even applies to custom goods. Once you get an order
from me and a promise to pay, it is mine to do with as I will. I bought it
from you, not my customer. My customer is NOT your customer and has no
direct dealings with you at all regardless of the fact that I may give you
their shipping address rather than mine. Charge me whatever you like.
Don't give me a discount if you don't want to. Hell, mark it up over your
normal retail price if you want to. Just keep in mind that doing so will
make it less likely that I'll ever get to sell anything..

Ok, crafter is a bad word. I tried saying craftsperson. What works best
here? :-)

Custom stained glass is clearly not a "hey, here's exactly what I make, so
how many do you want?" type of business. Having not participated in
alt.crafts.glass until now I have no idea what the majority of you do with
glass. While some of you might make stained glass, others might blow glass
into ornaments and yet others might make exotic glass adult toys. Some of
these lend themselves well to the model I've proposed. Some would be a
little harder. But even with custom stained glass, I'm sure there's a way
to generate interest and sales over the Internet. Perhaps you are already
doing it and therefore have no use for me. But, if I placed and order for
your product would you not fill it? If I pay for it would you not ship it
to the location I specify?

Here's what you all have to gain from this: I am willing to purchase your
products for resale and assume all responsibility for whatever transactions
occur after said purchase. It's that simple. Either you want to sell your
stuff or you don't. It is in my best interest to always be honest and
forthright with the market about your products. I am not interested in
getting rich quick. I'm already doing just fine. I'm interested in using
my knowledge and experience to do something new and filling a void and
working with talented interesting people all over the country. In the end I
think that people like you should spend as much time as possible doing
exactly what you do best. I want to understand and appreciate what you do
then apply what I do best.

I'm not asking anyone to make any of the compromises you mentioned below.
Don't necessarily sell to me any cheaper than you would to someone
face-to-face. I don't expect you to have a huge inventory or necessarily
any inventory at all. I can easily control what shows up on the site and
how many can be ordered in what period of time. It's my job to worry about
all of that. Your job is to make quality products in a reasonably timely
fashion, ship them appropriately, and get paid.

Your product may not be the perfect candidate for this. Nevertheless I'm
still very interested and appreciated all of your communication here. Would
you be willing to share some photos? I'd love to see your work.

--Kevin

"Moonraker" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Sawyer, General Manager" Crafts Direct at MetroEast dot Net wrote
in message ...

Remember, all of this is open to discussion. We're looking for the
proverbial "win-win" here. Anything less is a waste of time.


I think you are displaying a total lack of understanding of
"how-we-do-things" in the stained glass art/craft/industry, Kevin.

Your business model might work for the "crafter" (Gawd, I hate that
word!)
who makes crocheted toilet paper roll covers or repetitively hand paints
little wooden geese wearing blue aprons or some other such tawdry "stuff".

Actually your business model isn't a wholesale one at all. It's more
accurately described as a sales agent-dropship model. Your part is
nothing
more than sales commissions and a bit of handling. Wholesale pricing
means
to me that the wholesaler has a financial stake in the inventory, has
posession of it, and can do with it as he chooses. Consignment means that
the shop-keeper has permission to sell an item, but the right, title, and
interest in the item belongs to the artist until the customer pays up.

Here's why I don't think your idea will work:

Personally (and I bet I'm speaking for the vast majority of folks around
here), my work is custom. It's made to order. It's expensive, and it
takes time to create. It's fragile, can be heavy, and I make wood
shipping
crates for the artwork. I'm not about to invest any time making something
on speculation (no matter where it gets inventoried) when I have work to
do
that is already ordered and deposits paid. I think you'll find my
situation
is not an exception to the norm.

For less than $85 a year I have a website with a dedicated IP, all the
search engines have the site at the top of the first page, and all the IT
support I need. Explain to me why I would want to pay you (and
discounting
to sell at wholesale IS, in effect, paying you to distribute my work)
when
you can make no guarantees as to the volume of orders you'll place or the
frequency thereof. I'm willing to spend the money promoting my own
designs
and custom work, but offering you a discount so that you have something
to
sell on your self-promoting website seems counter productive, especially
when I have no say as to what other things or artists you may be offering
and promoting.

I betcha you won't get many takers in the traditional leaded and stained
glass arts, for the reasons I stated above. (Unless you think you can get
rich selling $15 sailboat suncatchers for a $5 profit. And there's
probably plenty of those folks out there with that to offer.) :(

Any professional artisan I know already has outlets for their work either
in
websites, galleries, or at shows. Those that are good don't have the
time
to fill the orders they already have...so you'll be left with the
secondary
level "crafter" who doesn't have any special designs or techniques to
differentiate themselves from 40 more wannabes doing the exact same
sailboat
suncatcher. And that's a recipe for failure. Or mediocrity.

You may find those who make beads and fused jewelry have a different
perspective. They may be willing to have an inventory of ready to sell
items, but when they sell something offline, are you gonna be ready to
update their inventory levels on a 24-7 basis? Do you think they are
willing to reserve a one-off item for your website when they have a
face-to-face retail buyer? You do realize that this artwork isn't mass
produced and is unique? If I can sell something right now for $100 or
wait
for you to "maybe" sell it and get paid $50...that choice is easy to make.
And then you are left with an item on your website that no longer is
available for sale.

If you search the archives of alt.professional.crafts you'll see much
more
about this topic. Yours isn't an original idea...I've seen this topic two
dozen times in the last 5 years, and I guess you'll be the first to ever
get it off the ground. Everyone else failed. But, hey, good luck.

For years us oldtimers have been trying to figure out ways to mass
market our products to actually turn a profit. We've all found our niche,
but not via mass marking. Our products are for the most part too time
consuming to create, and thus there is little room for another "partner"
that takes a slice, or boosts the price over the moon. China and Mexico are
only the latest intruders to try this. They have choked the market on lamp
shades. (Good... I hated making them anyway.) Granted their labor cost is
about $10 for a 6 day 16 hour week, but the quality has been awful. . Now
they are attempting to cover this up by using 1000 pieces of glass in a 12"
x 18" panel that sells for $99 bucks. Lots of pretty colors and art glass,
but I don't see them flying out of the stores even for those prices.
My customers love to pay me to make them a custom designed panel with
their choice of colors, my design, and seem to be happy about it. As for
selling crafty, arty, stuff.... I leave that to my students. They have lots
of time on their hands, and no idea how to price it.

--
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

I appreciated the feedback. If you have a product that generally does not
sell to the masses, there are two good places to market it: at specialty
trade shows, and on the Internet. So, while there is somewhat of a "mass
marketing" aspect to what I have envisioned, what I am really trying to do
is make it easy for the scattered few who are interested in such quality
crafts to find a centralized source. There are probably people in Oregon
who would love to buy your crafts. However, they have no idea that you
exist. The more specialized and customized the craft, the more this becomes
a problem...and it's because conventional geography-based marketing (usually
within an hour or so of your location) does not have enough interested or
otherwise qualified buyers.

I have no desire to boost the price over the moon. A fair profit is just
that. You should get paid what you deserve and no more. The same applies
to me. I do not presume to deserve a 100% markup in any case (unless you're
selling me $2 trinkets perhaps, but I probably won't consider them to be
"quality crafts").

--Kevin

PS - Enter "stained glass kits" into Google and look at the top five.
Perhaps the first two are worth something. After that, while the art/craft
may be worth something, the sites are almost useless in my opinion. Of
course "kits" are just one application of stained glass. But this is a
pretty good example of the void that exists. Even if you made the worst
stained glass kits in on the planet, I'm willing to wager that I could have
the nicest site to sell it with the highest visibility and therefore the
most traffic and crank out some serious sales. However, I'm not at all
interested in schlepping crud. Quality only!

"jk" wrote in message
t...
For years us oldtimers have been trying to figure out ways to mass
market our products to actually turn a profit. We've all found our niche,
but not via mass marking. Our products are for the most part too time
consuming to create, and thus there is little room for another "partner"
that takes a slice, or boosts the price over the moon. China and Mexico
are
only the latest intruders to try this. They have choked the market on lamp
shades. (Good... I hated making them anyway.) Granted their labor cost is
about $10 for a 6 day 16 hour week, but the quality has been awful. . Now
they are attempting to cover this up by using 1000 pieces of glass in a
12"
x 18" panel that sells for $99 bucks. Lots of pretty colors and art glass,
but I don't see them flying out of the stores even for those prices.
My customers love to pay me to make them a custom designed panel with
their choice of colors, my design, and seem to be happy about it. As for
selling crafty, arty, stuff.... I leave that to my students. They have
lots
of time on their hands, and no idea how to price it.

--
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories

I'm an occasional lurker here, and I must say that whoever you are and
whatever you do, you're remarkably patient with skeptics and people who've
been burned by others in the past. That's kind of refreshing to see in a
newsgroup these days.
- Steve Richardson
St Louis MO (NOT East St Louis IL -- a friend's car cracked a piston just as
we were entering ESL on our way to a junkyard outside town, and we never
even thought about slowing down, much less stopping....)

"Kevin Sawyer, General Manager" Crafts Direct at MetroEast dot Net wrote
in message ...
Perhaps I'm displaying a total lack of understanding of what YOU do. But
now that you explained it to me it helps out a lot.

If I purchase from distributor (or manufacturer) then sell to the public
at
retail, then I'm probably purchasing from the distributor at wholesale.
I'm
already doing this for brick-and-mortar models and several online models.
Even in the brick-and-mortar business we quite frequently have items
drop-shipped directly to our customer. We're finding that our
distributors
(BIG ones) are trying more and more to have orders drop-shipped from the
manufacturer. So, it isn't at all uncommon for us to have a new battery
backup unit sold via our brick-and-mortar model and ordered via a
distributor such as Tech Data or Ingram Micro drop-shipped directly to our
customer from the manufacturer (APC or Tripp Lite). This is still a
wholesale model and it even applies to custom goods. Once you get an
order
from me and a promise to pay, it is mine to do with as I will. I bought
it
from you, not my customer. My customer is NOT your customer and has no
direct dealings with you at all regardless of the fact that I may give you
their shipping address rather than mine. Charge me whatever you like.
Don't give me a discount if you don't want to. Hell, mark it up over your
normal retail price if you want to. Just keep in mind that doing so will
make it less likely that I'll ever get to sell anything..

Ok, crafter is a bad word. I tried saying craftsperson. What works best
here? :-)

Custom stained glass is clearly not a "hey, here's exactly what I make, so
how many do you want?" type of business. Having not participated in
alt.crafts.glass until now I have no idea what the majority of you do with
glass. While some of you might make stained glass, others might blow
glass
into ornaments and yet others might make exotic glass adult toys. Some of
these lend themselves well to the model I've proposed. Some would be a
little harder. But even with custom stained glass, I'm sure there's a way
to generate interest and sales over the Internet. Perhaps you are already
doing it and therefore have no use for me. But, if I placed and order for
your product would you not fill it? If I pay for it would you not ship it
to the location I specify?

Here's what you all have to gain from this: I am willing to purchase your
products for resale and assume all responsibility for whatever
transactions
occur after said purchase. It's that simple. Either you want to sell
your
stuff or you don't. It is in my best interest to always be honest and
forthright with the market about your products. I am not interested in
getting rich quick. I'm already doing just fine. I'm interested in using
my knowledge and experience to do something new and filling a void and
working with talented interesting people all over the country. In the end
I
think that people like you should spend as much time as possible doing
exactly what you do best. I want to understand and appreciate what you do
then apply what I do best.

I'm not asking anyone to make any of the compromises you mentioned below.
Don't necessarily sell to me any cheaper than you would to someone
face-to-face. I don't expect you to have a huge inventory or necessarily
any inventory at all. I can easily control what shows up on the site and
how many can be ordered in what period of time. It's my job to worry
about
all of that. Your job is to make quality products in a reasonably timely
fashion, ship them appropriately, and get paid.

Your product may not be the perfect candidate for this. Nevertheless I'm
still very interested and appreciated all of your communication here.
Would
you be willing to share some photos? I'd love to see your work.

--Kevin

"Moonraker" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Sawyer, General Manager" Crafts Direct at MetroEast dot Net
wrote
in message ...

Remember, all of this is open to discussion. We're looking for the
proverbial "win-win" here. Anything less is a waste of time.


I think you are displaying a total lack of understanding of
"how-we-do-things" in the stained glass art/craft/industry, Kevin.

Your business model might work for the "crafter" (Gawd, I hate that
word!)
who makes crocheted toilet paper roll covers or repetitively hand paints
little wooden geese wearing blue aprons or some other such tawdry
"stuff".

Actually your business model isn't a wholesale one at all. It's more
accurately described as a sales agent-dropship model. Your part is
nothing
more than sales commissions and a bit of handling. Wholesale pricing
means
to me that the wholesaler has a financial stake in the inventory, has
posession of it, and can do with it as he chooses. Consignment means
that
the shop-keeper has permission to sell an item, but the right, title,
and
interest in the item belongs to the artist until the customer pays up.

Here's why I don't think your idea will work:

Personally (and I bet I'm speaking for the vast majority of folks around
here), my work is custom. It's made to order. It's expensive, and it
takes time to create. It's fragile, can be heavy, and I make wood
shipping
crates for the artwork. I'm not about to invest any time making
something
on speculation (no matter where it gets inventoried) when I have work to
do
that is already ordered and deposits paid. I think you'll find my
situation
is not an exception to the norm.

For less than $85 a year I have a website with a dedicated IP, all the
search engines have the site at the top of the first page, and all the
IT
support I need. Explain to me why I would want to pay you (and
discounting
to sell at wholesale IS, in effect, paying you to distribute my work)
when
you can make no guarantees as to the volume of orders you'll place or
the
frequency thereof. I'm willing to spend the money promoting my own
designs
and custom work, but offering you a discount so that you have something
to
sell on your self-promoting website seems counter productive, especially
when I have no say as to what other things or artists you may be
offering
and promoting.

I betcha you won't get many takers in the traditional leaded and stained
glass arts, for the reasons I stated above. (Unless you think you can
get
rich selling $15 sailboat suncatchers for a $5 profit. And there's
probably plenty of those folks out there with that to offer.) :(

Any professional artisan I know already has outlets for their work
either
in
websites, galleries, or at shows. Those that are good don't have the
time
to fill the orders they already have...so you'll be left with the
secondary
level "crafter" who doesn't have any special designs or techniques to
differentiate themselves from 40 more wannabes doing the exact same
sailboat
suncatcher. And that's a recipe for failure. Or mediocrity.

You may find those who make beads and fused jewelry have a different
perspective. They may be willing to have an inventory of ready to sell
items, but when they sell something offline, are you gonna be ready to
update their inventory levels on a 24-7 basis? Do you think they are
willing to reserve a one-off item for your website when they have a
face-to-face retail buyer? You do realize that this artwork isn't mass
produced and is unique? If I can sell something right now for $100 or
wait
for you to "maybe" sell it and get paid $50...that choice is easy to
make.
And then you are left with an item on your website that no longer is
available for sale.

If you search the archives of alt.professional.crafts you'll see much
more
about this topic. Yours isn't an original idea...I've seen this topic
two
dozen times in the last 5 years, and I guess you'll be the first to
ever
get it off the ground. Everyone else failed. But, hey, good luck.

"Steve Richardson" wrote in message ...

- Steve Richardson
St Louis MO (NOT East St Louis IL -- a friend's car cracked a piston just as
we were entering ESL on our way to a junkyard outside town, and we never
even thought about slowing down, much less stopping....)

Steve - why'd you put that in your sig? Just curious.

- Bev, stained glass, fused glass, glass, glass, glass and lives in U-City

Bev - Somewhere way back near the beginning of this thread, somebody made a
crack about East St Louis and I was keying off that in an idle moment. I
haven't had time to check back since then, so I missed your question. I've
been busy making, or trying to make, the first of four identical panels for
someone I've known too long to say "no" to, even though there's no money in
it and I'll be lucky to cover the cost of materials. After a week of
after-hours work I'm not at all satisfied with the workmanship and normally
I'd start over, but there's a deadline looming and I need to start panel
number two. This is literally the first spare moment I've had to check the
group since your question. It'll probably be a long time before I look in
again!
- Steve R

"Bev Brandt" wrote in message
om...
"Steve Richardson" wrote in message
...

- Steve Richardson
St Louis MO (NOT East St Louis IL -- a friend's car cracked a piston
just as
we were entering ESL on our way to a junkyard outside town, and we never
even thought about slowing down, much less stopping....)

Steve - why'd you put that in your sig? Just curious.

- Bev, stained glass, fused glass, glass, glass, glass and lives in U-City