Yoohoo, Mommies!

Lucille wrote:

Please don't take my responsibility over a word as an apology. I merely
wanted to clear up a misunderstanding.


Understood. But I do appreciate the maturity of your taking
responsibility instead of letting people continue to attack me over a
word that I didn't say. It certainly would have been easier to let me
take the flak for your word than to own up to it, and I think that
deserves public recognition.

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/

Karen C in California wrote:
Dr. Brat wrote:

But I have not seen, as you claim, anyone saying that a majority of
seniors are online. I have seen people questioning your statistics


No? Go back and read Lucille's and Sheena's statements that almost
every senior they know is online.

Do you really not know the difference between "every senior" and "every
senior I know." Really? Now who's putting words in people's mouths?

And they're not "my" statistics. I was so enamored of how everyone
else's statistics supported my statement that seniors are the age group
"least likely to have a computer" that I never got around to looking for
my own.

Fine, a majority of white, college-educated males are online; I can
readily agree that's likely even without a statistic to back it up. But
my initial statement didn't differentiate between rich white men and
poor black women or anything other than by age group.

I'd be willing to bet that your original statement didn't differentiate
because it didn't occur to you to differentiate. But don't let that
inconvenient fact get in your way.

All the statistics provided by other people have shown that, in fact,
just as I said initially, seniors are the age group "least likely to
have a computer". Even the highest number for "over 65", not broken
down by race/income/education, proves that only a minority of seniors
have computers.

Yup. And nobody really contested that, although they expressed shock
that it would be the case and asked what your source was. They
responded "well, that's not true among the people I know" which makes
sense if you look at who they probably know (yes, I'm making certain
assumptions about the population of Port Lucie, FL and Halifax, NS).

We can break down statistics any way you want, into as minuscule
categories as you like: 100% of Canadian seniors named Sheena who dub
themselves Lucretia are online. 100% of seniors over the age of 80 who
are my parents are not online. But taken as a whole, my initial
statement stands, that the over 65 age group is "least likely to have a
computer" and no one has provided any statistic to prove that statement
wrong. Lucille's attempt to prove it wrong served only to provide the
statistic that 22% of seniors are online, versus a much higher
percentage of under 65s, which is exactly what I said it would be: over
65 "least likely".

Yup. I think that people have agreed with that, and the conversation
was never really about all people 65 and over anyway, was it? It was
about the grannies who attend your craft fair.

Anything about "a majority of seniors" versus "half of seniors" versus
"a third of seniors" versus "22/29/35% of seniors" came in after I made
my statement which still has not been proven wrong.

In Sheena and Lucille's social circles, computer use is apparently
significantly higher than among my family and their social circles. Good
for them. However, the 22% statistic offered up by Lucille proves that
it's not "my crowd" who are the aberration, because the 1-in-5 I'm
seeing both among my family and my parents' neighbors is precisely borne
out by that 22% (+/- margin of error).

Yes, dear, you are so correct. You are always right and never, ever,
wrong. We all know that.

But can we go back and talk about the people likely to attend your craft
fair and your blanket statement that they wouldn't be online? Are you
seriously arguing that they're more like your parents than they are like
Sheena and Lucille? If that's the case, couldn't you have just said so
and avoided all this hubbub instead of making blanket statements about
grannies everywhere?

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"Karen C in California" wrote in message
...
Lucille wrote:

Please don't take my responsibility over a word as an apology. I merely
wanted to clear up a misunderstanding.


Understood. But I do appreciate the maturity of your taking
responsibility instead of letting people continue to attack me over a word
that I didn't say. It certainly would have been easier to let me take the
flak for your word than to own up to it, and I think that deserves public
recognition.

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

Now I would greatly appreciate if you would stop quoting The NY Times
article that stated 22%. As I said before, that article was dated 2004 and
was old news. I'm convinced that the new percentage would be higher,
especially given my knowledge of the people I'm surrounded by and I call
friends or acquaintences.

Of my old friends, both here in Florida and back in New York and all over
the world, nearly all of them have computers and at least a working
knowledge of how to use them. If for no other reason, it's to show their
grandkids that they aren't completely out of it and still can learn.

L

Karen C in California wrote:
Dr. Brat wrote:

You know, if this were happening to me on a regular basis, I would
start rereading my posts very carefully for underlying messages before
sending them.

You mean reading them looking for any little thing that someone with a
bone to pick might be able to twist around in order to pick that bone?

No. I mean reading them to see what people who normally are kind to me
might find offensive. Unless, of course, you want to claim that most
people on this group are not kind to you, in which case I wonder why you
are here.

I'll do that on legal documents, but internet postings aren't that
important for me to look at for three hours to see what someone with an
ulterior motive could possibly read into a simple declarative sentence.

But you'll spend six hours defending yourself from someone with no
ulterior motive who simply misunderstood you rather than take the time
to compose your post more carefully in the first place. Ok, whatever.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

says...

But I do appreciate the maturity of your taking
responsibility

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ....
--
another anne, add ingers to reply

"lucretia borgia" wrote

Think about it, Sheena... It's cold and snowy where you are. The old
folks here are never housebound or isolated by winter weather, because
we never have snow or icy roads. They're out and about and doing
things, not home with only their computer for company. The local bus
company gives free lifetime passes to people over 80, so there's no need
for anyone in this town to sit home alone just because they've given up
driving, and weather is never an issue.

I have to break my word to say nothing more - MY LIFE IS NOTHING LIKE
WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING ~ I go out pretty much regardless of weather,
it's a VERY rare day I am in 24/24 - very rare. Your picture of
seniors is terribly warped.

People learn to live with the conditions around them. Our weather here
might strike Karen's neighbours in California as horrible--but few of them
have much experience with it. People who have coped with it for 60+ years
dress warmly, wear shoes with good grips (loooove those traction thingies
you can bungee on) and go about their business. (and say, yup, it's a dry
cold). We know what to expect, how to cope, and when to stay in.

They would likely wonder about people living in California in the summer,
with smog and pollution alerts, and how old people could possible go
outside. How do they breathe?? And the answer is, people know what to
expect, how to cope, and when to stay in.

And it would take a lot more than a mere snowstorm to slow Sheena down.

Dawne

"Cheryl Isaak" wrote
I think there are ads in some of the "kids" magazines. Or was that the
latest clone???

Sadly, as with so many trends heavily marketed to kids, Webkinz has its own
magazine.

Dawne

Dr. Brat wrote:

The part that you snipped, DIP****:



Is this the way you conduct your classroom discussions, by misquoting
people and calling them dip****s when they don't bore everyone by
restating your previous argument in its entirety?

If you were my professor, you'd be out of a job for such unprofessional
language. Perhaps I should forward this to the Academic Dean of your
institution and let him see what you consider to be a mature
professional debating style; I'm sure he'll be duly impressed.

Don't cite small-segment statistics in order to prove that "on the
whole" statements are erroneous, when, in fact, the "on the whole"
statistics have unanimously proven my point that on the whole seniors
are "least likely to own" computers. I know full well that rich white
male lawyers of any age are more likely to own a computer than poor
illiterate cleaning ladies of the same age. But I wasn't discussing
statistics based on anything other than age range.

It shows your desperation that the only way you can prove me wrong is by
taking a small segment of the population and claiming that that somehow
disproves the statistic for the whole population.

In point of fact, I have not provided any statistics; I have happily
adopted the statistics provided by others because they did, in fact,
prove my point that 22/29/35% of over-65s (i.e., not a majority) own
computers and that whichever of those numbers you wish to use is lower
than the percentage of younger people who own computers.

My original statement is borne out by everyone else's statistics for the
age range as a whole.

That other people threw in words like "boring", "stupid" and "rich white
men" has nothing to do with the statistical evidence unanimously
supporting my original statement.

Now go wash your mouth out with soap for that language. Unlike
Lucille's maturity in acknowledging that she's the one who should take
the flak for introducing the word "boring", you're simply acting
childish by resorting to name-calling when the facts don't bear you out.

--

Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/

"Karen C in California" wrote
Well, their word of mouth seems to have failed to reach Mom's social
circle or mine. None of the grannies she asked had any clue about them.

Before I started working at the book store last August, I wouldn't
necessarily been very savvy about them, not because they weren't around in
lots of stores, but because to someone not especially interested, they look
like another cute stuffed toy. The name did register with me, because it was
all over the displays. But the card store chain that carries them carries
other stuffed animals, some of which also have distinctive brand names. So
you might just walk by them, or even pick one up, and say "cute", but not
recognize their particular gimmick. I wasn't buying stuffed toys for
anyone, so I wouldn't have paid attention.
By last Christmas, there were trading cards, jewellery, clothes for the
toys, totes for them, etc etc.

Dawne

Dr. Brat wrote:

You generalize from your personal
observations and then get ****y when others counter with their personal
observations. The article Ericka quotes shows that Lucille and Sheena
are no more out of line with their personal observations than you are
with yours. But you still don't understand that the issue is
GENERALIZING from those observations, do you?




The issue is that I have generalized from my observations that over 65
is the age range "least likely to own a computer" and the statistics
have borne me out.

Sheena and Lucille have generalized from their observations that there
is almost-universal computer usage among their over 65 friends, and the
statistics have proven that, in fact, on the whole, coast-to-coast, only
22-35% of seniors (pick one of the various numbers provided by others)
are online and that, in fact, as I stated, as a whole, that age group is
"least likely to own a computer". I don't dispute their observations in
their own social circles, but the statistics don't bear out *their*
generalizations that my family/friends are the only Luddites out there.

In fact, (pick one of the statistics cited earlier by other people)
65-78% of seniors do NOT have computers, which even at the low end is a
notable majority, and at the high end squares with my own observations
that only 1-in-5 do.

What is so difficult in admitting that when I stated that seniors, on
the whole, are "least likely to own a computer" and the statistics show
that only about a fifth to a third do, in fact, use computers, I made a
correct statement that computer ownership is lower among seniors than
among other age ranges?

All the other arguments about "boring", "stupid", small segments of the
population, are nothing but red herrings to distract from the fact that
I was correct: fewer than half of seniors own computers and more than
half of non-seniors do.

I haven't brought a single statistic of my own to this conversation,
other than my vague recollection that the newspaper said "least likely
to own". I've adopted everyone else's statistics, and they have then
tried to disown them after I've stated that I find these acceptable.

--

Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

Finished 7/27/08 - MLI Christmas Visit

WIP: Oriental Kimono (Janlynn), MLI The Teacher (gift to
the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://journals.aol.com/kmc528/Lifeasweknowit/