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Installing three zone controller on your kiln



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 25th 06, 04:04 PM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
Davis Salks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln

Dear fellow potters,

I just purchased and installed a three zone controller for my kiln. I
would like to warn anyone who is considering doing this.

I am generally satisfied with the controller itself, and the company
provided me with responsive and competent technical support. But they
did not guide me in determining whther my kiln would be sufficiently
powerful enough, and I am disappointerd with this.

So here is my advise. There is one major thing that you must consider
before retrofitting a 3-zone controller to your kiln. Your kiln must
have considerable surplus power to reach your highest working cone. And
I do mean considerable.

Here's why. When you run your kiln manually, and let's say your reach
your cone in the last half hour at a rate of 108 DegF\Hr. Then,
assuming that you are running at full capacity to achieve this, then
you will certainly not be able to maintain this same rate with the kiln
controller. The controller will be switching your elements on and off
as it tries to maintain even heat, so only a percentage of your kiln's
capacity will be used. Consequently, it will not be able to maintain
your intended rate of heating and may not even be able to reach your
cone.

I am not an expert, so I can't give you any kind of formula to use for
determining this. However, it would seem that if you can reach your
cone reasonably by running at, say, only two-thirds of your full power
(such as running with only 4 elemnts out of 6 total), then it might
work out okay.

If not, you'll still be able to run your kiln unattended, but you will
not be able to get uniformly heated zones at the end of your fire.

Ads
  #2  
Old December 25th 06, 04:54 PM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
Bob Masta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 96
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln

On 25 Dec 2006 07:04:25 -0800, "Davis Salks"
wrote:

Dear fellow potters,

I just purchased and installed a three zone controller for my kiln. I
would like to warn anyone who is considering doing this.

I am generally satisfied with the controller itself, and the company
provided me with responsive and competent technical support. But they
did not guide me in determining whther my kiln would be sufficiently
powerful enough, and I am disappointerd with this.

So here is my advise. There is one major thing that you must consider
before retrofitting a 3-zone controller to your kiln. Your kiln must
have considerable surplus power to reach your highest working cone. And
I do mean considerable.

Here's why. When you run your kiln manually, and let's say your reach
your cone in the last half hour at a rate of 108 DegF\Hr. Then,
assuming that you are running at full capacity to achieve this, then
you will certainly not be able to maintain this same rate with the kiln
controller. The controller will be switching your elements on and off
as it tries to maintain even heat, so only a percentage of your kiln's
capacity will be used. Consequently, it will not be able to maintain
your intended rate of heating and may not even be able to reach your
cone.


Perhaps I misunderstand your problem, but the above doesn't
make sense.

The controller does indeed switch your elements on and off, but
there should be no loss of maximum performance. It's like your
kitchen oven: when the current temperature is below the setpoint,
there is maximum power to the element(s). Only when it reaches the
setpoint does it start cutting back, in order to maintain whatever
temperature you set. The difference with a digital controller is that
there is not just one simple setpoint like your oven, more like a
schedule of setpoints that it sets one after the other.

Yes, it's true that when you set a slow ramp-up, the kiln does not
heat as fast... it's just doing what you told it! This is certainly
not a fault of the controller. It's also possible to set a ramp
that is so steep that the kiln can't meet it even running flat-out.
So you do need to have some experience with your kiln to know
what is possible as far as rise rates go.

But there should never be a problem such as you describe.
You don't need any surplus power at all if you have set your
schedule to be similar to your original uncontrolled rate.
In that case, the controller will not be doing much of anything
until you hit the setpoint. Only then does it start cutting back
on the power in order to hold that temperature.

I am not an expert, so I can't give you any kind of formula to use for
determining this. However, it would seem that if you can reach your
cone reasonably by running at, say, only two-thirds of your full power
(such as running with only 4 elemnts out of 6 total), then it might
work out okay.

If not, you'll still be able to run your kiln unattended, but you will
not be able to get uniformly heated zones at the end of your fire.

Again, perhaps I have misunderstood your problem, but my
suspicion is that you have simply set an unreasonable schedule.
One thing you might consider is running the kiln the old way
and recording the temperatures every hour, then use that data
to set a controller schedule that comes close to the "natural"
kiln performance. The difference is that once you reach the
cone setting, you will now be able to hold that for as long as
you want, or to cut back to a somewhat lower setting for
crystal growth, etc.

Once you have this base ramp -up information, you can
feel free to set slower ramps over any temperature region.

Best regards,


Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator
  #3  
Old December 25th 06, 11:23 PM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
David Coggins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln

I just purchased and installed a three zone controller for my kiln. I
would like to warn anyone who is considering doing this.


From my experience with three zone controllers, the problem could possibly
occur under certain conditions.

The kiln would need to be firing very unevenly in heat distribution, and I
assume this was the case to require fitting of a three zone controller in
the first place. Many of the tall top loading kilns suffer from this
problem - too hot at the top and too cold at the bottom. Also the elements
would need to be slightly low in power dissipation for the kiln size, either
through poor element design (a common problem) or age. In other words the
kiln was just managing the required firing cycle before the fitting of the
new controller.

After fitting the three zone controller, the top set of elements will be
cycled off some of the time to try to keep the top in line with the
temperature in the rest of the kiln, while the middle and lower elements are
running at full blast . The net result is that the overall power dissipated
during the firing is down enough to slow the firing cycle, or even prevent
the completion of the cycle.

Many kilns are so poorly designed that they have very little reserve power
available when new, and after a lot of firings they are struggling to reach
the end of the cycle.

One answer might be to fit a kiln vent which draws a little hot air down
from the top through the bottom of the kiln and can often make the kiln fire
evenly. The best solution may be to fit new, properly designed, elements to
compensate for the uneven firing.

A couple of questions for the original poster. What sort of kiln are you
using? Did you have trouble with uneven firings? I worked as a kiln
technician for many years, and I often had to redesign elements for tall
toploaders to compensate for very uneven firing.

Cheers

Dave

But there should never be a problem such as you describe.
You don't need any surplus power at all if you have set your
schedule to be similar to your original uncontrolled rate.
In that case, the controller will not be doing much of anything
until you hit the setpoint. Only then does it start cutting back
on the power in order to hold that temperature.


I am not an expert, so I can't give you any kind of formula to use for
determining this. However, it would seem that if you can reach your
cone reasonably by running at, say, only two-thirds of your full power
(such as running with only 4 elemnts out of 6 total), then it might
work out okay.

If not, you'll still be able to run your kiln unattended, but you will
not be able to get uniformly heated zones at the end of your fire.


Again, perhaps I have misunderstood your problem, but my
suspicion is that you have simply set an unreasonable schedule.
One thing you might consider is running the kiln the old way
and recording the temperatures every hour, then use that data
to set a controller schedule that comes close to the "natural"
kiln performance. The difference is that once you reach the
cone setting, you will now be able to hold that for as long as
you want, or to cut back to a somewhat lower setting for
crystal growth, etc.

Once you have this base ramp -up information, you can
feel free to set slower ramps over any temperature region.

Best regards,


Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator



  #4  
Old December 26th 06, 02:26 AM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
Bob Eld
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln


"Davis Salks" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dear fellow potters,

I just purchased and installed a three zone controller for my kiln. I
would like to warn anyone who is considering doing this.

I am generally satisfied with the controller itself, and the company
provided me with responsive and competent technical support. But they
did not guide me in determining whther my kiln would be sufficiently
powerful enough, and I am disappointerd with this.

So here is my advise. There is one major thing that you must consider
before retrofitting a 3-zone controller to your kiln. Your kiln must
have considerable surplus power to reach your highest working cone. And
I do mean considerable.

Here's why. When you run your kiln manually, and let's say your reach
your cone in the last half hour at a rate of 108 DegF\Hr. Then,
assuming that you are running at full capacity to achieve this, then
you will certainly not be able to maintain this same rate with the kiln
controller. The controller will be switching your elements on and off
as it tries to maintain even heat, so only a percentage of your kiln's
capacity will be used. Consequently, it will not be able to maintain
your intended rate of heating and may not even be able to reach your
cone.

I am not an expert, so I can't give you any kind of formula to use for
determining this. However, it would seem that if you can reach your
cone reasonably by running at, say, only two-thirds of your full power
(such as running with only 4 elemnts out of 6 total), then it might
work out okay.

If not, you'll still be able to run your kiln unattended, but you will
not be able to get uniformly heated zones at the end of your fire.


I think you are quite correct. Simply put, a kiln controller can only work
by turning off elements in the hotest zones It cannot add any additional
heat in the cooler zones by turning on non-existent elements or running the
current higher or something. In other words, It works by reducing power
where it is high but has no way to add power beyond the design maximum where
it is low. Therefore the rate of climb and max temp will always be less than
the absolute maximum without a controller, thus the need for reserve.
However, this is true whether it is automatically or manually controlled.


  #5  
Old January 13th 07, 02:53 PM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
Davis Salks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln

I have indeed run the kiln the old way, and tracked the temps. Running
full tilt, I know that in order to reach my target temp, the heat rate
is only around 60 degF per hour in the home stretch. This is running at
max; I'm not even maintaining a cone rate of 108DegF. So I,
respectfully, disagree with your point that "there should be no loss of
maximum performance", because when the controller turns off any of the
coils in an attemp to even the temps, then you must see that, in my
case, my heat rate must also drop below 60.

Also, regarding your statement "This is certainly not a fault of the
controller",it is certainily well taken, and, in my original post, I
did not wish to imply fault on the part of the controller. My intent
was to warn those who may have a kiln, such as mine, that may not
perform sufficiently with such a controller.

I imagine that your experience might be based on working with kilns
that have sufficient power and/or insulation qualities and that are
engineered well.

Bob Masta wrote:
Perhaps I misunderstand your problem, but the above doesn't
make sense.

The controller does indeed switch your elements on and off, but
there should be no loss of maximum performance. It's like your
kitchen oven: when the current temperature is below the setpoint,
there is maximum power to the element(s). Only when it reaches the
setpoint does it start cutting back, in order to maintain whatever
temperature you set. The difference with a digital controller is that
there is not just one simple setpoint like your oven, more like a
schedule of setpoints that it sets one after the other.

Yes, it's true that when you set a slow ramp-up, the kiln does not
heat as fast... it's just doing what you told it! This is certainly
not a fault of the controller. It's also possible to set a ramp
that is so steep that the kiln can't meet it even running flat-out.
So you do need to have some experience with your kiln to know
what is possible as far as rise rates go.

But there should never be a problem such as you describe.
You don't need any surplus power at all if you have set your
schedule to be similar to your original uncontrolled rate.
In that case, the controller will not be doing much of anything
until you hit the setpoint. Only then does it start cutting back
on the power in order to hold that temperature.

I am not an expert, so I can't give you any kind of formula to use for
determining this. However, it would seem that if you can reach your
cone reasonably by running at, say, only two-thirds of your full power
(such as running with only 4 elemnts out of 6 total), then it might
work out okay.

If not, you'll still be able to run your kiln unattended, but you will
not be able to get uniformly heated zones at the end of your fire.

Again, perhaps I have misunderstood your problem, but my
suspicion is that you have simply set an unreasonable schedule.
One thing you might consider is running the kiln the old way
and recording the temperatures every hour, then use that data
to set a controller schedule that comes close to the "natural"
kiln performance. The difference is that once you reach the
cone setting, you will now be able to hold that for as long as
you want, or to cut back to a somewhat lower setting for
crystal growth, etc.

Once you have this base ramp -up information, you can
feel free to set slower ramps over any temperature region.

Best regards,


Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator


  #6  
Old January 13th 07, 03:24 PM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
Davis Salks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln

(David Coggins) The kiln would need to be firing very unevenly in heat distribution, and I
assume this was the case to require fitting of a three zone controller in
the first place.


(Davis Salks) Yes. When running full tilt, my final temp on the bottom
zone is around 35F cooler than the middle, and the top zone is around
20F cooler.

Also the elements
would need to be slightly low in power dissipation for the kiln size, either
through poor element design (a common problem)


I agree with this

or age.


I often hear coments about element age as related to poor performance.
This confuses me because older elements actually run hooter than new
ones. This is because their electical resistance decreases over use.

kiln was just managing the required firing cycle before the fitting of the
new controller.
After fitting the three zone controller, the top set of elements will be
cycled off some of the time to try to keep the top in line with the
temperature in the rest of the kiln, while the middle and lower elements are
running at full blast . The net result is that the overall power dissipated
during the firing is down enough to slow the firing cycle, or even prevent
the completion of the cycle.


You've hit the nail right on the head, Dave!

Many kilns are so poorly designed that they have very little reserve power
available when new, and after a lot of firings they are struggling to reach
the end of the cycle.


A couple of questions for the original poster. What sort of kiln are you
using?


Evenheat, 55 amp, 6 coils, inside 29" dia X 27" high, outside 34" dia X
32 high

Did you have trouble with uneven firings?


Yes, actually that's why I thought that the 3-zone would help. But I
really never considered that the kiln would not have been able to keep
up. I still don't really know how I could have assessed my kiln's
performance for this application.

technician for many years, and I often had to redesign elements for tall
toploaders to compensate for very uneven firing.


I am open to that.

Presently I am going to backup the lid on the outside with 1-1/2" of
vermiculite board and also add 1" of ceramic wool to the floor inside,
hoping that the added insulation will slow down the cooling somewhat in
these areas.

After testing, I will let you know what the resulting temp diffs are.

Thanks

Davis

  #8  
Old January 13th 07, 10:12 PM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
David Coggins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln

I often hear coments about element age as related to poor performance.
This confuses me because older elements actually run hooter than new
ones. This is because their electical resistance decreases over use.


Davis, here is some technical stuff for you. The resistance of elements
INCREASES with age - this is the explanation.

Kanthal element wire is an alloy of several materials, including aluminium.
The aluminium forms an oxide on the outside of the wire which protects the
wire from further oxidation under extreme operating temperatures. However,
it is not perfect, and oxidation continues slowly over the life of the
element - this is why old elements have a very crusty coating. The removal
of the metal from the wire reduces the effective thickness of the wire,
which increases its resistance (thinner wire = higher resistance). The
higher resistance reduces the current (current is inversely proportional to
resistance at the same voltage) and since power is proportional to the
square of the current, power developed by the elements drops by a lot more.
Also, the resistance of an element at maximum temperature increases by up to
4% over the cold resistance. When I was working on kilns I would replace the
element if it showed 10% or more over the design resistance when cold.

I hope this helps.

Regards, Dave


  #9  
Old January 13th 07, 10:20 PM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
David Coggins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln



Presently I am going to backup the lid on the outside with 1-1/2" of
vermiculite board and also add 1" of ceramic wool to the floor inside,
hoping that the added insulation will slow down the cooling somewhat in
these areas.


One further comment here. Adding insulation to the lid and floor may help,
but never make the mistake of putting extra insulation over any external
metal parts. I have seen the stainless steel casing almost melted and badly
deformed by the heat trapped under added insulation.

Have you tried a kiln vent to even out the temperature, they really do work.

Dave


  #10  
Old January 14th 07, 03:59 PM posted to rec.crafts.pottery
Davis Salks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Installing three zone controller on your kiln

The resistance of elements
INCREASES with age - this is the explanation.


David - I stand corrected. Thanks.

Davis

PS - Contact me if you would be interested in helping me revise the
element design. Thanks.

 




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