Meet Matilda Mallstomper

I don`t have the answer to this problem Ericka , and i think i have
made it quite clear what the part is that i find strange. or am not
happy about.
Just notice , the terms you use ,,` project` , and than you say that
the person doesn`t want to spend the time or energy figuring it out ,,
thus maybe he/ she should not do it ??? Does every one Have to do what
others do ??? why is everything to be Instant ,, and us an instant
work like this worth the money /time person puts in it ???
I am have no answers i just wondered aloud ... We who have lived long
enough to have kids of our own , plant trees , make friends , do we
also have to make things for Posterity ??? I am making Fiberart ,
which probably will perish some day ,,, just like we humans ,, it
might live after me,,, or not ,, does it really matter ,,,???
You touch very philosophical questions...
mirjam

And if the choice is between a form that makes the
project seem approachable and doable to the individual, or
no project at all because the person doesn't wish to spend
the time or energy figuring it out?

Best wishes,
Ericka

Thank you Lula for your insight and stories ,,,, yes some teachers are
tecahers ... other just think they teach ,,,,
mirjam
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 02:18:51 -0500, lula
wrote:

Mirjam,

Reading your post reminds me of why some teachers are better than
others.
To me, the best teachers are the ones who inspire their students to seek
more.......the worse teachers are the one who cannot see beyond their
own noses and insist their way is the best or only way to be.

Here's a funny anecdote from my freshman year......my very first oil
painting class.......we were given a still life to paint of peppers next
to a wooden bucket.......I had never painted like this before and this
was my first time using oils.......

So of course I was a nervous and didn't want to "mess" up.....so I
wanted to make my pepper look "perfect"!!! I was so worried about that
darn pepper.....kept painting and painting it because I wanted to the
skin to look just so and the edge of the pepper to be just so......kept
blending the colors and painting the edges......I concentrated very hard
on this..........

By the time the painting professor came by and I looked up, the
professor had a funny look on his face........I had been concentrating
so hard on this one detail that I forgot all about the overall
design.......my pepper was now as "BIG" as the wooden bucket!!!

Geeez, was I mortified! But, instead of being embarrassed by the
professor with an insulting or disparaging remark, he gave me a friendly
pat on my shoulder and told me I had a beautiful sense of color and that
my brush strokes were excellent.........he then went on to talk about an
anecdote in his life how he had done similar during his student days.

He then quietly told me to paint more in proportion next time and not to
completely focus on small details so much but to pay attention to the
overall balance of the composition......he said I had the skills but
needed to observe better........it was a wonderful lesson in more ways
than one.

A few positive remarks helps a lot more than an intimidating glare or
harsh criticism......he could have just as easily said how the hell did
i ever get into art school?!!

I only had one really autocratic professor who insisted his way or no
way at all.....he even told me to drop out of school if I thought I was
so good when I protested about something........I only had one semester
to graduation at the time so had no choice but to put up with
him......even worse, I found out later, he hated women students to
question anything he said.

Overall, I was fortunate that most of my professors insisted I never
change my painting style as I was one of the "lucky" ones who had
already developed a distinctive style.

My college mentor was a well known artist and watercolorist, who
insisted I follow my own muse no matter what any future teacher would
say.....she insisted that I had a unique style and gave me the
confidence to think for myself and to develop my own way.

But, I've heard many horror stories from illustrator friends where
teachers would practically ruin a student's self confidence and art with
harsh criticisms.......actually, I've known of several students to drop
out of art school never to do art again because they were so discouraged
by the professors they got stuck with.

I can't imagine where I'd be today if I had had a few more of the harsh
taskmasters such as that one "bad" professor I had to put up with during
my senior year.
---
Lula
http://www.woolydream.com
Needlework Adventures


Bruck-Cohen wrote:

I have both teached and was an adviser in the ministry of education,,
regarding handcraft courses. I used to comne into classes and see ,,
works that were Teacher copies , which made me feel helpless ,,,
i
tried to tell and teach for students to be THEMSELVES ,,,, use own
color combinations etc,,,, use ther homebackground etc... so if you
ask me ?

from my lonng experience, teaching techniques is good , but
one should strees to the students Not to copy the teacher`s or each
other`s work ,,,,,and yes even the most creative student

2) I don't believe for a minute that any
of this is stifling anyone's creativity one iota.
peer pressure, commercial `accepted` trends Do silence a lot of
budding crativity ... many a `natural` talent , gets lost , just in
the process of this courses ,,,Look at the wonderful Samplers , Most
of us cherish ,,, theat are aklways made in the same format , what
distinguishes them are mostly the Mistakes , the girl that used
another color than her friends , another pattern , not commonly used.
speling mistakes of those times , make it more Costly now , because
the individuality comes through !!!

i dealt with many a student who
were styfeled by a teacher who thougt she was God almighty. We had a
teacher who was so keen on Wooden Frames that she made all her
students Frame every piece of cloth , and many a time she made them
make little frames on the big work , i have had tens of complaints
every year about her. Thus i sat in her class , talked with students
and ex students , and finnaly called in a general meeting with her the
classes she taught , and we made a general debate about " TO frame or
Not to frame ,, and if To frame Why in That method ???"

In the first
hour students were afraid to say , how they felt about it , since
Madam Teacher ,, would Throw a `dirty` look , at every one saying they
were not happy with it ,,, the discussion went on long enough and i
brought 2 Guest , Well known artists , who explained their point of
view..., and waht they felt coming into the `End of Year Exhibition ~
seeing 30 similar works ..... similar in color shape , numbers of
stiches etc,......

Ericka , none of the students of these teachers / courses , has
produced any active artist... all stayed crafters or teachers, and one
of the reasons people enlisted to those classes was always "I want to
become a FiberArtist ????

so what happened to this wish ???. Why do
some of my other colleagues who treach , strongly forbidding any
copying , and making their students THINK for themselves and use as
much as possible different , cheapest materials , preferable found at
home , leftovers etc [ and by this already eliminating the possibility
of students having the same materials !!!!] `breed` year after year ,
New Artists , wonderful creative original artists,

Both kinds of
teachers got the same `kind` of students !!!! who came into the system
for the same reason and went through the same exams to be accepted
???....
Does this answer your question ??

mirjam

Deb I think i have explained and explained it several times ,, it all
comes back to my belief in the right of every person to his/her
individuality !!!! and in my observation how the people get pushed to
be moldedm into groups , who think and behave too much in dicated
behaviours ,, by those in power ,,,,/ money / religion ....
On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:32:48 GMT, Deb Milner
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 06:29:46 GMT, (Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen) wrote:

/letters etc.... and that Geneology is the other side of the same
urge. But that is just my problem with an `Organized To Numbers [or
Formats] ` scrapbooking , because eventually it will loose a lot of
the individulity , as well as valuable other info about the person
doing it.

Why should that bother you? If it works for *them*, why should it
bother you? If *they* enjoy what they create and how they are doing
it, how does that hurt anyone else? Not to mention, that for many, it
would not get done at all if the "organized to numbers" option to
learn and get them interested did not exist.

Not everyone has a "native talent" that pleases them. If this does
what they want it to do, and makes them happy while they are doing it,
I just don't see the problem you have with it.



mirjam
n Sat, 27 Mar 2004 21:16:09 -0500, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:

Karen C - California wrote:


I'm with Cheryl -- I don't "get" the current scrapbooking trend. Doesn't stop
me from buying their fabulous pre-printed papers and borders, to use for
writing letters, but my photos are in a box with the important information
written on the back of them. So often, in the background of old family photos,
was something of far more interest than the people in front -- an old car, a
house, etc. -- I could never bring myself to cut out just the face and discard
the historical details some future generation would find intriguing.

Really? Now, *that* I get. Haven't really been bitten
by the bug, but I understand it ;-) Part of it, of course, is
marketing driven. But part, I think, is that in our fast-paced
lives where far too little is stable, people long to record their
history and tell their stories in ways that will endure and that
allow them to reflect. I don't think that desire is new, which
is why scrapbooks and journals and such have long existed, but
I think many people find it especially salient now. A lot of people
have discovered that they have essentially lost their family
history. I think the huge upswing in genealogy is related as
well.

Best wishes,
Ericka


--
Deb

WIP: How Great Thou Art (Leisure Arts Greatest Hymns II)
EarthDancer (Butternut Road)

Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote:

Ericka i don`t know if you ever teached and esp , craft classes????

I have taught many different things in my life.

I have both teached and was an adviser in the ministry of education,,
regarding handcraft courses. I used to comne into classes and see ,,
works that were Teacher copies , which made me feel helpless ,,, i
tried to tell and teach for students to be THEMSELVES ,,,, use own
color combinations etc,,,, use ther homebackground etc... so if you
ask me ? from my lonng experience, teaching techniques is good , but
one should strees to the students Not to copy the teacher`s or each
other`s work ,,,,,and yes even the most creative student

First, I don't believe that everyone who takes
a scrapbooking class *wants* to be an artist, though in
some ways they are regardless of what they wish. Many
simply want to document the lives of their family in
a way that is pleasing to them.
Second, it's been a long time since I've encountered
any teachers in creative pasttimes of any sort who were so
didactic as to insist that there was only one way. Virtually
everything I've seen was taught as one technique out of many
possibilities. I fail to see that as coercive.

peer pressure, commercial `accepted` trends Do silence a lot of
budding crativity ... many a `natural` talent , gets lost , just in
the process of this courses

Well, you can't exactly have it both ways. For decades,
people who wanted to do things with scrapbooks lamented the
unavailability of the products they were looking for. Well,
now they have those products, and the price to be paid is that
the companies who make them would like to make a buck and will
advertise. I also do not believe that creativity is so fragile
that showing someone a technique will cause it to disappear in
a puff of smoke. I don't know what courses you are taking or
observing, but the vast majority I see welcome creativity on
the part of the students (at least in arts/crafts courses--
they're less interested in creativity in, say, freshman
calculus).

Ericka , none of the students of these teachers / courses , has
produced any active artist... all stayed crafters or teachers, and one
of the reasons people enlisted to those classes was always "I want to
become a FiberArtist ???? so what happened to this wish ???.

I couldn't say, as my experience differs greatly from
yours.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer wrote in news:frSdnQnge_037_XdRVn-
:

I also do not believe that creativity is so fragile
that showing someone a technique will cause it to disappear in
a puff of smoke. I don't know what courses you are taking or
observing, but the vast majority I see welcome creativity on
the part of the students (at least in arts/crafts courses--
they're less interested in creativity in, say, freshman
calculus).

I've taken a few courses in a series from my not-so-local scrapbooking
store. Although everyone is given the same papper, the same stickers, the
same letters, and the same instructions, you would (or perhaps *you*
wouldn't!) be amazed at the variety of the work produced. All used the
technique being taught, but molded it to their own needs.

K

Thank you Chyril , for answering this ,,,,

LOL - I will admit to feeling like I've been tied up and subjected to a
"class" when I go a someone's house for coffee and cookies and discover it's
a cover for selling stamping/candles/scrap book/baskets...(you get the
picture).

Cheryl
just one of the points i wanted to make !!!!
mirjam

Ericka , aren`t you jumping here over a hedge that isn`t there ?

I think if you are going to go about making these
sorts of accusations, you might learn a bit more about the
processes that you're criticizing.
Accusations ?????? excuse me where did you get that BIG word from , i
expressed opinions about commercialized craft activities !!!! as i
see them in my experience as with teaching crafts ,,,,
I haven't yet seen a
single person tied up and subjected to a class. As far as
I can tell, they're all going of their own volition and are
quite happy with what they're doing.
Yes and so are the 99 % who vote for the only candidate , and so are
the people who joined a cult !!!! they all started willingly , and
they are all eager to come back ,,,,,,
They certainly seem
eager to go back (and somewhat mystified I'm not currently
inclined to join them).
lady are you naive or don`t you understand what advertising can do to
your brain ,,,, and your anger towards my not accepting your way of
seeing it ,, tells mountains about How much it is a matter of Peer
pressure ,,,,
I trust that people can make their own decisions
that are best for themselves.
No you don`t trust them !! you just said they are eager , and happy
etc,,, how do you knowc that , maybe the were made to pay in a way
that now it is a pity not to come back and use it !!!
, ok let`s not make this into a flame , we each have different ideas
about what Free thought is ,,,,
Good evening
mirjam

If that means they want to
take classes and buy products or even follow specific
methods, well, they're welcome to in my book. And if they'd
prefer to strike out on their own and chart new creative
territory, bully for them, they can do that too. I have
no interest in devaluing anyone's approach.

I have nothing against the learning anything , i have a lot against
dictations of anything from above or from peer pressure !!!!p

Why do you assume that they are being dictated to
or that they're succumbing to peer pressure? Maybe they
just like it.

Advertising TRENDS , fashions etc,,, are not helping free choices ,,,,
anf if you choose what all your neigbours chose ,, was this free
choice ????

So...unless you always choose differently from
everyone around you, you're a media victim?

So why Suddenly they ALLLLLL want it at this point of time ???

Um, as far as I can tell, the scrapbooks that people
produce, even using all these commercial products and techniques,
are quite different from one another. Sure, they may have
similarities, but they are quite different. Heck, as a musician
(and not a composer) I perform the EXACT SAME NOTES as thousands
or millions of other people every time I play a piece. I like
to labor under the delusion that when *I* do it, even though
I'm playing exactly the same notes, it's still *my* interpretation
and it's therefore different from what someone else would do.
And yet, I'm the product of more than 20 years of rigorous
classical training, which had a *whole* lot of "thou shalts"
in it. Oddly enough, I still seem to be able to interpret
and play those pieces in my own way. I'm quite sure that
any scrapbooker who has anything he or she wants to say with
his or her scrapbook is quite capable of doing the same thing.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On 3/29/04 2:23 PM, in article , "Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen" wrote:

Thank you Chyril , for answering this ,,,,

LOL - I will admit to feeling like I've been tied up and subjected to a
"class" when I go a someone's house for coffee and cookies and discover it's
a cover for selling stamping/candles/scrap book/baskets...(you get the
picture).

Cheryl
just one of the points i wanted to make !!!!
mirjam


I should add that I didn't know that I was going to a (fill in the blank)
party, when my "friend" invited me along. Fool me once, shame on you, fool
me twice - obviously I didn't learn my lesson the first time.

Cheryl

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

LOL - I will admit to feeling like I've been tied up and subjected to a
"class" when I go a someone's house for coffee and cookies and discover it's
a cover for selling stamping/candles/scrap book/baskets...(you get the
picture).

Man, I hate that. I now tell new acquaintances
right up front that I am *NOT* interested in going to Pampered
Chef, Discovery Toys, Weekenders, etc. etc. etc. parties--no
matter *how* low pressure you say it's going to be, no matter
how many of my friends will be there, no matter how much money
you're going to make off of it. I'm just not going to go.
Period. Don't even think it.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On 3/29/04 3:25 PM, in article , "Ericka
Kammerer" wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

LOL - I will admit to feeling like I've been tied up and subjected to a
"class" when I go a someone's house for coffee and cookies and discover it's
a cover for selling stamping/candles/scrap book/baskets...(you get the
picture).

Man, I hate that. I now tell new acquaintances
right up front that I am *NOT* interested in going to Pampered
Chef, Discovery Toys, Weekenders, etc. etc. etc. parties--no
matter *how* low pressure you say it's going to be, no matter
how many of my friends will be there, no matter how much money
you're going to make off of it. I'm just not going to go.
Period. Don't even think it.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Well, I don't go that far. I have gone to a few of those parties knowingly
(even enjoyed them), but I hate being shanghaied.

Cheryl