Ot i wanted for once to see

"Joyce from RSA" wrote in message ...
Mirjam, you agree with me when I say people should give you the benefit of
the doubt when you say things that are not acceptable, but you don't agree
that you should do the same thing when you misunderstand?

Your frequent misinterpretation of what is said is a fact, whether you agree
with it or not. We can tell this immediately from your replies.

As for "allowing the bullies to carry on", look where the fighting back has
taken us! People who want to be nasty have the wind taken out of their sails
if they are ignored. It's the answering back which has made everything so
unpleasant.

Joyce in RSA.

Good points in all your posts. It has taken me several days to
crystallize my thoughts into something more positive, but here
are a few. First of all, there is a great deal of emphasis on
Mirjam's "differentness," but that has never been a factor for me,
and I finally have realized that that is the main reason I have
reacted to her negatively on a number of occasions. I have met
and gotten to know at least one other Holocaust survivor, several
Israelis, many Jewish people, even Palestinians (and Christian
Palestinians at that), plus a lot of other folks from literally all
over the world. I have traveled and lived in other countries and been
lucky enough to get to know all types of people. I am used to
"different," whatever that means, and have been "different" many
times myself. It's really no big deal to me. We're all different,
which is just stating the obvious. Unless I am mistaken, you are
not posting from the United States and I am, so we are "different"
from each other. (Actually, it might be kind of fun to do another
OT thread about where we come from.) What I do think is different
about her is that she is a fiberartist; I don't happen to know
any fiberartists.

Frankly, I think a lot of people -- certainly me -- haven't seen
Mirjam as all that different or exotic, so have often been puzzled at
her reactions: you couldn't possibly understand because I am DIFFERENT.
Well, what the heck, sometimes I am a slow learner. She has a right
to her understanding and philosophy of the world. If she finds
the gaps unbridgeable, so be it. I will make it a point to try
and concentrate on her fiber posts when she makes them. I'm saying
this in public so I'll be behooved to act on my own words; life's
too short. Thanks for making me think.

All the time !!!!
mirjam
dspring.com wrote:

Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote:

Yeah you are right , it is high time, Do you want to listen ?????

Sure. Do you?

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

No Dawne , i have not read that , please can you tell me more.
mirjam
..ca wrote:


"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen"
I have Numerous l;eters from Native Americans , wjop understand my
Historical research and who complain about their situation

Do you have information about David Ahenakew, former chief of the Assembly
of First Nations of Canada, currently under indictment for hate crimes in
my province for his statements that Hitler was doing the right thing when
he "fried" (his horrible words) Jewish people??
It might be an interesting counterpoint.
Dawne

Among the titles of the Queen of England is Defender of the Faith, which
means she must uphold the Church of England. I am a member of the Anglican
Church of Canada, which is in communion with the Church of England, but not
subject to it. The head of ny church is the Primate of the Anglican Church
of Canada, elected from among Canadian bishops by Canadians. As Anglicans,
we pray for the Queen, but she is not the "head" of the worldwide Anglican
communion. We respect the historical primacy of the Archbishop of
Canterbury as first among the bishops of the church, but he does not
dictate matters of faith and doctrine.
Dawne

I am sure this issue is very complicated, but from what I can
remember of history, the title Defender of the Faith is actually a Roman
Catholic title, conferred by the then Pope on, of all people, Henry VIII,
*before* he broke from Rome. England has an "established" church, meaning
church and politics are linked. The Queen is head of the Church of
England, and some archbishops used to sit in the House of Lords; maybe
they still do. However, there are many other Anglican religions, of which
the Episcopalians (?sp) in the USA are one. The Archbishop of Canterbury
is the nominal head of all these Anglican churches. I hope this makes sense.



"Dawne Peterson" ) writes:
Among the titles of the Queen of England is Defender of the Faith, which
means she must uphold the Church of England. I am a member of the Anglican
Church of Canada, which is in communion with the Church of England, but not
subject to it. The head of ny church is the Primate of the Anglican Church
of Canada, elected from among Canadian bishops by Canadians. As Anglicans,
we pray for the Queen, but she is not the "head" of the worldwide Anglican
communion. We respect the historical primacy of the Archbishop of
Canterbury as first among the bishops of the church, but he does not
dictate matters of faith and doctrine.
Dawne


--
Jim Cripwell.
The gods do not subtract from the allotted span of one's life, any
time that is spent in stitching.
Adapted from a sign on The Cobb, Lyme Regis, England.

Thank you, DebM, for reposting the original post, and for reclarifying,
re-edifying the entire situation.
Dianne

Deb - I love you! :-))

Pat P

--
Do not worry about tomorrow`s troubles. Today has enough troubles of it`s
own.
"DebM" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 04:23:34 GMT, (Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen) wrote:

Good Morning , just looked eastwards towards the slopes of the lower
gallilee moutains , [ where Natzeret is] , Very unusual clouds for

Someday, I hope to see those mountains "in person".

in progress. Let's correct the assumptions (which, by the way, I
found very amusing. Cultural differences are grand.)
i am happy you were amused and that you realize that there are
Cultural differences and that According to you , mistaken assumptions

In my life, I have traveled to many countries (Thank you US Navy). If
you can't recognize and appreciate the differences in cultures, you
don't have much fun in foreign lands. I think one of the funniest
cultural "incidents" I was privy to was the British aviators in our
enlisted club insiting on being told where they could buy a fag. The
work has a vastly different definition in our country, and a near riot
ensued before someone could step up and explain the poor sap was
merely trying to buy a cigarette.

were made, this brings us back to the reason i showed your former
leter to my friends , in which you told me that You saw no reason for
me to be insulted . and you didn`t think people wrote in offensive
ways,,,,, CULTURAL differences ,,, apply both ways, don`t you agree ?

Yes, I do agree that cultural differences are not a one way street.

there are terms, words and figures of speech that are Very offensive
or painful or even abominational to other people, and after being told
about it, people could be a little more considerate about it, if

I have found in my experience, that if given the chance, most people
WILL be considerate about things that bother other people, but that
consideration often depends on the reaction received from the
"offended party". When the "offended party" launches their own
attack, things generally escalate from there. If ONE person can take
the "high ground", the dispute can and often does blow over quickly.

If they constantly bring up , the terms ,figures of speech that annoy
or are painful to the other person , whenever they can ,,,it means
they mean to harm, insult etc....

Or, it could mean that they simply have bad memories and didn't
remember. However, in this particular thread, I do believe that you
launched the first missile. Nobody had said ANYTHING when you
suddenly posted an attack BECAUSE nobody had said anything about an
incident in your country.

I wonder what the reaction would have been had the post not been an
attack against those who did not post about it, but an invitation to a
discussion on it, or merely a statement by you that you were grieved
over the incident and were in pain. Somehow, I think the reactions
would have been vastly different that what you did receive.

So my clever friends were right , that by telling you this , you might
stop for amoment and think ,, that YOU have to explain yourself more
clearly, elaborately. And as i see it theu prove my point and not

No, I don't. If someone does not clearly understand what I am saying,
all they have to do is ask for clarification. I long ago passed the
point in my life where I feel the need to be politically correct in
every statement I make, or to have to consider the plethora of
cultural, religious, personal, ethnic, racial, physical,
etc....differences in every statement I make. Take me as I am, don't
assume the worst, and ask for clarification if you don't understand.
If I inadvertently offend someone, a simple 'that hurt me' will
generate a prompt apology. I don't like hurting people.

I also long ago passed the point where it would bother me what people
thought of me in the context we are speaking of here. If someone does
not want to take the time or minimal effort to get to know me a little
before making judgements, that is their problem, not mine. As long as
I can look myself in the face in the mirror each morning, and my DH
doesn't change the locks on the doors, I'm doing ok.

yours , that people should think more of waht and how the present
their words here , or their terminology .

Or, as my mother used to say....."the world would be alot better if
people would just grow thicker skin".

please take this one step further and remeber that you also can`t tell
me , like you did in former letter , That You didnt see any insult in
the letters written ,,,, just like your faith , so your feelings of
being insulted are correct for you !!!!!you can`t presume that is the
only correct feeling.

No, I understand you were feeling insulted. However, I don't think
you were right in doing so. You launched the original attack, and
should not have been surprised when others responded in kind.

Again, if we had thicker skin, perhaps we could all get along better,
instead of taking insult at anything and everything.

A Christian Arab colleague : "That is a Catholic for sure "
Actually, 'Catholic Lite' as DH likes to call it. While I was
baptized into the Catholic church,
Well she saw through it ? didn`t she ? her raction ,,, ;"told you so

But, I am NOT a Catholic and have not been in over 30 years. I am an
Episcopalian. So, no, she did not see through it. A baptism at 5
years old does not a Catholic make at 48.

many of my friends are extremely confused by the many sectors ,
churches , etc,,,,, In Israel there are places where the different

LOL. Don't worry, many of us are too.

stuff ," with a "You know what THEY did to us in the Name THAT!!!"
Christmas has been a time when in many countries the priests preached
against the Jews and thus many a Progrom , or other beatings , robery
etc were done to the various Jewish communities . and many remember
that.

So, your friends will paint all Christians who celebrate Christmas
with the same brush? Without any attempt to learn or understand that
individual's tenets of faith? Perhaps the intolerance and prejudice
you decry also runs in two directions.

I hoped , that it will explain , that one should have more patience
and that many people like me, with backgrounds like mine, daily

And, I guess you have missed my point, but that very patience you are
requesting......well, in this particular thread, who fired that first
shot? Who came in with both barrels blazing on the attack and accused
those in this group of being intolerant because they *did not say
anything at all*.

You cannot accuse others for being intolerant and prejudiced because
they did not spontaneously post condolances to you and your country in
this group, and not expect some type of attack in return.

mean that i have to overlook Deliberate posts , that are meant to harm
and insult me and mine. it should show you that i am very well

And, again, I ask: Who threw the first insults in this particular
thread? Who posted a very angry message to all in this group and made
unpleasant accusations regarding character and motives, simply because
nobody had said a word about a subject? Honestly, with the post
below, what reaction were you expecting?

"I waited and hoped that somebody , on this Ng that are so quick to
attack me about everything pribvate and political ,will get up and say
some words against Terrorism .... nast Dirty terorism that kills
babies and maimes children on Purpose , because the suocider situated
himself in a group of young kids , on Purpose ,,,, an Imam a man
supposed to worship God ,,,, blew up kids ....
and where sare you all the people who denounce priests and flame
people for the smallest words , or attack me when we defend
outrselves... now where are you all the people who claim they are not
Anti Semite , why are you silent when Jewish kids are slaughtered,,
and don`t tell me we do it as well , because you have no clue what you
are talking about . Mourn the UN killed and wounded people who went to
bring peace in Iraq and lost their life to crazed terrorism , that
knows only one language Death Death and more death ,,, where are your
remarks ,, now ?? "

experienced in tracing , which are the insulting and which aren`t. I
respect your making whatever works you do , i will look at pics and
read descriptions, But i will not hold my mouth when people are making
deliberate Fun of my feelings.

Mirjim, with all due respect, re-read what you originally posted to
start this thread. Then ask exactly who's feelings were you
respecting when you posted it, and what reaction were we supposed to
give?

Listening goes in both directions......'course, one has to want to.
Yeah you are right , it is high time, Do you want to listen ?????

I have been. But, in my opinion, you came into this thread looking
for a fight. By the way, did you show your original post in this
thread to your friends and as their opinion of that one?


--
Deb
Works in Progress:
L&L "The Spirit of Christmas"
2002 Christmas Angel
Meg's Lacy Sampler Pouch
Marbek Nativity
Needlework Necessary

Yes, ever since Henry VII - but it`s really not much more than a courtesy
title these days. The real head of the C of E is the Archbishop of
Canterbury. Why Canterbury rather than London? Because Canterbury was the
seat of St. Augustine.

Pat P.

--
Do not worry about tomorrow`s troubles. Today has enough troubles of it`s
own.
"DebM" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 04:04:44 GMT, (Mirjam
Bruck-Cohen) wrote:

Isn`t the queen of England the Head of the Anglican Church ????

I don't think so. I believe that would be the Archbishop of
Canturbury, who is the "President" of the Anglican Council. The
Anglican Church is not restricted to England. I am a member of the
Episcopal Church of the United States, which is part of the Anglican
Church (at least for a few more months).



mirjam
Strange that. Since Judaism is a religion, not a race, where is the
land
owned solely by the Baptists, the Episcopalians, the Catholics, the
Buddhists - etc., etc., etc.?

Pat P.

--
Do not worry about tomorrow`s troubles. Today has enough troubles of
it`s
own.
"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
Laren i think I can sum Elizabeth ideas as Such:"No matter what
anybody says , The Israelies are always Wrong". And YES Elizabeth i do
Say and claim, that WE too have a right to a piece of land to call our
own !!!!! because if you do not recognize that , what are we exactly
talking about ????? To remindyou the UN itself recognized this right
!!!
mirjam


Laren wrote:

My point is it really shouldn't matter. Repeating the mistakes of
the
past will get us no where. Using the past as an excuse for modern
atrocities is just as bad.

Which is exactly what is problematic about those Israelis who claim
that
the world should somehow automatically recognize their claim to the
land
because they suffered so in the Holocaust. Even Mirjam continually
asks
if they "shouldn't be allowed our piece of land finally."

You can point to the suicide bombers as a modern atrocity and I will
agree, but so too is the situation of the many, many Palestians still
living in refugee camps, kept there by Arab and Israeli governments
alike.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to
illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*





--
Deb
Works in Progress:
L&L "The Spirit of Christmas"
2002 Christmas Angel
Meg's Lacy Sampler Pouch
Marbek Nativity
Needlework Necessary

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 22:26:28 -0600, "Dawne Peterson"
wrote:

Primate of the Anglican Church

a monkey runs the church? giggle
running for cover

Jenn L.
View My Webshots: http://community.webshots.com/user/jaliace
Current projects:
Chicago Skyline (The Needlecraftsman)
Lady of the Flag (Mirabilia)

The designer is Becky Waldrop. The collection is MarBek. Note the
capitalization in the collection name; given the designer's first name
is Becky, it is possible she once collaborated with someone else (Mary,
Martha, Margaret, Marisabel...) and they combined their names to make a
name for their collection. That is a common practice in this country in
an effort to come up with a unique company name that won't infringe on
some other company's trademarks. If this is something you feel you must
know, perhaps you should e-mail her and ask. Her address is available
from this site:
http://www.serendipitydesigns.com/Ma...oss_stitc.html

Mirjam Bruck-Cohen wrote:
A Jewish friend smiled and asked : Does she know what marbek means ??

Yes, I believe I do. However, in this case, it is also, apparently,
the designer's company Mar Bek.

the Plain Hebrew meaning is the place where animals are locked in to
be Fattened and stuffed with food to be slaughtered .
Tht is why we smile uneasily when we see all this posts about making
the marbek etc....obviously the maker took a term from the Tanach =
Bible without realizing it`s meaning .

--
Brenda Lewis
WIP: ...on hiatus...