Ot i wanted for once to see

Oh yes Lucille ,,, LeShana HaBaa`a BeJerushalyiem haBenuya
Next year in rebuilt Jerusalem ///////a 2000 year old prayer. some
Jews never left, all the 2000 years jews returned to israel, I have a
250 year old book that belonged to some family of my mother same
prayer appears there 250 years Ago ,,,,,,
way before the holocaust , which only strengthend the need to go back
to our country , our origin.
mirjam
if they "shouldn't be allowed our piece of land finally."

Elizabeth

Why are you so sure that the Israelis claim that Israel should exist because
of the holocaust.

I said "some Israelis" and I didn't say that they claim Israel should
exist because of the holocaust. I said they claim that the rest of the
world should recognize it's right to exist because of the holocaust.
I've seem Mirjam say that right here on this group.

I remember when I was a very little girl (and I was born
in 1936) my very religious grandmother repeating almost like a mantra "Next
year in Jerusalem." If I'm not mistaken that statement has been a part of
Jewish ritual forever. I'm too tired to look it up now to find out more
exact information, but I know it's been said forever by religious Jews so
the idea of Israel being a Jewish state really has nothing to do with the
holocaust except that it made the people more militant and more sure that
that's where they were going to go and there would be a Jewish homeland at
all costs.

That was my point. Those "all costs" include the current situtation of
the Palestinians.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

My maternal grandparents, my mother`s sisters, her aunts, uncles ,
cousins, my Father`s grandmother and his aunt and uncle , and Whole
family of my step father didn`t terrorize the Germans , they were
murdered in a pre planned mass murder.

So were most of my cousins and they weren't Jewish. In fact I have the same
genetic condition for which they were killed. When a co-worker of mine was
forced out of his job because of this condition I asked a Jewish co-worker why
he stood by and didn't defend him. David didn't know I had they same condidtion
when remided that the Holocaust started by killing people like our former
co-worker he said " Well Hitler did something right"

Hitler and company killed upwards of 20
million and planned on killing 50 or so million more if the war hadn't ended
when it did.

The Nazis won the war as I live in fear every day in America.

Pat Porter wrote:
Strange that. Since Judaism is a religion, not a race, where is the land
owned solely by the Baptists, the Episcopalians, the Catholics, the
Buddhists - etc., etc., etc.?

Judaism is a religion AND a nationality, Pat. One can be Jewish without
being religious, just as one can be Irish without being religious.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

And there are some experts that still believe all Jews (except of course
those that converted to Judaism) are descended from the original 12 tribes
and are a race as well as a religion. I have no idea whether or not that's
true but it is another theory. And I can personally attest to the fact
that there are genetic defects that are exclusive to Jewish people and when
investigations were done they found that as far as they could tell there was
no intermarriage in the family. In other words no one that wasn't Jewish by
birth on either the father or mother's side of the family. Of course it's
very difficult to do any kind of genealogical study for the obvious reasons.
What I'm trying to say is that it is possible that Judaism is a race..
Lucille


"Dr. Brat" wrote in message
...
Pat Porter wrote:
Strange that. Since Judaism is a religion, not a race, where is the
land
owned solely by the Baptists, the Episcopalians, the Catholics, the
Buddhists - etc., etc., etc.?

Judaism is a religion AND a nationality, Pat. One can be Jewish without
being religious, just as one can be Irish without being religious.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

From: "Dr. Brat"

Judaism is a religion AND a nationality, Pat. One can be Jewish without
being religious, just as one can be Irish without being religious.

HMMM -- I honestly don't think that the term "Jewish" is used to denote a
nationality. The people who live in Israel are Iraelis -- some are of the
Jewish faith, some are of other faiths. Not wanting to start a flame within a
flame, OK :-)). This is what I was told by several Jewish co-workers and one
of my Intercultural Communication Professors at University CiaoMeow ^;;^
..



PAX, Tia Mary ^;;^
Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their
WHISKERS!!
Nothing is complete without a few cat hairs!

As the prayer goes Next year in rebuilt Jerushalayiem ,,,,,Inmeans the
rebuilding of the City the dwellings, life there , not the Temple
.....as such ,,,,,
mirjam

If my memory serves me correctly, and I haven't thought about any of this
for many years, your explanation is correct. Perhaps Mirjam, or someone who
knows this kind of thing, can confirm this.

And another reminder...this was said way before the holocaust. I know
Jerusalem was my grandmother's dream place.

Lucllle

"Dawne Peterson" wrote in message
...
I am sure someone knows this better than me, but isn't the phrase "next
year in Jerusalem" related to the destruction of the temple, and the
centuries old wish of the Jewish people to be able to rebuild it, and
celebrate their holy days there??
Dawne

Isn`t the queen of England the Head of the Anglican Church ????
mirjam
Strange that. Since Judaism is a religion, not a race, where is the land
owned solely by the Baptists, the Episcopalians, the Catholics, the
Buddhists - etc., etc., etc.?

Pat P.

--
Do not worry about tomorrow`s troubles. Today has enough troubles of it`s
own.
"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message
...
Laren i think I can sum Elizabeth ideas as Such:"No matter what
anybody says , The Israelies are always Wrong". And YES Elizabeth i do
Say and claim, that WE too have a right to a piece of land to call our
own !!!!! because if you do not recognize that , what are we exactly
talking about ????? To remindyou the UN itself recognized this right
!!!
mirjam


Laren wrote:

My point is it really shouldn't matter. Repeating the mistakes of the
past will get us no where. Using the past as an excuse for modern
atrocities is just as bad.

Which is exactly what is problematic about those Israelis who claim that
the world should somehow automatically recognize their claim to the land
because they suffered so in the Holocaust. Even Mirjam continually asks
if they "shouldn't be allowed our piece of land finally."

You can point to the suicide bombers as a modern atrocity and I will
agree, but so too is the situation of the many, many Palestians still
living in refugee camps, kept there by Arab and Israeli governments
alike.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Good Morning , just looked eastwards towards the slopes of the lower
gallilee moutains , [ where Natzeret is] , Very unusual clouds for
this time of year , let`s wish for lots of rain this winter
Ok, let's look at the responses. I've read them, and you know what?
They prove my point. Taking words in print, without taking other
factors into context, mistaken assumptions were made about those works
in progress. Let's correct the assumptions (which, by the way, I
found very amusing. Cultural differences are grand.)
i am happy you were amused and that you realize that there are
Cultural differences and that According to you , mistaken assumptions
were made, this brings us back to the reason i showed your former
leter to my friends , in which you told me that You saw no reason for
me to be insulted . and you didn`t think people wrote in offensive
ways,,,,, CULTURAL differences ,,, apply both ways, don`t you agree ?
there are terms, words and figures of speech that are Very offensive
or painful or even abominational to other people, and after being told
about it, people could be a little more considerate about it, if
indeed they intend to have a fruitful international discussion.
If they constantly bring up , the terms ,figures of speech that annoy
or are painful to the other person , whenever they can ,,,it means
they mean to harm, insult etc....
So my clever friends were right , that by telling you this , you might
stop for amoment and think ,, that YOU have to explain yourself more
clearly, elaborately. And as i see it theu prove my point and not
yours , that people should think more of waht and how the present
their words here , or their terminology .
LOL. While many of the fundamentals of our various faiths are vastly
different, when you get right down to it, Muslims, Jews and Christians
all worship the same God. While I believe that my faith is correct
for me, I cannot presume to take as "fact" that it is the only correct
one.
BRAVO !!!! very well written. thank you .
please take this one step further and remeber that you also can`t tell
me , like you did in former letter , That You didnt see any insult in
the letters written ,,,, just like your faith , so your feelings of
being insulted are correct for you !!!!!you can`t presume that is the
only correct feeling.
A Christian Arab colleague : "That is a Catholic for sure "
Actually, 'Catholic Lite' as DH likes to call it. While I was
baptized into the Catholic church,
Well she saw through it ? didn`t she ? her raction ,,, ;"told you so
!!!" she is of the Greek Church .
I left it decades ago. I am an
Episcopalian. We have the liturgy, but don't believe the Pope (or our
own church leaders) are infallible.
many of my friends are extremely confused by the many sectors ,
churches , etc,,,,, In Israel there are places where the different
churcheshave different praying hours , regulated aftter the Kushta
meetings in 18th cent and guarded since than jelously ever since than.
A Jewish friend smiled and asked : Does she know what marbek means ??

Yes, I believe I do. However, in this case, it is also, apparently,
the designer's company Mar Bek.
the Plain Hebrew meaning is the place where animals are locked in to
be Fattened and stuffed with food to be slaughtered .
Tht is why we smile uneasily when we see all this posts about making
the marbek etc....obviously the maker took a term from the Tanach =
Bible without realizing it`s meaning .
stuff ," with a "You know what THEY did to us in the Name THAT!!!"
Christmas has been a time when in many countries the priests preached
against the Jews and thus many a Progrom , or other beatings , robery
etc were done to the various Jewish communities . and many remember
that.
???? I'm confused about this response. It's a Santa that my DDIL
liked, that I am doing for her.

i hope this will show you something

It did, that, as I said, people will take the written word, and will
project their own opinion of what they THINK is meant and translate it
into "That must be what was meant".
I hoped , that it will explain , that one should have more patience
and that many people like me, with backgrounds like mine, daily
overlook a lot of posts , that are not easy for us, but this doesn`t
mean that i have to overlook Deliberate posts , that are meant to harm
and insult me and mine. it should show you that i am very well
experienced in tracing , which are the insulting and which aren`t. I
respect your making whatever works you do , i will look at pics and
read descriptions, But i will not hold my mouth when people are making
deliberate Fun of my feelings.
Listening goes in both directions......'course, one has to want to.
Yeah you are right , it is high time, Do you want to listen ?????
mirjam


mirjam
--
Deb
Works in Progress:
L&L "The Spirit of Christmas"
2002 Christmas Angel
Meg's Lacy Sampler Pouch
Marbek Nativity
Needlework Necessary

--
Deb
Works in Progress:
L&L "The Spirit of Christmas"
2002 Christmas Angel
Meg's Lacy Sampler Pouch
Marbek Nativity
Needlework Necessary

Caam could yoiu please explain to me i if yiu prefeere privately it
is ok !!] what you mean by a Genetic condition ?
As to a co-Worker not deffending your fired out of job co-worker ,
remaking such a horrid remark , this is his private stupidity , and
shouldn`t apply to all of us.
You should confront him and tell him he was wrong .
So were most of my cousins and they weren't Jewish. In fact I have the same
genetic condition for which they were killed. When a co-worker of mine was
forced out of his job because of this condition I asked a Jewish co-worker why
he stood by and didn't defend him. David didn't know I had they same condidtion
when remided that the Holocaust started by killing people like our former
co-worker he said " Well Hitler did something right"

Hitler and company killed upwards of 20
million and planned on killing 50 or so million more if the war hadn't ended
when it did.
nobody denies that ?
The Nazis won the war as I live in fear every day in America.
Could you elaborate on this ????
mirjam

Hebrew is the ancient name of the Jews , and it is parallel . so what
do you mean by that statement ?
Instead of looking at it as a Jewish issue, it is probably more
accurate to look at it as the Hebrew people wanting a place of their
own. It is probable that most Hebrews are Jewish, and it is fact that
Israel is the ancestral home of the Hebrew people. That they want to
be able to settle and hold that ancestral home is understandable.
The sons of King Shlomo divided the country into 2 , Israel +Jehuda
The tribes of Israel were dispersed bt the persians, and many joined
the tribes of Jehudah , and later many retyrned from Babylon [ Iraq]
to join Jehuda, Which was later conquered by the Romans . Thus most
Hebrew/Jewish people are off spring of this part.
-----------
The name Palestine was local made up by the Romans who wanted to cut
the chord between the people of Judah and the land , On their Coins
the Romans printed JUDEA Capta , not Palestine Capta !!!
The Arab population that now calls them selvesxPalestinians have
nothing to do with the ancient biblical Greek Invaders = Polshiem =
Plieshtiem [ from which the name palestine derived] They are all
rather new invaders who came in from the desert[s] over the years .
and like many others mingled , with others in comers.

However, it is also the ancestral home of the Palestinians, and as
such, the conflict arises.....both want it, both have the belief that
they have the claim to it, and both can't figure out how to peacefully
resolve it and just get along.


--
Deb
Works in Progress:
L&L "The Spirit of Christmas"
2002 Christmas Angel
Meg's Lacy Sampler Pouch
Marbek Nativity
Needlework Necessary