Calling Clothing Historians

Someone posted that she wore pants, not skirts and dresses - Juno? It
got me to thinking. Thought you smelled wood burning, didn't you? ;-)

Men in trousers and women in dresses seems contrary to anatomy. If I am
recalling correctly, it is also a relatively new way of dressing. Greek
and Roman men didn't wear trousers. Egyptians, either. Seems that they
wore skirts, kilts, robes, or some other such garment. Not just in
Western Civ., either. In Asia, men wore various garments, but not
trousers. I think leg wrapping came in when Europe was being conquered,
perhaps because of the cold weather? Or the wooded terrain? Even
today, men in kilts is not unusual. Some churches have men in robes of
various kinds. Women in Asia wear pants in some cultures. The salwar
kameez suit comes to mind. As do "harem pants."

Do we have an historian on board who can shed some light on the history
of "modern dress"? Where did we go wrong and why? Men in trousers
fussing with their fiddly bits, and women in dresses must have an
interesting past.
--

Joanne @ stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us
http://bernardschopen.tripod.com/
Life is about the journey, not about the destination.

Pogonip wrote:
Do we have an historian on board who can shed some light on the history
of "modern dress"? Where did we go wrong and why? Men in trousers
fussing with their fiddly bits, and women in dresses must have an
interesting past.

Well, part of it is easy, and comes from whether a particular society
was an agrarian or hunter-gatherer one.

Hunter-gatherer societies make most of their clothing from skins - and
anyone who has ever sew with leather knows that you get lots of smallish
odd-shaped pieces. Logically, you sew them together to fit your body.
You end up with close-fitting garments. Even when you get cloth traded
in, you go on making the same kind of stuff you are used to wearing.

Contrary to this, weaving textiles is a loooooooong and laborious
process. After you have spent all that time putting together a piece of
fabric, the last thing you want to do is CUT it! So you drape it, seam
it, pin it, and do other stuff to it, and you get robes, chitons,
kimono, and other stuff like that, worn by both sexes.

Not as sure about some of the later developments, as they are pretty
culturally and religiously specific - about what is and is not
appropriate for the genders. The "no trosers for women" seems (at a
wild guess) to be more common in Christianized societies, where people
got really hung up on men and women dressing differently - because God
said it, you know? {Apparently, the Hindus and Muslims weren't
listening hard enought ;-) }

I DO know one little tidbit about women not wearing "pants". Women did
not even wear underwear beneath their skirts until comparatively late in
history. This is not just for convenience (just squat where you are to
pee) but for hygeine. Remember, the garments next to your skin weren't
washed too often. Neither were you. So you needed to...er..ventillate
the area. Wearing cloth that trapped moisture there was just ASKING for
trouble. (can we say "raging yeast infection" boys and girls?)
--
------------------------------------------------------
Wendy Z Chicago, IL (Moo)
Wench Wear Costumes http://pages.ripco.net/~zski
Minstrosity www.minstrosity.com
Wench #525 AIM=wendylady525
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wendyzski/
"Though she be but little, she is fierce"
"It's the little ones you have to watch out for..."
"I'm not short - I'm concentrated"
--------------------------------------------------------

Dear Wendy,

The Iceman (Oetzie) wore trousers, as did the Bog People, both older
than the Greeks and Romans. But your reasoning about woven cloth is
quite good. They had no needles fine enough to sew the fine cloth.
And it "wore" better, because each day the pieces would be draped a
little different.

The Romans and Greeks (at least the upper classes) had running water
and public baths. Some even had flush toilets!!! It was the Europeans
and later the Americans who didn't bathe or have water systems.

Underwear for women became popular in the 1820s, and was made of fine
linen or cotton. The first versions were made to show below the
skirts, and did little to cover or protect the private parts. In fact,
pantaloons were no more than two leg tubes held together by a
waistband. I have read, but never seen in a historic collection, that
some women of the Regency period wore tubes tied to their knees so it
looked like they were wearing the new-fangled pantaloons.

Teri

zski wrote:
Pogonip wrote:

Do we have an historian on board who can shed some light on the
history of "modern dress"? Where did we go wrong and why? Men in
trousers fussing with their fiddly bits, and women in dresses must
have an interesting past.


Well, part of it is easy, and comes from whether a particular society
was an agrarian or hunter-gatherer one.

Hunter-gatherer societies make most of their clothing from skins - and
anyone who has ever sew with leather knows that you get lots of smallish
odd-shaped pieces. Logically, you sew them together to fit your body.
You end up with close-fitting garments. Even when you get cloth traded
in, you go on making the same kind of stuff you are used to wearing.

Contrary to this, weaving textiles is a loooooooong and laborious
process. After you have spent all that time putting together a piece of
fabric, the last thing you want to do is CUT it! So you drape it, seam
it, pin it, and do other stuff to it, and you get robes, chitons,
kimono, and other stuff like that, worn by both sexes.

When were scissors invented? Imagine trying to cut woven fabric with a
knife -- even with the new rotary cutters, curves are difficult to
impossible, and they're probably finer and sharper than the old knives.
--

Joanne @ stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us
http://bernardschopen.tripod.com/
Life is about the journey, not about the destination.

wrote:
Dear Wendy,

The Iceman (Oetzie) wore trousers, as did the Bog People, both older
than the Greeks and Romans. But your reasoning about woven cloth is
quite good. They had no needles fine enough to sew the fine cloth.
And it "wore" better, because each day the pieces would be draped a
little different.

The Romans and Greeks (at least the upper classes) had running water
and public baths. Some even had flush toilets!!! It was the Europeans
and later the Americans who didn't bathe or have water systems.

Underwear for women became popular in the 1820s, and was made of fine
linen or cotton. The first versions were made to show below the
skirts, and did little to cover or protect the private parts. In fact,
pantaloons were no more than two leg tubes held together by a
waistband. I have read, but never seen in a historic collection, that
some women of the Regency period wore tubes tied to their knees so it
looked like they were wearing the new-fangled pantaloons.

Teri


The Iceman and the Bog people who wore trousers - were they animal skins?

As for running water, the natives in Mexico also had it, and bathing was
common and frequent there and in the more northern areas. What was it
about the Europeans and their aversion to water? No wonder they
invented perfumes!
--

Joanne @ stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us
http://bernardschopen.tripod.com/
Life is about the journey, not about the destination.

Pogonip wrote:


As for running water, the natives in Mexico also had it, and bathing
was common and frequent there and in the more northern areas. What
was it about the Europeans and their aversion to water? No wonder
they invented perfumes!


I found this link:
http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/herbs/baths.html
A history of bathing before 1601 that is pretty interesting.

The Bog People and Oetzie all wore garments of leather. The pictures
in my books show coifs on the men and women Bog People; there is a
detailed description of Oetzie's clothing on one of the websites
(haven't used it for two years; forget the url). The leggings were
leather; the shoes were woven straw, stuffed with more straw; the hat
was bearskin and sewn crudely to fit close to the head.

I have a pair of replica scissors from the eighteenth or nineteenth
century. They would have been forged by an ironmonger, then sharpened.
They cut quite well, but dull quickly. I don't know how much earlier
scissors were "born," but I'm thinking Renaissance, because of the
elaborate pieces of clothing worn. A machine for making silk stockings
dates to Elizabethan times.

Something about taking off all of one's clothing and getting wet, I
think were the reasons for not bathing more often. They thought it
would help one get pneumonia or other diseases.

Teri

wrote:
The Bog People and Oetzie all wore garments of leather. The pictures
in my books show coifs on the men and women Bog People; there is a
detailed description of Oetzie's clothing on one of the websites
(haven't used it for two years; forget the url). The leggings were
leather; the shoes were woven straw, stuffed with more straw; the hat
was bearskin and sewn crudely to fit close to the head.

I have a pair of replica scissors from the eighteenth or nineteenth
century. They would have been forged by an ironmonger, then sharpened.
They cut quite well, but dull quickly. I don't know how much earlier
scissors were "born," but I'm thinking Renaissance, because of the
elaborate pieces of clothing worn. A machine for making silk stockings
dates to Elizabethan times.

Something about taking off all of one's clothing and getting wet, I
think were the reasons for not bathing more often. They thought it
would help one get pneumonia or other diseases.

Teri


IIRC, the Egyptians and the Quechua (Peru) knitted. For footwear and
mittens/gloves, perhaps headgear. Only fragments survive, and it's
uncertain exactly how some textiles were done, and some were so fine
that even with today's machinery, we can't duplicate it. Interesting.

Also interesting is that history of bathing Penny posted. Although I
wonder sometimes if the word "bath" didn't have a wider meaning, since
using dirt or sand is included for the Moslem tribes, and the others
mention a lot of greasy substances. Plus, of course, a steam bath or a
sauna, while invigorating, doesn't do much to clean the person.

Scissors were one of those inventions that I suspect opened up a whole
new world of possibilities. I would guess they were originally made of
a softer metal, and wouldn't hold an edge for terribly long.
--

Joanne @ stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us
http://bernardschopen.tripod.com/
Life is about the journey, not about the destination.

"Pogonip" wrote in message
...
wrote:
The Bog People and Oetzie all wore garments of leather. The pictures
in my books show coifs on the men and women Bog People; there is a
detailed description of Oetzie's clothing on one of the websites
(haven't used it for two years; forget the url). The leggings were
leather; the shoes were woven straw, stuffed with more straw; the hat
was bearskin and sewn crudely to fit close to the head.

IIRC, the Egyptians and the Quechua (Peru) knitted. For footwear and
mittens/gloves, perhaps headgear. Only fragments survive, and it's
uncertain exactly how some textiles were done, and some were so fine
that even with today's machinery, we can't duplicate it. Interesting.

In Mammoth Cave, Kentucky, slippers woven of vegetable fibers have been
found, dating to about 4000 years ago.

Jean M.

Jean D Mahavier wrote:
"Pogonip" wrote in message
...

wrote:

The Bog People and Oetzie all wore garments of leather. The pictures
in my books show coifs on the men and women Bog People; there is a
detailed description of Oetzie's clothing on one of the websites
(haven't used it for two years; forget the url). The leggings were
leather; the shoes were woven straw, stuffed with more straw; the hat
was bearskin and sewn crudely to fit close to the head.

IIRC, the Egyptians and the Quechua (Peru) knitted. For footwear and
mittens/gloves, perhaps headgear. Only fragments survive, and it's
uncertain exactly how some textiles were done, and some were so fine
that even with today's machinery, we can't duplicate it. Interesting.


In Mammoth Cave, Kentucky, slippers woven of vegetable fibers have been
found, dating to about 4000 years ago.

Jean M.



That is very cool! Wonder who the makers were, or have other
discoveries been made that fill in the history?

--

Joanne @ stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us
http://bernardschopen.tripod.com/
Life is about the journey, not about the destination.