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The Voices in my Head



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 26th 03, 06:49 PM
Tante Lina
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Default The Voices in my Head

Kathy N-V wrote in message
...

It's sad to hear you had that experience. I completely understand where
you're coming from - deep down, the child in you wonders, if my family can't
love me, who can? You can give yourself the love they can't give, pat
yourself on the back for building a good relationship with your daughter,
and realize it's not your fault if it still hurts sometimes.

But you also have some secret weapons. You're intelligent and you have a
deeper understanding. Your parents' reactions to you, on the other hand,
are to a great extent unthinking, automatic, maybe more of a reaction to
things *their* parents said than to you. This gives you more power than you
might think, in terms of the ongoing problem.

If your parents tend to repeat the same insults time and again, you have the
advantage. You actually know what they're going to say in advance! This
means you can role play with yourself or someone else and plan the way
you're going to react the next time they say that same old thing.

My father was always asking about my plans, then using whatever answer I
gave to launch into a lecture about my insufficiencies and how I ought to go
about things. I role played this with my SO, so that the next time he did
it, I was able to respond with, "Wow, it sounds as if you know a lot about
this, Dad. You should consider doing it yourself." For once, he was
speechless - my stepmother had to finish out the conversation. He was
completely taken aback that I defended myself. He didn't try that again for
*years*.

It doesn't fix the past, but it can be very healing to know *you have the
power to stop them from hurting you in the here and now*. This seems
simple, but we don't do it, because the child in us is always hoping that
mom and dad will give us that unconditional love - is always shocked when
they don't.

HTH,
* TL *

Ads
  #2  
Old July 26th 03, 09:57 PM
Tante Lina
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Default

Lee S. Billings wrote in message ...

My father had a habit of asking "no-win questions" (you know, the "have you
stopped beating your wife?" kind). But he wasn't very good at it, and if

you
ignored all the innuendos, they came out sounding like something a

3-year-old
might ask *seriously*. My ex, who worked with 3-year-olds, took to

answering
them the same way he'd have done with one of the kids in his class. It took
several months, but eventually my father completely *stopped* using that
tactic!


Nice to have someone know exactly how to stick up for you!

* TL *

  #3  
Old July 27th 03, 02:28 AM
Diana Curtis
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Default

I was going to snip parts but ...again.. its all to good to.

What I would like to know is how to deal with the unspoken dissappointment
that comes off my father in waves. He never *says* anything unkind to my
face, but you can tell. For instance, when I brought DH, then my fiancee, to
my brother's house my father showed up while Mike and I were on the deck. My
father saw us on the deck together and sadly shook his head. I didnt see
this.. it was Mike who let me know. I proudly introduced Mike to my dad (
not knowing of this rudness on dads part)
I should add that I don't see my father, unless my brother has invited us
both to the same function. That hasnt happened in over 5 years. Its to hard
to deal with his crushing dissappointment.
His loss. Most of the time I think Im pretty neat. There are even those
people who are not family members who agree!
Diana


--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44

"Tante Lina" wrote in message
k.net...
Kathy N-V wrote in message
...

It's sad to hear you had that experience. I completely understand where
you're coming from - deep down, the child in you wonders, if my family

can't
love me, who can? You can give yourself the love they can't give, pat
yourself on the back for building a good relationship with your daughter,
and realize it's not your fault if it still hurts sometimes.

But you also have some secret weapons. You're intelligent and you have a
deeper understanding. Your parents' reactions to you, on the other hand,
are to a great extent unthinking, automatic, maybe more of a reaction to
things *their* parents said than to you. This gives you more power than

you
might think, in terms of the ongoing problem.

If your parents tend to repeat the same insults time and again, you have

the
advantage. You actually know what they're going to say in advance! This
means you can role play with yourself or someone else and plan the way
you're going to react the next time they say that same old thing.

My father was always asking about my plans, then using whatever answer I
gave to launch into a lecture about my insufficiencies and how I ought to

go
about things. I role played this with my SO, so that the next time he did
it, I was able to respond with, "Wow, it sounds as if you know a lot about
this, Dad. You should consider doing it yourself." For once, he was
speechless - my stepmother had to finish out the conversation. He was
completely taken aback that I defended myself. He didn't try that again

for
*years*.

It doesn't fix the past, but it can be very healing to know *you have the
power to stop them from hurting you in the here and now*. This seems
simple, but we don't do it, because the child in us is always hoping that
mom and dad will give us that unconditional love - is always shocked when
they don't.

HTH,
* TL *



  #4  
Old July 27th 03, 04:01 AM
Kandice Seeber
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Default

Wow - good for you!! I feel kind of sorry for your parents - they obviously
have not taken the time or energy to get to know the real you. You're a
gem, Kathy - and I am happy that your DD, DH and a million other people get
to see that.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

No, not those kind of voices!

When I was growing up, there wasn't a day I wasn't told I was nasty, ugly

and
totally unlikeable. It seemed to be on a low level soundtrack to

everything
I did, and for a very long time, I believed it all. If someone treated me
badly, I automatically assumed it was my fault. No matter what I achieved,

it
wasn't because I had done well or worked hard, it was merely a fluke.

As I've aged, I have learned to ignore the soundtrack, and most of the

time I
like myself. I had even more or less forgotten where my bad opinion of

myself
came from.

Until today. My father called to say goodbye to DD, before she left for
Germany. DD told her Grampy that she was going to miss me, "because my

Mom
is so great, and I really wanted her to come with us."

Grampy laughed at her and told her she was nuts. DD was incensed and
defended me ferociously. Things got uncomfortable for a moment, and Dad
punted, giving the phone to his wife, who is a total sweetheart.

Later, we took my baby and my mother to the airport. I went up to the
counter to check them in, and the poor woman behind the counter winced as

she
picked up my mother's luggage (which I think was filled with rocks). I
asked, and she confided that she had wrenched her shoulder and that

lifting
luggage all day wasn't helping. Because I am a mom, I always have Advil

in
my purse, and offered her some. The counter agent accepted and was

totally
grateful.

Afterward, my mother asked my why I offered the woman an Advil. "Was it

so
she would upgrade us to first class?" she inquired. (I've always gotten _a
lot_ of first class upgrades, and my mom always thinks that there's some
trick to it.)

Of course not. I offered because I saw a need, not because I want

something.
Mom was dumbfounded, "But you're not like that!" she blurted out.

DH, DD and I all looked at her like she had three heads. "Actually, I

_am_
like that. Despite what you think, I'm a nice person." I answered

quietly.
DH and DD nodded in agreement, and my mother backed down.

On the ride home, DH and I talked about the encounters with my parents,

and
how they see me. I've always been cast in the role of nasty bitch, and I
refuse to accept that role. I'm not like that, and was probably never like
that. Childhood arguments with my siblings were just that, and not some

sign
that I have a deeply flawed personality.

DH listened to my angst filled ramblings and said, "Think about it. Two
people in the world think you're a jerk, and everyone else loves you. Are
you going to believe the rest of the world or just those two?"

I concede that it's probably a few more than just two people who think I'm

a
jerk, but I choose to believe the rest of the world. I think I've finally
made those insecure voices to finally shut up. Forever.

Kathy N-V

Obligatory Bead Reference: I'm so glad that you guys coerced and insisted
that I start taking pictures of my work. Almost everything I've made
recently is in DD's suitcase, on its way to Germany, and I'm so happy I

have
some record of the things I made. I might even make a few duplicate

pieces
(gasp!) for myself.



  #5  
Old July 27th 03, 09:25 AM
Tante Lina
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Diana Curtis wrote in message ...
I was going to snip parts but ...again.. its all to good to.

What I would like to know is how to deal with the unspoken dissappointment
that comes off my father in waves. He never *says* anything unkind to my
face, but you can tell. For instance, when I brought DH, then my fiancee,

to
my brother's house my father showed up while Mike and I were on the deck.

My
father saw us on the deck together and sadly shook his head. I didnt see
this.. it was Mike who let me know. I proudly introduced Mike to my dad (
not knowing of this rudness on dads part)
I should add that I don't see my father, unless my brother has invited us
both to the same function. That hasnt happened in over 5 years. Its to

hard
to deal with his crushing dissappointment.
His loss. Most of the time I think Im pretty neat. There are even those
people who are not family members who agree!


Oh I'm sure you are neat!

What are his circumstances? Sounds like there was a divorce in the past?
Did he miss seeing you grow up? Is he happy with his accomplishments in
life?

* TL *

  #6  
Old July 27th 03, 02:23 PM
Diana Curtis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I
can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the
veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat respectfully
was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my
childhood...and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts and
ideas.
I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life
at a more lucrative job.
My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older
brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just
couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge
dissappointment to him.
I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected
by it. What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew? Unproductive.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Diana

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44

"Tante Lina" wrote in message
k.net...
Most of the time I think Im pretty neat. There are even those
people who are not family members who agree!


Oh I'm sure you are neat!

What are his circumstances? Sounds like there was a divorce in the past?
Did he miss seeing you grow up? Is he happy with his accomplishments in
life?

* TL *



  #7  
Old July 27th 03, 04:08 PM
laura
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Diana Curtis" wrote in message
...
Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I
can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the
veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat

respectfully
was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my
childhood...and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts

and
ideas.
I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life
at a more lucrative job.
My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older
brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just
couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge
dissappointment to him.


(This is inspired by Diana's post, but much of this could be said in
response to what Kathy wrote as well):

I'd be willing to bet that your dad isn't so much disappointed in *you* as
he is in himself. Because you're his daughter (and perhaps because this is
his tendency as part of his personality) he sees you as a part of himself.
He can't reconcile the good person that you are with his inner image of
himself as a disappointment to himself and others-- perhaps his own parents.
But since he can't bear the pain of being such a disappointment to himself,
he projects that out on to you and your brother.

I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he

would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be

affected
by it.


There is absolutely no way you can please someone like this. The vision
your dad has of you is not grounded in your reality but is colored by his
own filters. This actually has nothing to do with you, and everything to do
with him, and he's the only one who could possibly do anything to change
it-- and of course you know this already.

What I would like it to stop stewing about it.


Maybe you could start by really working to develop a gut level understanding
that the problem is not yours to "fix". It is so hard to let go of things
like this-- I know that this is far easier said than done, but this is a
problem that undoubtely existed for your father long before you came into
the world. Having kids just gave him a place to put some of the blame for
things that he didn't know how to fix and that you had nothing to do with.

What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok.


I bet lots of us who grew up in dysfunctional homes feel the same way about
our parents. I think that in many families the roles are cast while the
children are still very, very young and the family dynamic revolves around
that casting. That we don't always fit the role that was handed us can
create a lot of confusion and tension until we realize real autonomy and
stop worrying and guilting about the disconnect between who we actually are
and the roles our families cast us in.

Learning to have confidence in yourself as a good person when you've grown
up like this is a big deal, and it sounds like you're doing exactly that.

Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew?


Because there's a part of you that still feels like the little girl that
couldn't do anything right to please dad?

Unproductive.


But it isn't a bad thing to acknowledge, explore and express these feelings
and thoughts. That's very healthy and productive.

Thanks for letting me vent.


Venting is very good for us

Laura



  #8  
Old July 27th 03, 05:23 PM
Lee S. Billings
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
says...

I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected
by it. What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew? Unproductive.


If you have the time and the money, you might find it helpful to get some
short-term counseling about this. A trained professional may be able to offer
perspectives and solutions that even the most well-intentioned friend can't.
Beyond that, it sounds as though you're doing reasonably well on your own.
You've removed yourself from the source of the discomfort, and are
concentrating on what you KNOW to be true rather than what the tapes are
telling you.

One technique which some people find helpful when dealing with old tapes is
"direct substitution". Every time you catch yourself thinking thoughts which
come from the old tape, replace those thoughts with something else. Instead of
thinking, "I'm such a disappointment to my father," think, "I'm a good person,
I've accomplished a lot with my life, and I'm not responsible for my father's
problems." Say it out loud, if necessary. Over time, you can actually rewrite
the tape -- but it won't happen in a month, maybe not even in a year. You just
keep doing it, and eventually you'll find yourself more likely to think *your*
thoughts than the taped ones. It's like breaking any other habit.

Celine

--
Handmade jewelry at
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_

  #9  
Old July 27th 03, 07:19 PM
Tante Lina
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Default

Diana Curtis wrote in message ...
Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I
can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the
veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat

respectfully
was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my
childhood...


This would explain why he would not like seeing you with another man.

and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts and ideas.


So I'm still trying to understand - at one time, he did express his
disapproval? Then, at some point, he stopped saying it, but the body
language is still there? Do you remember what happened at the time he
stopped verbalizing it? Was it at the time of the divorce? At a certain
age? After a blowup / estrangement with one of your siblings?

I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life
at a more lucrative job.
My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older
brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just
couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge
disappointment to him.


The one thought that came to my mind when I first read this, was the same as
Lee's: he's disappointed in himself, and this is the way he deals with it.

I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he

would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be affected
by it.


Even though your first job is to protect yourself, I would not rule out a
miracle for two reasons.

The book Passages describes how after midlife, men start to explore their
feminine side, women start to explore their masculine side. So for
instance, many women start successful businesses in the second half of their
lives. Men often get very wrapped up in their grandkids.
Although, at some time long ago, his emotional development was arrested, as
he gets older there is going to be a natural pull toward family.

Also, as people age, they begin to experience the deaths of friends,
colleagues, and loved ones. Eventually this leads them to confront the
possibility of their own life's end. It's a natural desire to want to make
peace with one's past while there's still time.

These impulses may be stirring in your father, however weakly.

I say this because I had a similar problem with my father. Although I
"solved" it by removing myself from him, and stopping him from saying the
things that hurt me, I now wish I had occasionally had it out with him - to
express my side of the story, if nothing else. He died unexpectedly at a
relatively young age, and now I will never get the chance to say my peace -
whatever his reaction.

I agree with Celine, working with a counselor would help you draft that
letter you need to write him - to get it out there while he's still living.
Whether he changes or not, you will feel better. And there's the million to
one chance he might surprise you. Sometimes we have to be content with
planting a seed.

What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew? Unproductive.


Have you ever read the book "Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller? I
think it would be very cathartic for you to read, and Kathy too. It's about
how damaged parents have children not to love, but to be loved. How they
put their children in the position of parenting their parents, and how this
gets passed down through the generations.

Thanks for letting me vent.


You've got to get it out there! Not too many chances in everyday
conversation to talk about these things...

* TL *

  #10  
Old July 27th 03, 09:13 PM
Christina Peterson
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Posts: n/a
Default

My therapist had advised me to see how "poisonous" my mother was, so I could
protect myself from her head trips. Now that I can see what she does to
damage me, especial when she's being "helpful", I am able to see why she was
a poor mother, but also why she makes a neat friend for an adult. For
someone she doesn't hold power over. With reasonably good understanding of
how she operates and how she effects me, I am able to have a reasonably good
relationship with her.

Tina


"Diana Curtis" wrote in message
...
Dad and my mom divorced when I was 18. I knew him all my life. From what I
can see from the perspective of age he never knew me well except from the
veiw that I was a woman and the only woman I ever saw him treat

respectfully
was his mother. I also see a lot of emotional incest going on in my
childhood...and lots of discounting of my feelings, opinions, thoughts

and
ideas.
I know he wanted to be a history teacher but instead worked all his life
at a more lucrative job.
My sister tried till the day she died to get him to *see* her and my older
brother distanced himself from him, for similar reasons to mine. We just
couldnt handle the feeling that we were and always would be a huge
dissappointment to him.
I know I cant change him, talking to him would be pointless because he

would
hear the words but since he thinks the problem is me he wouldnt be

affected
by it. What I would like it to stop stewing about it. What a small thing

to
let ruin my days.... as with Kathy, there is one person who doesnt think
much of me and the rest of the world thinks Im ok. Why do I listen to the
old tapes and stew? Unproductive.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Diana

--
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44

"Tante Lina" wrote in message
k.net...
Most of the time I think Im pretty neat. There are even those
people who are not family members who agree!


Oh I'm sure you are neat!

What are his circumstances? Sounds like there was a divorce in the

past?
Did he miss seeing you grow up? Is he happy with his accomplishments in
life?

* TL *





 




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