Door Insert Strength

Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside.
As this involves grandkids running in and out with
the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be
needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with
copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout
the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for
all your ideas and warnings!


--
Hal Keeney (dba)
Eugene's Studio
Stained Glass Artistry

if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and
allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every
thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m

"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside.
As this involves grandkids running in and out with
the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be
needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with
copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout
the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for
all your ideas and warnings!


--
Hal Keeney (dba)
Eugene's Studio
Stained Glass Artistry

Hi -

I do a lot of installations like the one you have described.

"Sandwiching" the art glass between clear panes (i.e., tempered 1/8 inch)
has created condensation problems here in Florida, where inside and outside
temps are sometimes 30 degrees or more apart, and where outside temp is
subject to drop significantly and quickly during our infamous afternoon
showers. This is true even if the layers are left free to "breathe" by not
sealing around the edges.

I have seen best results with just a single layer of clear glass, almost
always facing the outside. This provides plenty of support, protection from
elements and vandals, and no condensation problems. For extra security, you
can go to 1/4 inch tempered.

Just my .02...

Steve Roberts


"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside.
As this involves grandkids running in and out with
the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be
needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with
copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout
the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for
all your ideas and warnings!


--
Hal Keeney (dba)
Eugene's Studio
Stained Glass Artistry

if you use weep holes properly, condensation should not be a problem, no
matter the temp. m


"Steve Roberts" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hi -

I do a lot of installations like the one you have described.

"Sandwiching" the art glass between clear panes (i.e., tempered 1/8 inch)
has created condensation problems here in Florida, where inside and
outside
temps are sometimes 30 degrees or more apart, and where outside temp is
subject to drop significantly and quickly during our infamous afternoon
showers. This is true even if the layers are left free to "breathe" by
not
sealing around the edges.

I have seen best results with just a single layer of clear glass, almost
always facing the outside. This provides plenty of support, protection
from
elements and vandals, and no condensation problems. For extra security,
you
can go to 1/4 inch tempered.

Just my .02...

Steve Roberts


"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside.
As this involves grandkids running in and out with
the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be
needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with
copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout
the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for
all your ideas and warnings!


--
Hal Keeney (dba)
Eugene's Studio
Stained Glass Artistry

Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed". Could
you explain it to me?
I think I know what you said, but am not sure that
what you said is the same thing that I think it is.
Hal

"Michele Blank" wrote in message
...
if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and
allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every
thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m

"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside.
As this involves grandkids running in and out with
the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be
needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with
copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout
the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for
all your ideas and warnings!


--
Hal Keeney (dba)
Eugene's Studio
Stained Glass Artistry

it's just a fancy term for sandwiching the panel inside 2 sheets of tempered
glass. works well for doors that get a lot of action, slamming, etc. to
prevent bulging down the road (without having to use ugly re-bar
criss-crossing on one side). I do re-inforce heavily inside my lines with
strongline to add strength. m

"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed".
Could
you explain it to me?
I think I know what you said, but am not sure that
what you said is the same thing that I think it is.
Hal

"Michele Blank" wrote in message
...
if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect, and
allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future. Every
thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m

"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside.
As this involves grandkids running in and out with
the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be
needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with
copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout
the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for
all your ideas and warnings!


--
Hal Keeney (dba)
Eugene's Studio
Stained Glass Artistry

Having just gone through some of the same gyrations with a customer who
wouldn't listen to the voice of experience and reason, I'd like to pop in
with a few words of advice.

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!

Here's why:

I'm assuming from your initial post that the door already has an opening
that is 21x35, and that the current window is installed with some trim stops
that are nailed into the opening on one side (usually on the interior). The
existing glass is probably sealed into the door inside a milled ledge (a
rabbett) with some sealant (silicone). The major problem you will run into
is that the thickness of the door will likely not be enough to be adding
additional layers of glass. Usually the rabbett and stop are milled to
accept a particular type of glass panel. Adding additional thicknesses of
glass or a SG panel will prevent you reinstalling the trim stops. Unless
you are willing to undertake some major millwork operations, this can call
a halt to the project in it's early stages.

If there's room to put an insert in the door that is about 3/4 to 7/8"
thick, then I'd suggest you put an insulated panel in. The 21 x35" opening
will be the outside dimensions of the whole unit. The insulated panel has 3
layers, 2 sheets of tempered with the SG panel in the middle. You will
have to have the IG unit built, (unless you have a squiggle machine and a
tempering unit). The process is done with heat and pressure. The sealant
(squiggle) is sort of a black "U" shaped channel of a rubbery looking stuff.
They put the edge of your SG panel into the squiggle's "U", and sandwich
the two tempered pieces and put it into the press. Your SG panel needs to
be about 20.25"x 34.25", as the squiggle is about 5/16 to 3/8" thick, and
the panel will "grow" if you make the SG to the finished size. You need to
reduce the final size of the art glass by 3/8" all the way around.

The best price I have been able to find here in Atlanta for someone to
squiggle a SG panel, with them supplying the tempered glass, is about $27
per sq ft. The other issue is that a 6 sq ft IG window with SG in it is
going to be really heavy and the door may not have enough strength to hold
it in place if the kids are going to be slamming it...especially if you have
to narrow the trim stops down to accomodate the added thickness of the new
panel..

An IG unit requires 2 sheets of tempered. You can't seal one sheet to the
SG without causing condensation. You can install the SG with one sheet of
tempered just "in" the opening, without sealing it and "maybe" avoid the
condensation problem.

This is not a project for the faint of heart....I will NEVER do one of these
again.



"Michele Blank" wrote in message
...
it's just a fancy term for sandwiching the panel inside 2 sheets of
tempered
glass. works well for doors that get a lot of action, slamming, etc. to
prevent bulging down the road (without having to use ugly re-bar
criss-crossing on one side). I do re-inforce heavily inside my lines with
strongline to add strength. m

"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed".
Could
you explain it to me?
I think I know what you said, but am not sure that
what you said is the same thing that I think it is.
Hal

"Michele Blank" wrote in
message
...
if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect,
and
allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future.
Every
thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m

"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside.
As this involves grandkids running in and out with
the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be
needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with
copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout
the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for
all your ideas and warnings!


--
Hal Keeney (dba)
Eugene's Studio
Stained Glass Artistry

i have never encountered that particular problem as most of the doors in
these parts are a good inch thick or more. Making new stops for these
doesn't require too much labor . m


"Moonraker" wrote in message
...
Having just gone through some of the same gyrations with a customer who
wouldn't listen to the voice of experience and reason, I'd like to pop in
with a few words of advice.

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!

Here's why:

I'm assuming from your initial post that the door already has an opening
that is 21x35, and that the current window is installed with some trim
stops
that are nailed into the opening on one side (usually on the interior).
The
existing glass is probably sealed into the door inside a milled ledge (a
rabbett) with some sealant (silicone). The major problem you will run
into
is that the thickness of the door will likely not be enough to be adding
additional layers of glass. Usually the rabbett and stop are milled to
accept a particular type of glass panel. Adding additional thicknesses
of
glass or a SG panel will prevent you reinstalling the trim stops. Unless
you are willing to undertake some major millwork operations, this can
call
a halt to the project in it's early stages.

If there's room to put an insert in the door that is about 3/4 to 7/8"
thick, then I'd suggest you put an insulated panel in. The 21 x35"
opening
will be the outside dimensions of the whole unit. The insulated panel has
3
layers, 2 sheets of tempered with the SG panel in the middle. You will
have to have the IG unit built, (unless you have a squiggle machine and a
tempering unit). The process is done with heat and pressure. The sealant
(squiggle) is sort of a black "U" shaped channel of a rubbery looking
stuff.
They put the edge of your SG panel into the squiggle's "U", and sandwich
the two tempered pieces and put it into the press. Your SG panel needs to
be about 20.25"x 34.25", as the squiggle is about 5/16 to 3/8" thick, and
the panel will "grow" if you make the SG to the finished size. You need
to
reduce the final size of the art glass by 3/8" all the way around.

The best price I have been able to find here in Atlanta for someone to
squiggle a SG panel, with them supplying the tempered glass, is about $27
per sq ft. The other issue is that a 6 sq ft IG window with SG in it is
going to be really heavy and the door may not have enough strength to hold
it in place if the kids are going to be slamming it...especially if you
have
to narrow the trim stops down to accomodate the added thickness of the new
panel..

An IG unit requires 2 sheets of tempered. You can't seal one sheet to the
SG without causing condensation. You can install the SG with one sheet of
tempered just "in" the opening, without sealing it and "maybe" avoid the
condensation problem.

This is not a project for the faint of heart....I will NEVER do one of
these
again.



"Michele Blank" wrote in message
...
it's just a fancy term for sandwiching the panel inside 2 sheets of
tempered
glass. works well for doors that get a lot of action, slamming, etc. to
prevent bulging down the road (without having to use ugly re-bar
criss-crossing on one side). I do re-inforce heavily inside my lines
with
strongline to add strength. m

"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the reply, Michele. Never heard the term "triple glazed".
Could
you explain it to me?
I think I know what you said, but am not sure that
what you said is the same thing that I think it is.
Hal

"Michele Blank" wrote in
message
...
if you triple glaze it, you insulate,slam protect, weather protect,
and
allow potential movement/ re-installation of the piece in future.
Every
thing you plan sounds sound(echo not withstanding) m

"Harold E. Keeney (Hal)" wrote in message
...
Have an existing door at a sea shore cottage. The
owner wants an insert, (21" x 35") on the inside.
As this involves grandkids running in and out with
the usual "slam", what kind of strength would be
needed for this kind of use?

My thinking at present is to use copper foil with
copper-plated steel reinforcing strip throughout
the piece. Any thoughts about this? Thanks for
all your ideas and warnings!


--
Hal Keeney (dba)
Eugene's Studio
Stained Glass Artistry

"Michele Blank" wrote in message
...
i have never encountered that particular problem as most of the doors in
these parts are a good inch thick or more. Making new stops for these
doesn't require too much labor . m

Probably not if the door is white pine and the opening is rectangular. It
becomes a lot more involved if the door is Mahogany and the opening is oval,
like the one I've been dealing with.

It's a given that the center of the door will be about an inch thick, or
more. And when the exterior stop is 1/2" and the interior stop is also
1/2", it doesn't leave much room for glass. ;)

Interior doors are commonly 1-3/8" thick. Exterior doors of quality are
usually 1-3/4" although older doors may be thinner. Getting oval stop
should be more of a problem than fitting it in.

--
Mike Firth
Hot Glass Bits Furnace Working Website
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/hotbit45.htm Latest notes
http://users.ticnet.com/mikefirth/NTBowl.htm Once again, Empty Bowls
will collect for the North Texas food banks - donate.
"Moonraker" wrote in message
...

"Michele Blank" wrote in message
...
i have never encountered that particular problem as most of the doors in
these parts are a good inch thick or more. Making new stops for these
doesn't require too much labor . m

Probably not if the door is white pine and the opening is rectangular.
It
becomes a lot more involved if the door is Mahogany and the opening is
oval,
like the one I've been dealing with.

It's a given that the center of the door will be about an inch thick, or
more. And when the exterior stop is 1/2" and the interior stop is also
1/2", it doesn't leave much room for glass. ;)