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need advice on ring repair



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 21st 08, 06:37 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default need advice on ring repair

Hi,
I would really appreciate some advice on how to fix my great-
grandmother's ring
My mother replaced two stones with something the local jeweler could
find ("granat"? I think... ) when they fell out
some years ago, and now I am wearing the ring and... well, another
stone just fell out
I bought some (cheap) loose diamonds on ebay and discovered that they
don't match the ring at all.
The main problem is, the diamonds in my ring have a lot *fewer*
facets(?) and they don't have as much of that overwhelming sparkle,
they almost look _transparent_. They also don't have a flat top
(instead, they come to a point). The two fake "granat"replacement
stones do have a flat top (but they look different, and dull - I would
like to replace them too, actually). Here are some pictures (this was
really difficult to photograph... so please forgive the quality.. and
the background, lol) :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring1.jpg
- the missing stone at 9 o'clock, the fake ones at 11 and 12. The e-
bay diamond is next to the ring, and the picture doesn't do it justice
to show just how out of place it looks next to the ring.
More pictures, from a different angle:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring6.jpg - the
fakes are at 5&6 o'clock now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring8.jpg - at 11
and 12.

My main question is: where to get the right cut of diamond that
matches best? What is the name of the cut I need?
And once I get the right stones, can just about any jeweler at the
local Zales/Kay store at the mall put the stones in? I am kind of
skeptical, I've once had a necklace repaired there, and that was a
total hack job. Really terrible

And, finally, should I just stop wearing the ring (I like it, and I
would rather not!), since it's old and the stones are falling out?
What is the normal "lifespan" of a ring like this? This one was made
in 1880s.

Thanks!

P.S. if someone decides to reply by e-mail, please use "ochame_0
(at) yahoo.com", and not the address in the header (that one went
defunct ages ago).
Ads
  #2  
Old January 22nd 08, 04:23 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Heinrich Butschal[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default need advice on ring repair


schrieb:
Hi,
I would really appreciate some advice on how to fix my great-
grandmother's ring
My mother replaced two stones with something the local jeweler could
find ("granat"? I think... ) when they fell out
some years ago, and now I am wearing the ring and... well, another
stone just fell out
I bought some (cheap) loose diamonds on ebay and discovered that they
don't match the ring at all.
The main problem is, the diamonds in my ring have a lot *fewer*
facets(?) and they don't have as much of that overwhelming sparkle,
they almost look _transparent_. They also don't have a flat top
(instead, they come to a point). The two fake "granat"replacement
stones do have a flat top (but they look different, and dull - I would
like to replace them too, actually). Here are some pictures (this was
really difficult to photograph... so please forgive the quality.. and
the background, lol) :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring1.jpg
- the missing stone at 9 o'clock, the fake ones at 11 and 12. The e-
bay diamond is next to the ring, and the picture doesn't do it justice
to show just how out of place it looks next to the ring.
More pictures, from a different angle:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring6.jpg - the
fakes are at 5&6 o'clock now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring8.jpg - at 11
and 12.

My main question is: where to get the right cut of diamond that
matches best? What is the name of the cut I need?
And once I get the right stones, can just about any jeweler at the
local Zales/Kay store at the mall put the stones in? I am kind of
skeptical, I've once had a necklace repaired there, and that was a
total hack job. Really terrible

And, finally, should I just stop wearing the ring (I like it, and I
would rather not!), since it's old and the stones are falling out?
What is the normal "lifespan" of a ring like this? This one was made
in 1880s.

Thanks!

P.S. if someone decides to reply by e-mail, please use "ochame_0
(at) yahoo.com", and not the address in the header (that one went
defunct ages ago).


Seems You are in a desert of goldsmith knowledge.
These rose cut diamonds are still popular for restauration of real antik yewels.
However not at any place.
I am sorry for You, look here, restaurated nearly perfect ist possible.

http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/brosche/5/detail.htm
http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/brosche/6/detail.htm

Shurely also in the USA not only in Germany.

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Heinrich Butschal
--
Schmuck Gutachter und Schmuckverkauf http://www.butschal.de
Schmuck nach Maß anfertigen http://www.meister-atelier.de
Firmengeschenke und Ehrennadeln http://www.schmuckfabrik.de
Schmuck gut verkaufen und günstig kaufen http://www.schmuck-boerse.com
  #3  
Old January 22nd 08, 04:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default need advice on ring repair

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:37:11 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote:

Hi,
I would really appreciate some advice on how to fix my great-
grandmother's ring
My mother replaced two stones with something the local jeweler could
find ("granat"? I think... ) when they fell out
some years ago, and now I am wearing the ring and... well, another
stone just fell out
I bought some (cheap) loose diamonds on ebay and discovered that they
don't match the ring at all.


What you bought on ebay are modern cutting designs. Larger modern round stones
usually have 58 facets, and are called round brilliants, or full cuts when
they're small. Smaller, simpler ones, have 8 facets on the bottom, 8 crown
(angled) facets on the top, and the flat "table" facet, and sometimes a tiny
flat one on the point on the bottom. These are called single cuts. Both of
these cuts differ from yours in that, because of the pointed bottom side (called
a "pavilion"), these are able to reflect most of the light that hits them from
the top, back to the viewer (that's the property that the word "brilliant"
refers to in the name of the more complex standard round cut). Your small
stones were cut before the optics of diamond were fully understood, so they
were not cut for this degree of reflectivity. Thus they have a flat back, and a
nice pattern of facets on the top forming a shallow dome or shallow peak, etc.
They weigh a lot less for a stone of a given diameter than do modern cuts, and
are typical of small diamonds used in jewelry before the first decade or so of
the 20th century.

They are called "rose cuts", and in buying them, what you generally need to
specify is the diameter of the stone.

You may or may not be able to find these sold to the public on ebay. Much less
common than modern cut stones (single cuts or full cuts), they nevertheless are
still available, usually as stones that have been reclaimed from antiques that
no longer can be repaired or aren't worth repairing. Some are still cut today,
and some modern jewelers are rediscovering that the old rose cuts have a charm
of their own, so occasionally you'll find a jeweler using them in contemporary
jewelry. That creates some demand as well as the ongoing needs of jewelers
for rose cuts to replace stones missing in antiques, such as your situation.

The main problem is, the diamonds in my ring have a lot *fewer*
facets(?) and they don't have as much of that overwhelming sparkle,
they almost look _transparent_. They also don't have a flat top
(instead, they come to a point). The two fake "granat"replacement
stones do have a flat top (but they look different, and dull - I would
like to replace them too, actually). Here are some pictures (this was
really difficult to photograph... so please forgive the quality.. and
the background, lol) :


Not that bad a set of photos, actually, for someone not used to photographing
jewelry... Small reflective objects have never been easy to photograph. You
did well enough for us to see what's needed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring1.jpg
- the missing stone at 9 o'clock, the fake ones at 11 and 12. The e-
bay diamond is next to the ring, and the picture doesn't do it justice
to show just how out of place it looks next to the ring.
More pictures, from a different angle:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring6.jpg - the
fakes are at 5&6 o'clock now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...olco/ring8.jpg - at 11
and 12.

My main question is: where to get the right cut of diamond that
matches best? What is the name of the cut I need?


As I said, they're called Rose cuts. The bigger question is where to get them.
I've got a source or two, diamond dealers I've dealt with who have some, and
most decent jewelers also have access to diamond dealers who may have these.
There are also a few diamond dealers who specialize in rose cuts and the other
two common antique diamond cuts, called "old european" and "old mine" cuts. But
your problem is that most of these dealers are wholesale only, not generally
dealing with the public directly. Feel free to search on the web, and maybe
you'll get lucky, but I'd say your best bet is to first concentrate on finding
a competent goldsmith skilled in jewelry repair more complex than simple ring
sizing or chain repairs and the like, and who's got experience in working with
antiques like this. It can be more tricky than it seems to a non jeweler, since
often the metal alloys are slightly different, methods of construction may not
be the same as with modern jewelery, and there are a lot of less skilled (I'm
being polite) goldsmiths working in places like the department store kiosks etc,
who are just fine in ring sizing and chain repairs and simple stuff with modern
jewelery, but who'll make an absolute mess of a nice antique, and sometimes not
even know they've done so. It would appear (judging by the poorly chosen
replacements, and perhaps the poor setting (since stones fell out)) that your
ring has already suffered enough at the hands of such folks.

So it's time to find someone who knows what they're doing. And you probably
won't find that at a chain jewelry store like Zales, or the kiosk at Fred Meyer,
or Sears, or for that matter, most of the jewelery stores found in shopping
malls. You need to find a store that's been around for a while, and has
enough of it's own workshop, probably on the premises, that they can and do make
at least some of their own jewelry for sale, and are able to do decent skilled
repair work. If they happen to be equipped with modern tools like laser
welders, the degree to which some of the antique jewelry can be fully and well
restored is greatly increased (the lasers are wonderful tools for this type of
work, making it possible to gently and precisly build up and restore worn
prongs, etc, without flooding the whole thing with messy solder or otherwise
causing more damage than is being fixed...

Once you find the person or shop who's well equipped to do this type of work
competently, let them order the rose cuts for you. They'll have the sources,
and be able to precisely measure the size that will work best (It does need to
be pretty much exactly right in order to get the best job, and you may not know
what to look for with that measurement if you're doing it yourself) They'll
also be better able to match the existing color and clarity of the other stones,
so the new ones match as well as possible.

And once I get the right stones, can just about any jeweler at the
local Zales/Kay store at the mall put the stones in? I am kind of
skeptical, I've once had a necklace repaired there, and that was a
total hack job. Really terrible


Yup. many of these shops are staffed with rather less skilled workers, who are
nevertheless overworked, and pressed to work as fast as they can with the
limited skills and equipment they have available. It's not always this way, but
often enough to be hard to recommend any of the chain stores as a general rule.
This is probably unfair to those workers in those shops who do indeed have skill
and take their time, but finding those few among the hacks is hard to do unless
you know someone who knows a specific jeweler who's prooved him or herself
capable.


And, finally, should I just stop wearing the ring (I like it, and I
would rather not!), since it's old and the stones are falling out?


Stop wearing it until you get if fixed. If one stone recently fell out, chances
are others are not tight enough any more either, and you risk loosing more if
you keep wearing it. This does not mean you have to give up wearing it
altogether, just that you should have it properly and fully serviced before you
put it back on. You'd not drive your car around with no brakes and a blown
radiator until you'd had both fixed, but then it would be fine. Same thing.

Do note that antique jewelry was made in an era when most people did not wear
their jewels all the time. They were worn on special occasions, or for "dress
up" days and the like, rather than seven days a week without a care. So many
antiques are quite delicate, not made for heavy day to day wear. Your ring
isn't quite in that catagory, but even so, the amount of metal holding the
stones may be small. it needs to be serviced now and then to make sure
everything is safe, and to correct any loose stones or worn settings before you
loose hard to replace stones. It's much easier to keep a stone from falling out
in the first place, than to find an exact replacement after one does fall out.

What is the normal "lifespan" of a ring like this? This one was made
in 1880s.


That depends on how you wear it. And keep in mind that for the most part, wear
and tear can almost always be restored and repaired, if you are willing to have
it done.

Peter


Thanks!

P.S. if someone decides to reply by e-mail, please use "ochame_0
(at) yahoo.com", and not the address in the header (that one went
defunct ages ago).

  #4  
Old January 22nd 08, 06:23 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default need advice on ring repair

On Jan 21, 9:23 pm, Heinrich Butschal
wrote:

http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/brosche/5/detail.htm
http://www.schmuck-boerse.com/brosche/6/detail.htm


Those look fantastic! Beautiful.

Thank you for your encouragement.
I hope I will find someone with the skill and the knowledge.
Hopefully, I won't even have to travel to either coast to find
them

O.
  #5  
Old January 22nd 08, 06:23 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default need advice on ring repair

On Jan 21, 9:59 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:

Thank you for such a detailed reply!!!
Your explanations made perfect sense. With the information you
provided, I will
know what to look for so I can educate myself further. I will also
look for the right place
to have the restoration job done.

I had no idea what I was getting into when I decided to do something
about that ring.
It's really not a small job, is it?
Thanks again!

O.
  #6  
Old January 22nd 08, 06:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default need advice on ring repair

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 09:23:13 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry
wrote:

I had no idea what I was getting into when I decided to do something
about that ring.
It's really not a small job, is it?


That depends. It will be at least a little tricky to find the proper stones
(the rose cuts in the right size). Once you've done that, or found someone with
a good source, whether the actual repair job of replacing the stones is complex
or not depends on why the stones fell out and what needs to be done. It may be
that the new stones will just fit in, and existing metal will be enough to
properly reset them securely. If this is the case, then the repair is not
complex for any decently competent jeweler. If, on the other hand, metal needs
to be built up and/or restored, then antiques can get quickly more difficult to
do properly. One common situation is to find that the diamonds are set in a
thin layer of white colored metal, rather than yellow gold. In modern jewelry,
this would be white gold, or platinum. Both are familiar to most jewelers,
especially white golds. But white gold alloys were not availabie in the late
1800s, and platinum was rarely used. So one finds these made with silver
alloys. And that gets rather more complex to repair well, especially if the
jeweler doing it is not experienced in rebuilding that type of setting.

So it might be fairly simple, or it might not. Can't tell without seeing it
really up close.

Peter
  #7  
Old January 23rd 08, 03:59 AM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
ted frater
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 133
Default need advice on ring repair

wrote:
On Jan 21, 9:59 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:

Thank you for such a detailed reply!!!
Your explanations made perfect sense. With the information you
provided, I will
know what to look for so I can educate myself further. I will also
look for the right place
to have the restoration job done.

I had no idea what I was getting into when I decided to do something
about that ring.
It's really not a small job, is it?
Thanks again!

O.


Ive had a look at the images you posted of this ring.
Im not a jeweller but a silversmith, so couldnt do the repairs needed.
However I do know whats good and this ring is in this caqtegory.
The shank , the gold part that goes around your finger appears not to
be worn, thats in its favour.
Also the design is quite charming .
so its well worth restoring. in my view.
The stones are like Peter has written . most probably set with silver
and the way they are set is called a rub over setting.
In view of its age and theway you would like to wear it, Id say all the
settings need to be replaced, so that it will have another 120 years or
so of useful life.

Now the real question is who is competent to do this overhaul and supply
suitable replacement stones?

Ted Frater
Dorset UK
Silversmith and minter.


  #8  
Old January 23rd 08, 06:40 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Maren at google
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 311
Default need advice on ring repair

On Jan 22, 4:59 pm, Ted Frater wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 21, 9:59 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:


Thank you for such a detailed reply!!!
Your explanations made perfect sense. With the information you
provided, I will
know what to look for so I can educate myself further. I will also
look for the right place
to have the restoration job done.


I had no idea what I was getting into when I decided to do something
about that ring.
It's really not a small job, is it?
Thanks again!


O.


Ive had a look at the images you posted of this ring.
Im not a jeweller but a silversmith, so couldnt do the repairs needed.


[...]

Now the real question is who is competent to do this overhaul and supply
suitable replacement stones?


Certainly not me, I'm just a beader who occasionally comes by here,
but
I live in a rather small town and I found a jeweler here who I'd trust
with
a job like that - he builds up the setting on my wedding ring just
about
each time I take it in when the diamond gets loose, but that's just
plain
gold.
If there's somebody like that here you should be able to find one
where
you are. I found that people like that usually don't have big stores,
and
definitely not in malls. You're looking for an artist (a very skilled
one)
rather than for a salesperson.

Aloha,
Maren
HiloBeads: Beads - Findings - Hand-made Jewelry
http://www.hilobeads.com/
  #9  
Old January 23rd 08, 06:40 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Graver
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default need advice on ring repair

On Jan 22, 9:59=A0pm, Ted Frater wrote:
wrote:
On Jan 21, 9:59 pm, "Peter W.. Rowe,"
wrote:


Thank you for such a detailed reply!!!
Your explanations made perfect sense. With the information you
provided, I will
know what to look for so I can educate myself further. I will also
look for the right place
to have the restoration job done.


I had no idea what I was getting into when I decided to do something
about that ring.
It's really not a small job, is it?
Thanks again!


O.


Ive had a look at the images you posted of this ring.
=A0 Im not a jeweller but a silversmith, so couldnt do the repairs needed.=


However I do know whats good and this ring is in this caqtegory.
=A0 The shank , the gold part that goes around your finger appears not to
be worn, thats in its favour.
=A0 Also the design is quite charming .
=A0 so its well worth restoring. in my view.
=A0 The stones are like Peter has written . most probably =A0set with silv=

er
and the way they are set is called a rub over setting.
In view of its age and theway you would like to wear it, Id say all the
settings need to be replaced, so that it will have another 120 years or
so of useful life.

Now the real question is who is competent to do this overhaul and supply
suitable replacement stones?

Ted Frater
=A0 Dorset UK
Silversmith and minter.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Hello,

Here's a thought, you have nice ring that can be reworked with new
stones all around. The stones in the ring now look dead and have no
life. Many people are suprised to find out that in fact synthetic
stones have been around for hundreds of years. Now I'm not saying
you're stones are man made, but to find stones to match is only one of
the considerations you have to look at. The stones are set in white
gold bezels, and most likley will be worn to a point where they need
replacing to set a new stone. Here in lies the problem, once the ring
is heated to remove the old bezels is when you'll find out what the
stones are. I would even suspect the center stone could be man made,
as I see alot of wear on the facets. I know the ring is very old and
most likely it's just wear and tear. The ring will have to be heated
to release the worn gold so at this point be prepared to be turned
down by alot of jewelers who won't take the chance of having to
replace stones without you knowing the possibility of them popping. I
suggest you go to ebay after you have someone with a millimeter gage
take measurements of the stones, and go with Moissanite. They'er
beautiful and take heat like a diamond, also their very hard and will
resist scratching for years. You'd be supprised at how many people
wearing two carat or more diamonds are really Moissanite. In any
event, these are just suggestions. I have repaired many rings like
this, and you just don't know what to expect until you start working.
Good luck,
Mark
  #10  
Old January 23rd 08, 07:06 PM posted to rec.crafts.jewelry
Peter W.. Rowe,
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 355
Default need advice on ring repair

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:40:21 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Graver
wrote:


Hello,

Here's a thought, you have nice ring that can be reworked with new
stones all around.


replacing the old stones with new modern stones would indeed make the ring look
livelier. But it would also completely remove any antique value it now probably
has.

The stones in the ring now look dead and have no
life.


An overstatement. The old rose cuts aren't as bright, but they have a charm all
of their own. A whole lot of improvement can be had with just a good cleaning.

Many people are suprised to find out that in fact synthetic
stones have been around for hundreds of years.


Imitations have been around for hundreds (note the s) of years. As old as
jewelry making. But true synthetics weren't really commercially available until
the flame fusion synthetic rubies, and later other forms of synthetic corrundum,
became available in the late 1800s. Clear ones weren't widely available until
almost world war 1. This ring predates that.

Now I'm not saying
you're stones are man made, but to find stones to match is only one of
the considerations you have to look at. The stones are set in white
gold bezels, and most likley will be worn to a point where they need
replacing to set a new stone.


No. At this time, white gold was not yet developed. That became available as
an alternative to platinum during world war 1. At the time this ring was made,
the white metal used in the top would have been a silver based alloy. One finds
just plain sterling silver, fine silver, and "electrum" mixes of gold and silver
with enough silver to be still white. Determining just which is in any given
antique can be tricky, as is rebuilding them. And, usually this style is not
full bezel settings, which would be completely around the stone. Rather, the
outer rim is complete around the ring, with the edges of the stones nudged under
that outer ring, like a bezel (or maybe just the outer edge mashed over the
edges by time and wear), but the settings are usually actually set and mostly
held by two shared beads on the inner sides of the diamonds, between them. When
these come loose, often it's simply the beads that need to be reformed and
tightened, or built up, and often the outer bezel, with a bit of work with a
small burnisher, can be simply reshaped without needing much added metal. When
these silver tops actually need metal added, it can be quite tricky to do well.
I've seen a lot of these that were "rebuilt" by jewelers using white gold
solders, and the results are seldom quite what the original design had in mind,
and almost always, though they can be pretty, they no longer have any value as
antiques.

Here in lies the problem, once the ring
is heated to remove the old bezels is when you'll find out what the
stones are.


Oh? I'd expect any competent jeweler would make very sure he or she knows
exactly what the stone and the metals are long before ever reaching for a torch,
or for that matter, giving a final price quote for the job. Heating by itself
won't identify the stones other than by destroying some types, but it could
damage them if you don't know what they are. In some cases, the stones would
need to be carefully cut out of the ring before any heating takes place.
Certainly, if you're replacing the whole white top, this would be the proper
course of action.

I would even suspect the center stone could be man made,


Maybe. At the late 1800s, the blue synthetics were, if available at all, still
unusual. One does see doublets, glass, etc. synthetic sapphire or the more
common synthetic blue spinel isn't that different from natural sapphire in it's
resistance to wear and tear. I'd guess this is probably a real stone, just from
it's age. Glass would have died long ago. But of course, a proper
determination of what it is needs more than a blurred photo on the internet to
take any real guess at.

as I see alot of wear on the facets. I know the ring is very old and
most likely it's just wear and tear. The ring will have to be heated
to release the worn gold.


Sometimes, but it can also be removed mechanically (files, gravers, etc) which
in some cases is the safer way to do it. Slower, but safer. And as I said, at
this time period (late 1800s) it won't be white gold. Platinum is a
possibility, but not as likely.

so at this point be prepared to be turned
down by alot of jewelers who won't take the chance of having to
replace stones without you knowing the possibility of them popping. I
suggest you go to ebay after you have someone with a millimeter gage
take measurements of the stones, and go with Moissanite. They'er
beautiful and take heat like a diamond, also their very hard and will
resist scratching for years. You'd be supprised at how many people
wearing two carat or more diamonds are really Moissanite.


Yeah, so would I. In over 30 years of working with jewelery in manufacturing
and in trade shop repair business, I can count on one hand the number of
moissanites that have come through the shop where the owner didn't know it, and
not many more where the owner did. Manufacturers we work with who've tried them
as showcase stones instead of diamonds for display purposes usually go back to
CZ quickly. They've not been around all that long, they're costly as an
imitation, and frankly, I disagree with you a little on the good looks. I find
them usually to be darker in color than I like, and I find the strong double
refraction distracting. Yes, they're nice and attractive, but frankly, a really
well cut C.Z. looks more like diamond than a moissonite. The CZ won't last as
long of course, but you can buy a hundred of em for the cost of the moissanite,
and replace the CZs as they get worn.

In any
event, these are just suggestions. I have repaired many rings like
this, and you just don't know what to expect until you start working.


Very true indeed.

Peter
 




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