Bernina fraud on eBay

Yes, it's unfortunate but true that Berninas and other high end sewing
machines are frequent fraud items on eBay. However, the auction
Phaedrine referenced appears to be legitimate. Yes, Bernina says only
the tech is supposed to be able to see how many hours are on the
machine, but everyone who belongs to any of the several online list
groups for Bernina owners knows you just have to hold down the Clear
button while you turn on the machine to see the number of sewing and
embroidery hours on the machines. But there are a lot of terrific,
honest sellers on eBay selling great machines at substantial savings
over new machines and it would be a shame for people to lose out on
those great deals out of fear, Here are some tips on how to buy a
great used machine on eBay, and how NOT to be a victim of fraud:

1. Avoid short 1-day and 3-day auctions; they are often scams (thieves
steal the user ID and password of real eBay sellers and post a
fraudulent auction for an item they don't even have, using stolen
photos and text from a closed auction. They do the short auction
because they are hoping someone will fall for their scam quickly,
before the seller whose ID they have stolen discovers the listing and
reports it to eBay. Real sellers want as many potential buyers to see
their auction as possible, so legitimate auctions will usually run 7
or 10 days.
2. When an auction description says "Contact me at my private email
address for a buy it now price," RUN RUN RUN!! Again, this is a
warning sign that the seller's ID has been hijacked, because if you
use the "ask seller a question" feature through eBay it would send an
email to the REAL person who is registered with ebay, not to the thief
who wants to steal your money.
3. Don't send anyone money through Western Union, because you have no
recourse that way if no machine is ever shipped to you. Instead, pay
with PayPal -- it's free to buyers, it gives you built in fraud
protection through eBay and through PayPal, and if you pay with your
credit card through PayPal you have additional protection through your
credit card company in the event you get suckered into a scam -- they
will reverse the charge back to you and you will not be out any money
(AmEx is especially great with that).
4. The best advice I could give ANYONE looking to buy a used machine
on eBay is to get to know the seller by asking questions through the
Ask Seller a Question feature. Ask why they are selling the machine,
how many crazy quilting stitches does it have, how do you set it up
for free motion quilting -- whatever you can think of, but SOMETHING
that a crook in an internet cafe in Eastern Europe somewhere will not
be able to answer, but that an honest, real sewer would know about her
machine.

I have bought AND sold several high end sewing machines on eBay, and I
wouldn't be able to afford all of the fancy toys I have in my sewing
room if I had to buy them all brand new from the dealer, so I speak
from experience that good deals are out there to be had -- you just
have to watch out for those few rotten apples trying to spoil it for
everyone else!

Rebecca

sewfine wrote:
Yes, it's unfortunate but true that Berninas and other high end sewing
machines are frequent fraud items on eBay. However, the auction
Phaedrine referenced appears to be legitimate. Yes, Bernina says only
the tech is supposed to be able to see how many hours are on the
machine, but everyone who belongs to any of the several online list
groups for Bernina owners knows you just have to hold down the Clear
button while you turn on the machine to see the number of sewing and
embroidery hours on the machines. But there are a lot of terrific,
honest sellers on eBay selling great machines at substantial savings
over new machines and it would be a shame for people to lose out on
those great deals out of fear, Here are some tips on how to buy a
great used machine on eBay, and how NOT to be a victim of fraud:

1. Avoid short 1-day and 3-day auctions; they are often scams (thieves
steal the user ID and password of real eBay sellers and post a
fraudulent auction for an item they don't even have, using stolen
photos and text from a closed auction. They do the short auction
because they are hoping someone will fall for their scam quickly,
before the seller whose ID they have stolen discovers the listing and
reports it to eBay. Real sellers want as many potential buyers to see
their auction as possible, so legitimate auctions will usually run 7
or 10 days.
2. When an auction description says "Contact me at my private email
address for a buy it now price," RUN RUN RUN!! Again, this is a
warning sign that the seller's ID has been hijacked, because if you
use the "ask seller a question" feature through eBay it would send an
email to the REAL person who is registered with ebay, not to the thief
who wants to steal your money.
3. Don't send anyone money through Western Union, because you have no
recourse that way if no machine is ever shipped to you. Instead, pay
with PayPal -- it's free to buyers, it gives you built in fraud
protection through eBay and through PayPal, and if you pay with your
credit card through PayPal you have additional protection through your
credit card company in the event you get suckered into a scam -- they
will reverse the charge back to you and you will not be out any money
(AmEx is especially great with that).
4. The best advice I could give ANYONE looking to buy a used machine
on eBay is to get to know the seller by asking questions through the
Ask Seller a Question feature. Ask why they are selling the machine,
how many crazy quilting stitches does it have, how do you set it up
for free motion quilting -- whatever you can think of, but SOMETHING
that a crook in an internet cafe in Eastern Europe somewhere will not
be able to answer, but that an honest, real sewer would know about her
machine.

I have bought AND sold several high end sewing machines on eBay, and I
wouldn't be able to afford all of the fancy toys I have in my sewing
room if I had to buy them all brand new from the dealer, so I speak
from experience that good deals are out there to be had -- you just
have to watch out for those few rotten apples trying to spoil it for
everyone else!

Rebecca


Thanks Rebecca, this is very good advice. I know several people who
sell (and buy) machines on eBay, and it's still true that *most* people
are honest. The trouble is that the few who aren't make such an
impression that people tend to forget about the good ones.

Your description of taken over accounts is excellent, I would just add
that sometimes they are also able to take over the email account of the
real eBayer. It's so important to have different passwords for
different accounts.

For eBay, I pay *only* with Paypal, and fund the payment with a credit
card. As you say, that gives maximum security - either Paypal or my
credit card company will protect me from loss.

But using your head is also good. As usual. ;-) If a deal is too good
to be true, then it most likely is.

I know that Phaedrine wants to be helpful here, but some of the biggest
crooks I've run into have been sewing machine dealers. There's a few in
every pot, I guess.
--
Joanne
stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us.earth.milky-way.com
http://members.tripod.com/~bernardschopen/

I wouldn't buy anything from this particular seller. The usenet rules
are no ads. This seller has continually disregarded the rules. They
don't mean anything to her. So why would you buy something from someone
that thinks rules aren't for them? Too many really good sellers around
to put up with the attitude IMO. Buyer beware. I'd say buyer stay
away in this case. I buy a lot of stuff on Ebay and steering clear
of this type a buyer has worked pretty well.


sewfine wrote:
Yes, it's unfortunate but true that Berninas and other high end sewing
machines are frequent fraud items on eBay. However, the auction
Phaedrine referenced appears to be legitimate. Yes, Bernina says only
the tech is supposed to be able to see how many hours are on the
machine, but everyone who belongs to any of the several online list
groups for Bernina owners knows you just have to hold down the Clear
button while you turn on the machine to see the number of sewing and
embroidery hours on the machines. But there are a lot of terrific,
honest sellers on eBay selling great machines at substantial savings
over new machines and it would be a shame for people to lose out on
those great deals out of fear, Here are some tips on how to buy a
great used machine on eBay, and how NOT to be a victim of fraud:

1. Avoid short 1-day and 3-day auctions; they are often scams (thieves
steal the user ID and password of real eBay sellers and post a
fraudulent auction for an item they don't even have, using stolen
photos and text from a closed auction. They do the short auction
because they are hoping someone will fall for their scam quickly,
before the seller whose ID they have stolen discovers the listing and
reports it to eBay. Real sellers want as many potential buyers to see
their auction as possible, so legitimate auctions will usually run 7
or 10 days.
2. When an auction description says "Contact me at my private email
address for a buy it now price," RUN RUN RUN!! Again, this is a
warning sign that the seller's ID has been hijacked, because if you
use the "ask seller a question" feature through eBay it would send an
email to the REAL person who is registered with ebay, not to the thief
who wants to steal your money.
3. Don't send anyone money through Western Union, because you have no
recourse that way if no machine is ever shipped to you. Instead, pay
with PayPal -- it's free to buyers, it gives you built in fraud
protection through eBay and through PayPal, and if you pay with your
credit card through PayPal you have additional protection through your
credit card company in the event you get suckered into a scam -- they
will reverse the charge back to you and you will not be out any money
(AmEx is especially great with that).
4. The best advice I could give ANYONE looking to buy a used machine
on eBay is to get to know the seller by asking questions through the
Ask Seller a Question feature. Ask why they are selling the machine,
how many crazy quilting stitches does it have, how do you set it up
for free motion quilting -- whatever you can think of, but SOMETHING
that a crook in an internet cafe in Eastern Europe somewhere will not
be able to answer, but that an honest, real sewer would know about her
machine.

I have bought AND sold several high end sewing machines on eBay, and I
wouldn't be able to afford all of the fancy toys I have in my sewing
room if I had to buy them all brand new from the dealer, so I speak
from experience that good deals are out there to be had -- you just
have to watch out for those few rotten apples trying to spoil it for
everyone else!

Rebecca

Taria wrote:
I wouldn't buy anything from this particular seller. The usenet rules
are no ads. This seller has continually disregarded the rules. They
don't mean anything to her. So why would you buy something from someone
that thinks rules aren't for them? Too many really good sellers around
to put up with the attitude IMO. Buyer beware. I'd say buyer stay
away in this case. I buy a lot of stuff on Ebay and steering clear
of this type a buyer has worked pretty well.


OK, I'm confused. Are you referring to the poster "Jen"? Because if
you are, I'm really confused. I had wondered why this person posts
different auctions - the only thing they seem to have in common is that
they are embroidery-sewing machines. They have different sellers,
different locations, different machines - the only common thread I can
see is that "Jen" posts the url.
--
Joanne
stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us.earth.milky-way.com
http://members.tripod.com/~bernardschopen/

I assumed the Jan (OP) was the seller. I really am not sure what she
is up to. I would bet she is affiliated with the one seller that has
shown up more than once and is making an effort to camouflage that by
tossing in other sellers. It is one thing to drop in with a comment
about an auction. OP isn't doing that. MAybe time to get Kate to pull
out her troll recipe. I'm really not sure. I just wouldn't bid and if
she was messing with my auction (as a seller) I'd contact ebay.
Taria
(I meant seller in the last line of my previous post)

Pogonip wrote:
Taria wrote:

I wouldn't buy anything from this particular seller. The usenet rules
are no ads. This seller has continually disregarded the rules. They
don't mean anything to her. So why would you buy something from someone
that thinks rules aren't for them? Too many really good sellers around
to put up with the attitude IMO. Buyer beware. I'd say buyer stay
away in this case. I buy a lot of stuff on Ebay and steering clear
of this type a buyer has worked pretty well.



OK, I'm confused. Are you referring to the poster "Jen"? Because if
you are, I'm really confused. I had wondered why this person posts
different auctions - the only thing they seem to have in common is that
they are embroidery-sewing machines. They have different sellers,
different locations, different machines - the only common thread I can
see is that "Jen" posts the url.

Taria wrote:
I assumed the Jan (OP) was the seller. I really am not sure what she
is up to. I would bet she is affiliated with the one seller that has
shown up more than once and is making an effort to camouflage that by
tossing in other sellers. It is one thing to drop in with a comment
about an auction. OP isn't doing that. MAybe time to get Kate to pull
out her troll recipe. I'm really not sure. I just wouldn't bid and if
she was messing with my auction (as a seller) I'd contact ebay.
Taria
(I meant seller in the last line of my previous post)

Another problem is that this Jan is posting through an anonymizer, which
does not speak well for his/her intentions.

For now, I choose to ignore any posts from Jan. Heaven knows, I'm not
shopping for any more machines!!!!!!
--
Joanne
stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us.earth.milky-way.com
http://members.tripod.com/~bernardschopen/

Pogonip wrote:

Another problem is that this Jan is posting through an
anonymizer, which does not speak well for his/her
intentions.
For now, I choose to ignore any posts from Jan. Heaven
knows, I'm not shopping for any more machines!!!!!!

In addition to which, the Terms of Service of eBay
specifically prohibit spamming Usenet. Unfortunately, eBay
does not provide an "abuse@" address for reporting
inappropriate ads.

Beverly

BEI Design wrote:
Pogonip wrote:


Another problem is that this Jan is posting through an
anonymizer, which does not speak well for his/her
intentions.
For now, I choose to ignore any posts from Jan. Heaven
knows, I'm not shopping for any more machines!!!!!!


In addition to which, the Terms of Service of eBay
specifically prohibit spamming Usenet. Unfortunately, eBay
does not provide an "abuse@" address for reporting
inappropriate ads.

Beverly


The problem there is that Trust & Safety chastises the seller in the
auction and there is no apparent connection between this Jan and these
various sellers. Even if there were, the headers in the posts are not a
registered eBay address and a connection would be impossible to prove.

So one of two things would happen. A rushed CSR could put a strike
against the seller, when it wasn't the seller doing the spamming; or
absolutely nothing would be done beyond sending a boiler-plate message
that "we are investigating but due to privacy restrictions cannot inform
you of any action which may or may not be taken."

--
Joanne
stitches @ singerlady.reno.nv.us.earth.milky-way.com
http://members.tripod.com/~bernardschopen/

Taria wrote:
I assumed the Jan (OP) was the seller. I really am not sure what she
is up to. I would bet she is affiliated with the one seller that has
shown up more than once and is making an effort to camouflage that by
tossing in other sellers. It is one thing to drop in with a comment
about an auction. OP isn't doing that. MAybe time to get Kate to pull
out her troll recipe. I'm really not sure. I just wouldn't bid and if
she was messing with my auction (as a seller) I'd contact ebay.
Taria
(I meant seller in the last line of my previous post)

English BBQ'D Troll

First polish up your BBQ, removing all rust and flood damage, and don
your special shoes
(http://www.styledash.com/2007/07/02/...y-scuba-diver/)

Lie in wait in the bottom of your rubber boat with a large net, and when
the troll floats past on its log, snag it. Remember to rescue the
Bernina and send it to the OSMG for TLC.

Fire up the BBQ while you scrub the troll and tie it to a spit. Make
lots of salad... Put some rolls in the oven to bake.

When it rains, go inside and heat up that vat of chicken soup you made
yesterday and serve it with the rolls. When the floods finally subside,
you'll find the clean-up crews have removed the troll along with all the
debris.

--
Kate XXXXXX R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.katedicey.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

Hi, Phaedrine.

I didn't claim to KNOW the auction was legitimate; I only said it
appeared legit to me -- in my opinion. I have no idea who this seller
is! My only interest in posting was to defend legitimate eBay sellers
and give would-be buyers some safety tips for online auctions.
Actually, I had not realized that this person lists lots of machines
and sends anonymous links to all the newsgroups about them -- in that
case, then, I agree it's a red flag and I would stay away from that
auction too.

But you stated:
A buyer should only trust the word of an
independent, credible third party as to the status of the machine,
preferably an authorized Bernina technician who has no vested interest
in the sale outcome or a Bernina dealer who is offering a warranty.

Okay, so where are we supposed to find this neutral authorized Bernina
technician who has no vested interest in the transaction? If you
bring a used machine in for your local dealer's tech to look at, and
tech works for the local dealer (even if he is an independent
contractor, he still gets his work through the dealer and is somewhat
beholden to him or her). So if the dealer is selling the used machine
and their tech is checking it out for you, that tech is not an
independant third party. If you take the used machine to a different
Bernina dealer and ask THEIR tech to look at the machine, it's in
THEIR interest to dissuade you from buying the used machine so you'll
buy a new one from them instead. And incidentally, I know of several
people ranting and raving across the internet because they bought
brand new machines from authorized dealers that were lemons and had to
go back over and over again for service and still don't work right!
And buying the machine from an authorized dealer who is offering a
warranty isn't that much protection anyway -- haven't you noticed the
tendency for things not to break until right AFTER the warranty
expires? Even on a new Bernina you only get 1 year electrical parts
and 5 years mechanical parts. If I'm spending thousands of dollars on
a machine, it had better last longer than 5 yrs! So when you're
buying a new machine at full price, you're betting on a long shot --
that something serious will go wrong with it immediately that will
cost thousands of dollars to fix. Because if it DOESN'T break during
the warranty period, you paid thousands of dollars more than you had
to when you could have gotten a used machine

My experience was that I went into my local Bernina dealer asking to
trade in my Artista 180E for a new 200E a few years ago, and they told
me that they don't take trade-ins and suggest that people sell their
machines on eBay instead. So that's what I did -- I sold that
machine, and the person who bought it from me got no warranty but they
got it at less than half what I had paid for it new just a few years
before. I would have preferred to trade it in at the dealer and not
have to spend all that time writing up the description, doing all the
photos, answering questions, shipping, etc., but I didn't have that
option and neither does anyone else around here unless our dealer
changes her policy. Personally, I think she's being stupid -- I had
never even thought of buying or selling a sewing machine on eBay
before she sent me there, and I ended up buying my 200E used on eBay
so she lost the sale. If I was a dealer I would accept trade ins and
resell them with a limited warranty or rent them out as spares when
people have their machines in for service, or for people just wanting
to learn sewing who need some encouragement to take the plunge and
purchase a machine, but that's neither here nor there.

Whether you buy a new or used machine, there is always the possibility
that something will go wrong. The only way to
Caveat emptor.

--
I fear me you but warm the starved snake
Who, cherished in your breasts, will sting your hearts. (Henry VI,Shakespeare)