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#61
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It was an excellent post.
Tina "Kandice Seeber" wrote in message ... Freakin' well said, Beki!! I think the group is well-intentioned and made up of good people. I also think that they need to consider that their liberation front may not change the market to what they want to change it to, because that just isn't the way it works on ebay. I agree about the use of the term Nazi as well. While the group *is* trying to get people to not post 99 cent auctions, and to raise their prices in general, several have come forward and said that trying to police pricing just isn't fair. Some others came right out and said they *do* wish there was a price guideline that everyone had to follow, and that they should call out certain lampworkers and try to get them to change. That's what got me fired up. But Nazi just isn't the right term, and is pretty mean, actually. Here's what I posted there earlier today. I got several private messages that were positive, but most people in the thread have not responded to what I said. ""holding breath, jumping in Okay. I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, but after reading it all, I really want to now. I applaud the good intentions. I love Rita - she's fabulous, as an artist and as a person. However, I have a few issues with this Liberation Group, and I am going to post my opinions about it, while still trying to honor the fact that this whole idea is about empowering and respecting art. Issue #1, which was brought up by someone else (thank goodness, otherwise I would be too afraid to post my thoughts) - 99 cent auctions are not always about perceived value. I have said this before and I will say it again - I post 99 cent bead sets on ebay to reduce ebay fees, and because I have confidence that my beads will get a good price. I have only been disappointed once or twice. eBay is an auction house, *not* a retail outlet. It's a game to many cusotmers. People do need to ba a little more lenient about price, but I *do* understand the need to ask for prices you can accept. That means when you list something, you need to be ready for what the market decides to do with it. So admonishing people for listing at 99 cents or 9.99 or 99.99 or what have you, is really not something that I see as good. A couple of artists have actually been named here in this thread, and some have been alluded to. That's not fair. Issue #2, which is a broad and multi-faceted issue - Everyone in this art field needs to take a good long look at if and why they are not selling their pieces for what they would like to. There's a whole huge range of skill in this group. Some beadmakers / glass artists cannot command higher prices due to a whole bunch of reasons that need to be addressed. You can't just increase your prices, stand back and watch the money pour in. You need to consider your buyers. You're not letting them in on this group action - they will have no idea why you're doing what you're doing. To raise prices, you also need to raise the bar where quality is concerned. I am not just talking about the quality of the bead itself - I also mean the quality of service, and the quality of the auctions themselves. Someone posted guidelines on their web site and was torn to pieces on this forum, even though she is a buyer who spends a lot of money on lampwork. Customers need to be listened to. I know we all just want to make what we want and have it sell, but the bottom line is that the market does not always work exactly that way. There needs to be a blend of market research and artistic expression. If pink is really in this season, that's going to be what sells a lot. If you decide not to go with that flow, because you hate pink, that's totally fine, but you need to keep that in mind when pink stuff is selling for higher than your stuff. That's an over-simplified example, of course. And you know, I see a LOT of people complaining about ebay. Yet, there are successes on ebay *all the time* in the very categories we sell in. We all need to look at that and figure out *why*. I am not saying to ask those sellers for their secrets, or try and copy them. I am saying that we need to focus on bettering ourselves as artists. People have success because they make it. They pay their dues, work like dogs, have talent, and *make their success*. Stop complaining about ebay sucking. Start doing your homework and figuring out why ebay sucks for you. It's not always a "slow time of year" there. Issue #3 - ebay is not black and white. It's a grey whale, baby. There's no "one way" to make it work. There's no one answer. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of lampworkers listing there. You may think this group is large, here, but it's only a small fraction of the lampworkers listing on ebay. Your group may not get the results you're looking for, so be prepared for that. Okay - I know I have been the person to post an opposing opinion on several of these types of issues on this forum. If y'all want me to go away, just let me know. I can handle that. But the many new threads about ebay being crap, and complaining about not getting the prices you want for your beads is getting really irksome to me. Maybe it's because I am not having the same problems you all are. And you know what? No one ever asks me why. Does any one care why?"" -- Kandice Seeber Air & Earth Designs http://www.lampwork.net Wow, I have so many issues I could bring up about this concept. =o) First, I would like to comment that I am offended when people use the term Nazi lightly. There is nothing even remotely similar to lampworkers and a Nazi. Second, while I feel the concept of people placing a personal value on their own work is a good one, determining an industry standard, just because you happen to produce a product within a certain category, just won't work. That would be like asking all beadweavers to charge at least X amount of dollars per hour for their work. Their lives may be so busy that their hourly worth is tremendous, but they may not yet have all the skills to produce a quality piece of beadwork. Third, I have been involved in the beading world for over 30 years now. I started creating simple beaded pieces with my Grandmother at age 8. By age 12, I was selling simple beaded jewelry to friends, at the beach and at small craft shows. By 18 I was selling beads. By 25 I had an established retail store. While I am not the most experienced person in this industry, I am very experienced. I have made it my life to learn as much about beads in all their forms as I can. Along with that self-education comes a bit of understanding on how the market (as it relates to beads and beading) works. There will always be the person who feels they need to "undercut" the next guy to stand out. There will always be the person who feels the "value" of their time is worth more than the average market will bear. There will always be the person who understands their worth, and is willing to work with the market demand to find that happy medium. That being said, there is such a tremendous influx of lampworkers at this time, that the market will be thin. This is the progression of any industry. As the market thins, your competition increases. You can compensate for that by looking within ones self and determining what it is you as an individual can do to change. You can use your competition to better yourself. (which, I feel, is what should always be done) This same set of standard rules of business apply to any field. Beadmakers, beadsellers, beaders, etc. Your service, your reputation, your style, your adaptability, your personal input into the industry, all of these things are what can help set you apart from your competition. This is what will raise the value of what you have to offer. Not what others choose to sell for. The value of the beads I sell are in direct relation to their quality, my service, my reputation, and the volume I sell them in. They are not, nor will they ever be, in relation to what others sell theirs for. I do however, work under a standard industry guideline. I do not intentionally undercut others and I do not overprice. Were I to make my own beads for sale, I would again follow along those same guidelines. I would understand what the market can bear, I would learn where and who my customers are, and I would supply them with what they want at the prices they demand. If I were really lucky, I would be some of the very few who know how to escalate themselves to the top of that imaginary list of the best of the best.. =o) If the online auction places are not bringing you the dollar amount you feel you deserve, then find the location that will. It works better to locate your customers rather than try to force yourself upon them. While the entire bead industry can and should be viewed as one big family, it is the individuals within that family that make it what it is. A think a revolution to help others learn to value themselves as artists, craftspeople, creators, sellers, business people, etc would garner much more worth. Beki http://www.whimbeads.com |
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#62
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Very true.
Tina "Dr. Sooz" wrote ... I think there are people who suffer a lot, emotionally, over why their auctions aren't getting more bids (or any bids, in some cases). They cry about it in pubic forums everywhere. I've looked at their beads, I've even bought their beads (this is not any one person, mind you). I won't be back to buy more beads from them. Why? Because I was unhappy with the beads, and they have a lot of competition. So I don't have to go back and waste my time buying their flawed product -- I can just cross them off my list of sellers. Their holes were rough, or their beads weren't balanced, or the colors weren't lovely. Whatever it was, their product was not up to the market's professional standards, and I feel like I wasted my money. Some of those beads actually ended up in my trash basket....but I remember them well. I don't have the $$ to burn that I'd need to purchase from these folks. They've shown they have little respect for me -- why would they sell me substandard beads otherwise? Bad experiences = no money in that beadmaker's pocket. And I do tell my friends, so it ripples out. If you, whoever the "you" might be, aren't getting the sales you want (unless you're brand new at selling, of course), please, please examine your work. I don't care how long you've been doing it. You may have developed bad habits. You probably grew your craft when there was little competition if you've been doing it a long time. If you're new, or an old salt, you need to polish yourself to survive. Times have changed. You need to become excellent if you want that pie in the sky you moan about. |
#63
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This is so very absolutely true. There are many important factors in the
valuation of art. First there is the craft, the artisan skills. And that does not always depend on experience. For example, with my inferior hand and finger dexterity, I will always be a slower beader than my experience would dictate. And I'd swear some blassworkers have problems with depth perception. There is also a level of artistic education that effects work. Most people need a little education to make something well balanced (in material and weight) and well proportioned and color balanced. It's really not something that any kid could do because it "comes naturally". Sometimes people profit from formal art classes, or from workshops, or from exposure to museums. But education does make a difference. And then there is the element of serendipity. A beauty that just seems to occur, with no more effort than is given to other pieces. (And which happen more often with education and experience). It's not just the size of the bead, the cost of the materials and the time spent that determine value. These are reasons why bead prices can't be figured by formula. Tina "DreamBeadr" wrote in message ... Well, it makes sense...however, art is completely subjective. There are no two beads exactly alike, so it's harder to price fix. In addition, if you translate this concept into another area in the beading world, it also does not make sense. If you have a stay at home Mom with 3 kids beading an amulet bag in her "spare" time. Like between diaper changes, bottle washing, soccer practice, a few minutes of catching your favorite soap, making dinner, baths and bedtime, does her work represent the same value as a beadworker who devotes a full 8 hours of his or her day to creating? The answer to that question for me is which of the two above mentioned beaders is the more skilled? Who produces the higher quality product? Who has the better artistic treatment of the item? Who pays more attention to the craftsmanship and detail to assure the item they are creating will last a lifetime? Which of the two has taken the time to locate their true market? Beki http://www.whimbeads.com |
#64
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I'm glad to know that, because I really am trying to figure out pricing.
Tina "Kandice Seeber" wrote in message ... Actually, she sells a LOT. -- Kandice Seeber Air & Earth Designs http://www.lampwork.net Here's jewelry offerred by a beadmaker. http://www.blackberrybeads.com/Finis...Necklaces.html Considering the prices for these items, I guess I should be charging $250 for wholesale. I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just trying to get a feel for this. Tina ROFL - Get their prices!! I wonder if they sell any.. It surely makes your point... Mavis :-)) |
#65
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And I
think you are right that for some people it's just easier to complain than to actually DO anything. Haw haw haw! Yeah. ~~ Sooz ------- "Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance ~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html |
#66
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Ahh, you said it so beautifully Sooz...
Okay, now I'm in love with you. haw! ~~ Sooz ------- "Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance ~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html |
#67
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Right.
However, it is not undercutting to offer lesser beads for a lesser price. Tina "Dr. Sooz" wrote I don't agree with the organization, the "rules", etc. But I wholeheartedly support the feeling that undercutting is noxious and harmful to beaders and beadmakers everywhere. ~~ Sooz ------- "Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance ~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html |
#68
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What Mavis said about this being true if anything one is selling is
true. But I want to tell a particular story so you can all see how people are. I charges $55 an hour for kids parties in my entertainment co. bac in 1985. At that tim it was the going rate, but due to rising costs, I went up to $65. I had alot of competitiors in that city and we were polite with each other, but fell short of discussing price. So one person calls me on the phone and says, "look, I am going to raise my rate. To be fair to all, each of us should go up to $65." I had been at $65 for months. But, he didn't kow this. He tried to talk me in to his viewpoint, when my other 2 lines rang. On the end of each was another entertainer, telling me about him ... something was afoot. It took a few days, but the punchline hit. I was cold calling some businesses I worked with, an trying to book spring events ... his rate had dropped to $45. He cheapened himself, even though he was a quality act, and I am sure people wondered why he was so desperate. And he made all of us look greedy. But only for a time. People looked at him suspiciously, and hired all of us anyway. I presetly raised my rate to $85. And crossed my fingers. I had a way at that time to promote myself as #1, because I had just performed at the White House Easter Egg Roll. I touted my high quality and bet that people would pay my price based on the info I used to promote it. And I made the others look cheap, or ordinary ... and I won the day. I have been involved as a craftsperson since I was 16 yrs old. The question of whether or not we get paid our worth, has always been there and always will be. I suggest that you promote your artistry, show what you have and never care about the people who can't or won't pay what you ask. Yeah, and I am the one who had an emergency sale this year ... which was a different thing altogether. You mght need a better marketing plan if your stuff isn't selling at the price you want, or you might need to redo your promotional material or reassess the value of what you have. But don't sell yourself short. Only if it's an emergency ! Honeybunch |
#69
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I probably buy sets of beads more often than focal beads. Things like that
generally are most appropriately used made up into something. Also, maybe think of this in terms of another art. Making fabric. Hand made fabrics stand alone as pieces of art. But people will buy more fabric made inro clothing than fabric used as a wall hanging or kept in a collection (including one of a kind pieces of fabric). Tina "Tinkster" wrote in message news This is a really important point. The vast majority of my customers buy my beads to collect and display, not to turn into jewelry. And not to turn into jewelry to resell for a profit. |
#70
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I just posted a long post on the thread in wet canvas, that can address your
post here, so rather than typing it all again, I will be lazy "Mary - no there are not two seperate groups. The gal who posted that we should form our own group PMed me and let me know she was joking when she posted that. I'm not joining any group, because I really don't agree with some of the ideas, so I wouldn't fit. I don't think any group should have the power to tell people how to run their businesses. Suggestions are fine, but policing is not. People should feel free to do what works best for them. I think Rita's post was well-intentioned, and parts of it were even really cute and humorous. I think some of her ideas are great. However, she did contradict herself somewhat when she suggested we have a price per hour guideline (or any other pricing guideline, to "change the current pricing trends in the beadmaking/selling community"), but then said later she didn't want people telling her how to price her work. I am in agreement about not liking a group of people telling me how to price my work, unless that group of people are customers - at which point I may listen and I may take advice, if it works for me. I think forming a "union" or official group is misguided and would not get you what you really want. I think educating the public on the differences between handmade lampwork and mass-produced lampwork is great. I think there are already groups out there that do this. ISGB, regional bead societies and more. However, if people want to form a group, more power to you! I just won't be joining. I won't form my own group, or ask for factions, or try and work against the group. And Rita - I was afraid to post my views at first, because I have been raked over the coals for doing so a couple of times before in other threads, because my opinion was not in the majority. But this time I am glad I did, because the response has been very positive. I've had numerous PM's from people agreeing with me who have not posted in this thread. So there are people reading who are not posting, but some do not agree with the nature of the group. Also, keep in mind that many people who are reading and posting here do not sell on ebay, so your quote below may not be entirely accurate. Quote: And as far as ebay goes with an average of 3,000 listings in the US lampwork field that averages 5 auctions per seller for a total of approx. 600 sellers. Well this post has had over 1,000 views and nearly 100 posts. Which means that 1/6 of the selling community agrees with properly valuing their work and I see that as enough to effect a change. Not to mention how many of the readers who didn't post may agree. Unquote Basically, what I am trying to say to everyone is that I applaud Rita for what she is trying to do, because I can see that her spirit is positive. However, before just jumping in, think about it for awhile. Aren't there things we could all do on our own to improve our situations? Do we really need a "group" which actually might foster a feeling of exclusion to some, or can we make the best of the groups which are already out there? Anyway, whatever the outcome, these are just my views, and I really don't plan on changing the way I do things, because I am pretty successful on ebay and on my website these days, and it's working for me." -- Kandice Seeber Air & Earth Designs http://www.lampwork.net My website is by far the best venue, though, but takes a lot more time and energy to run than my ebay presence. So I do both, and they average out to be very good. This is great!!! When people work at it, then it can be a great system for them. I don't undervalue my work. This was one of the points I was trying to make. I work with the market to get the best prices I can while giving buyers the highest quality, most pleasing beads I possibly can. YEAH!!!!! Anyone with a little talent can do this if they work hard at it, and listen to their customers. People complain way too much and tend to think this is an easy way to earn lots of money, and think they can do so without much effort. I understand that. But also, some people don't know how to start, or how to find out the information. Sometimes it's "laziness" (i.e. let eBay sell the item for me. If I put it on there, it should automatically sell with 5million bids). I think part of this is not just "let's set prices" but the education, also. It's not just support of "aww, poor baby, you aren't getting your prices, but you need to raise them". But support should also be sharing of hints and help. But not specifically "Here's the formula for selling your items and making a million like I do". I agree with most people when someone comes on here, and says "how do I sell, and where?". There should be some research, and also, each area is different. But guiding, and hinting is good. And there *are* "here's the formula" sites out there! :-) Well, there's my 2 cents +. Kandice, don't think you are ranting. You are giving an opinion. If we can work together, this is great! As I posted over there, it's not so much a thing of price fixing/etc, but we need to come up with a way to work together, and to value our work. No matter what level! Mary Anyway. Ranting again. Time to stop now before someone whacks me with a tomato!! |
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