New Angel

escapee wrote:


Actually, it means taking responsibility for ourselves and our acts, not the
*******ization which was given by Elizabeth. I posted the definition, she added
her little slant to it. Does it often. So do I. We all do. I'm finished with
this discussion, it's utterly pointless.

I copied the definition directly out of the dictionary. Where'd yours
come from?

And of course I added my slant to it. You're using your slant to
suggest that it would benefit me. If you'd like to have a discussion,
say so and we can have one. So far, you've been calling me nasty names
and lecturing me. That's not a discussion, Victoria.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Cheryl Isaak wrote:


I repeat - have you even read the above, the two men who gave birth to the
movement. Neither of you capture the utter hopeless that both espouse as the
human condition.

I read them both and hated them both. I refused and still refuse to see
the world the way Sartre saw it. I'd have to kill myself if I saw it
that way.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Dianne Lewandowski wrote:


I got terribly curious. I remember wading through "The Plague" while in
college. It was such a morbid, distressing novel. I barely remember
what it is about. So long ago. But the thoughts of Cheryl, Elizabeth,
and Victoria piqued my curiosity, so I looked this up:

The existentialist...thinks it very distressing that God does not exist,
because all possibility of finding values in a heaven of ideas
disappears along with Him; there can no longer be a priori of God, since
there is no infinite and perfect consciousness to think it. Nowhere is
it written that the Good exists, that we must be honest, that we must
not lie; because the fact is that we are on a plane where there are only
men. Dostoyevsky said, If God didn't exist, everything would be
possible. That is the very starting point of existentialism. Indeed,
everything is permissible if God does not exist, and as a result man is
forlorn, because neither within him nor without does he find anything to
cling to. --Jean Paul Sartre

Thank you, Dianne. This is why I said it was a crock.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

escapee wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:01:12 GMT, "Dr. Brat" opined:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

I repeat - have you even read the above, the two men who gave birth to the
movement. Neither of you capture the utter hopeless that both espouse as the
human condition.

I read them both and hated them both. I refused and still refuse to see
the world the way Sartre saw it. I'd have to kill myself if I saw it
that way.

Yet, you say living well is the best revenge. What revenge and for what?

It doesn't matter for what. You don't get it, do you? The point is
that living well is the best way to overcome the obstacles that life
puts in front of you. Live well in spite of those things. My mother
used to tell me that and it took me a long time to understand what she
meant. I don't see any contradiction between wanting to live well in
spite of the odds and thinking that Sartre was wrong to describe life as
hopeless.

You
hate people, yet you didn't know them.

Who do I hate? Cheryl told me to read Sartre and Camus. I assume she
meant their books, not the authors themselves. So I responded that I
had read them (the books) and hated them (the books). You really are
digging deep to convince yourself that you're right about me at this
point, aren't you?

The very thing you always say about me.

Always? Hardly. I don't think I've ever said that you hate me.

That I don't know you. Interesting thing, that.

It is interesting. You make wild assumptions about me. I criticize
Clinton and you assume I hate him. I bring up an example of a
mis-communication between me and my husband and you assume I have an
awful marriage. Why is that? Why do you need to make assumptions about
me? If you have trouble understanding the way I express myself, why not
ask for clarification? Why get defensive when you express your
assumptions and I correct you?

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

escapee wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:02:22 GMT, "Dr. Brat" opined:

Thank you, Dianne. This is why I said it was a crock.

What does this mean in the above statement by Adrienne Rich? By saying ONE
paragraph in an ocean of philosophical reasoning, existentialism, you think it's
all a crock?

Do you really think that I've judged an entire philosophy based on one
paragraph? Did I not say several times that I have read works by Sartre
and Camus? Why are you now accusing me of dismissing it based on one
paragraph? Is it because you assume that I could not possibly have read
it carefully and decided that it doesn't work for me? It works for you,
so it must work for everybody?

I think that the paragraph Dianne posted gets to the heart of what is
wrong with existentialism, but it's certainly not all I base my
judgement on.

A crock? What is this about, anyway? Where is your illumination
you think the most important thing one woman can do for another? I'm truly
curious. If you think this is an attack of some sort, I assure you it is not.
I genuinely want to know what you mean in the above quote. Why quote something
which promotes life expansion, yet, when another woman gives you an opening into
something full of useful tools, you call it a crock?

I disagree that existentialism is full of useful tools. I disagree that
you are giving me an opening. I have no reason to trust your motives at
this point, Victoria. You have slammed me into the wall and now you're
using my .sig to try to dig me deeper. You'll excuse me if I fail to
see an opportunity for illumination in your behavior towards me these
past few days.

I'm sorry. I'm tired of this and I'm tired of you. You don't get to be
nasty and the pretend that it's only for my own good and you're really
just trying to expand me. At the moment, living well means killfiling you.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

In article , "Dr. Brat"
writes:

I read them both and hated them both.

Thank goodness I was spared both, then! After college it was one of those
things I wanted to read when I had time, because it seemed to be something a
well-educated person should have read, but there were always more intriguing
new books that were a higher priority than classics.

Currently slogging through the latest on my various ailments, and finding
several treatments that are different from what I've tried in the past. I'm
currently doing the Dr. Erika energy plan (l-carnitine and co-Q-10), and have a
couple others in reserve if that doesn't work. Once I get back to health, I
can struggle through the deep philosophic stuff that I've been too fogged in to
read.


--
Finished 5/21/04 - Fireman's Wife
WIP: Fireman's Prayer (#2), Amid Amish Life, Angel of Autumn, Calif Sampler,
Holiday Snowglobe

Paralegal - Writer - Editor - Researcher
http://hometown.aol.com/kmc528/KMC.html

If titles were copyrightable
Than we could have no more books about Love , women etc....
I had somebody taking an Exhibition `s name , nothing i can do about
it .

Go reread Camus and Sartre

I repeat - have you even read the above, the two men who gave birth to the
movement. Neither of you capture the utter hopeless that both espouse as the
human condition.

Cheryl
Cheryl i agree with you , that one should read the at least some of
the above mentioned writers , before trying yto interpret the meaning
of this term.
I read some of their writing and some interpretations and i am not
sure i understand enough of it. But, there is one point that bugs me
personally , Sarte, never lived as grown up in a `conventioanl` ,
household so how does his outlook really relate to `regular` people
living `regular` life ? or why should we really `accept` his out look
on life ... When my father`s Aunt and her life partner [both
Anarchists who were close friends of his ] had their first son ,
Sartre wrote to them :"what the hell are YOU going to do with kids ?"
This and some other `private` events , gave me a very interesting
point of view about `famous/important` thinkers, and how to relate to
their Philosophies ...
mirjam

Maybe both of you forgot he wrote this after WW1, The Communist
revolution[s], the Spanish war, and on the threshold of WW2, when
Europe sees the rise of Natie terror.
mirjam

Dianne Lewandowski wrote:


I got terribly curious. I remember wading through "The Plague" while in
college. It was such a morbid, distressing novel. I barely remember
what it is about. So long ago. But the thoughts of Cheryl, Elizabeth,
and Victoria piqued my curiosity, so I looked this up:

The existentialist...thinks it very distressing that God does not exist,
because all possibility of finding values in a heaven of ideas
disappears along with Him; there can no longer be a priori of God, since
there is no infinite and perfect consciousness to think it. Nowhere is
it written that the Good exists, that we must be honest, that we must
not lie; because the fact is that we are on a plane where there are only
men. Dostoyevsky said, If God didn't exist, everything would be
possible. That is the very starting point of existentialism. Indeed,
everything is permissible if God does not exist, and as a result man is
forlorn, because neither within him nor without does he find anything to
cling to. --Jean Paul Sartre

Thank you, Dianne. This is why I said it was a crock.

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

On 6/26/04 7:42 PM, in article , "Dianne
Lewandowski" wrote:

Cheryl Isaak wrote:
I repeat - have you even read the above, the two men [ed. Camus and Sartre]
who gave birth to the
movement. Neither of you capture the utter hopeless that both espouse as the
human condition.

I got terribly curious. I remember wading through "The Plague" while in
college. It was such a morbid, distressing novel. I barely remember
what it is about. So long ago. But the thoughts of Cheryl, Elizabeth,
and Victoria piqued my curiosity, so I looked this up:

The existentialist...thinks it very distressing that God does not exist,
because all possibility of finding values in a heaven of ideas
disappears along with Him; there can no longer be a priori of God, since
there is no infinite and perfect consciousness to think it. Nowhere is
it written that the Good exists, that we must be honest, that we must
not lie; because the fact is that we are on a plane where there are only
men. Dostoyevsky said, If God didn't exist, everything would be
possible. That is the very starting point of existentialism. Indeed,
everything is permissible if God does not exist, and as a result man is
forlorn, because neither within him nor without does he find anything to
cling to. --Jean Paul Sartre

Dianne



Thank you - that is one of the quotes I was thinking of, there is one by
Camus that is even more depressing.

Cheryl