OT Michael Jackson Trial

Of course you loved him - you were a child - children respond with love to
their abusers. That is another reason jurors find it so hard to believe a
victims story. They think that a child would hate being violated - and hate
their abuser - but children are able to separate the deed from the doer.
Something we lose as we become adults. You can love him and not feel bad
about that. Sound like you have reached a level where you can forgive him
for what he did - you will never forget - but if you can forgive you will be
healthy for that. He was a sad and pathetic old man who hurt and scared you
terribly when you were a child.

--
http://community.webshots.com/user/snigdibbly
SNIGDIBBLY
~e~
"
/ \
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/snigdibbly.
http://www.ebaystores.com/snigdibbly...ox&refid=store
"Sharon Harper" wrote in message
u...
Luckily that old goat hit the turf (ie passed on) way before my kids were
born. After the episode when I was 21 I swore black and blue the next
time
I saw gran would be when he was dead. Didn't have to wait long - he
passed
six months later in his sleep. The ironic thing was I was so damn sad.
Despite what he'd done I loved him. He'd always been generous with me,
and
treated me as if I was his granddaughter. Actually treated me better
(apart
from the abuse) than his wife (my gran). (shaking head with sad smile)
sometimes there just aren't words.

--
Sharon from Melbourne Australia (Queen of Down Under)
http://www.geocities.com/shazrules/craft.html (takes a while to load)
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/shazrules/my_photos (same as website but
quicker)

"SNIGDIBBLY" wrote in message
news:ms7se.1955$fV.540@okepread06...
Keep your children away from that old goat!!

--
http://community.webshots.com/user/snigdibbly
SNIGDIBBLY
~e~
"
/ \
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/snigdibbly.
http://www.ebaystores.com/snigdibbly...ox&refid=store
"Sharon Harper" wrote in message
u...
I too think you said it better than anyone could Tina. But also there
is
the problem that the children who do speak up are often not believed.
Hard
as it is to believe that that is the case it is true. I tried to tell
my
mother for 7 years about my grandfather and every couple a months we'd
go
back and visit and off we'd go again. I mean really when your seven
year
old daughter tells you "I don't want *** kissing me because he puts his
tongue in my mouth" you would do something wouldn't you? Nope. Went
on
til
I was 21 and then when I told his wife she laughed and said he was like
that
with all the girls. To this day she refuses to believe me.

--
Sharon from Melbourne Australia (Queen of Down Under)
http://www.geocities.com/shazrules/craft.html (takes a while to load)
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/shazrules/my_photos (same as website but
quicker)

"Mika" wrote in message
...
Thank you Tina. You said it so much better than I could find the words
for.

Mika
http://community.webshots.com/user/mikasdrms

"Tina" wrote in message
oups.com...
The problem I had with the prosecution's case was that there were
not
more victims to put forward. If MJ is a habitual abuser where are
all
the victims. snip They are also surrounded by people who do not
tell
them "NO", because of the fame and fortune.

Linda, just another of my two cents here....

For one, the "victims" are often embarrassed, ashamed and afraid -
to
begin with. They don't want to come forward publicly. Imagine what
it
would be like for you if someone charged you and your spouse with
some
sort of lude sexual conduct. How do you think you would feel about
going into a public court room, to have at least 20 people hear,
question, ridicule and insult your personal bedroom choices? And
YOURS
are more than likely "normal".

Add to that, these are children. In the process of the abuse, they
are
threatened, demeaned and demoralized. They are told things like,
"You
want this, you want me to make you feel good, don't you?" The bad
thing about sexual molestation, is that our own human bodies betray
us.
Yes, of course "it feels good". Your body says so, it reacts so -
so
just imagine what it is like for a child. Then they are threatened,
"If you tell anybody that I 'made you feel good' I will punish
you/hurt
you/hurt your mom, etc.'

Why would they want to go into a courtroom to tell a bunch of adults
that a really famous, really rich guy, made them "feel good", gave
them
expensive gifts, promised them cool trips, etc. just because what
that
other grown up did (societally) is a really, REALLY bad thing?

Which brings me to your own answer - these rich, highly public
people
are surrounded by "followers" who don't tell them "NO". Would a
child
who is enticed with money, expensive gifts, a "Never Land"
atmosphere -
tell this guy "NO"?

And then I hear the argument, that I really, in truly, heard in
court -
"Well she didn't say no." These were adults, grown ups, friends of
her
fathers and a family member. If her dad, grandfather, friends, etc.
are telling her this is what she should do, telling her that it is
ok -
is she going to argue with them? She is now confused, afraid,
ashamed,
etc. What kind of decision making capability does a child have in
that
position? Never mind this is a child who shouldn't be put in a
position to make that kind of decision in the first place?

I think there are a LOT more kids out there that were molested at
the
"Never Land Ranch". JMHO. I also think like any normal child, they
are too afraid to come forward. I think their sane, rational and
non
money-grubbing parents don't want their children put through the
public
harrassment, scrutiny and embarrassment that those other children
went
through. I think they would rather deal with it alone, in the
privacy
of their own family - than to have it plastered all over national
television.

That's just what I think.

Tina

No Snigs, I did not want more children to be traumatized by that
"freakazoid". What I meant that in all these years there must be more
victims out there who suffer in silence. Sometimes to face your demons and
exorcise them is very beneficial. That is when the real healing can begin.
JMHO, Linda

Marisa -
"In general" I don't support the death penalty either. I used to think it
was the only solution, but we have so many examples of so many prisoners who
have been spending years & years on death row & are finally found to be
innocent through DNA testing. I understand that many states won't spend the
money to do the DNA testing "because it's too expensive"! If there was a
way to put criminals to death who are absolutely, without a doubt guilty, I
might feel differently, but there just aren't a lot of cases with proof
positive. Sorry to keep the thread going, but just wanted to add my humble
opinion regarding the death penalty

Pauline
"DrQuilter" wrote in message
...
I meant in general I don't support the death penalty.

SNIGDIBBLY wrote:

Unfortunately - causing irreversible harm to a child - is not a death
penalty crime. Children carry the damage done by sexual abuse to the
grave.


--
Dr. Quilter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mvignali
(take the dog out for a walk)

That is one reason. Killing one inocent invalidates the whole idea. And
don't get me started on the DNA testing. I think it is probably
artificially expensive because the procedures are cheap!

But my problem goes beyond that, I cannot understand why government
sanctiond killing is OK. Same reason why I cannot justify war.

Pauline O'Connell wrote:

Marisa -
"In general" I don't support the death penalty either. I used to think it
was the only solution, but we have so many examples of so many prisoners who
have been spending years & years on death row & are finally found to be
innocent through DNA testing. I understand that many states won't spend the
money to do the DNA testing "because it's too expensive"! If there was a
way to put criminals to death who are absolutely, without a doubt guilty, I
might feel differently, but there just aren't a lot of cases with proof
positive. Sorry to keep the thread going, but just wanted to add my humble
opinion regarding the death penalty



--
Dr. Quilter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mvignali
(take the dog out for a walk)

I hear you Marissa, but I'm open to putting to death, for example, the man
who killed his WIVES & CHILDREN by putting a bullet between their eyes.
This man had children with his own children & other unspeakable acts. On
the other hand, I know these kind of criminals don't do well in prisons, so
perhaps that is a worse punishment for them - to have to live amongst
criminals who despise him & would take his life at the first opportunity.
It's such a tough call - & our laws so need to be revisited & revised. We
have so many on death row in California - & I'm sure many are innocent.
Often it is the poor that can't affort good representation that end up in
prison.

Pauline
"DrQuilter" wrote in message
...
That is one reason. Killing one inocent invalidates the whole idea. And
don't get me started on the DNA testing. I think it is probably
artificially expensive because the procedures are cheap!

But my problem goes beyond that, I cannot understand why government
sanctiond killing is OK. Same reason why I cannot justify war.

Pauline O'Connell wrote:

Marisa -
"In general" I don't support the death penalty either. I used to think
it
was the only solution, but we have so many examples of so many prisoners
who
have been spending years & years on death row & are finally found to be
innocent through DNA testing. I understand that many states won't spend
the
money to do the DNA testing "because it's too expensive"! If there was
a
way to put criminals to death who are absolutely, without a doubt
guilty, I
might feel differently, but there just aren't a lot of cases with proof
positive. Sorry to keep the thread going, but just wanted to add my
humble
opinion regarding the death penalty



--
Dr. Quilter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mvignali
(take the dog out for a walk)

Don't bet on the prisoners punishing offenders. If there is any perceived
threat child abusers are put in segregation with other like offenders and
"protected" from the general population. I used to be so certain that I was
against the death penalty and now I am conflicted. I'm really straddling
the fence now days on this issue. It is the factor of poverty that puts me
in this position because it is a well known fact that there is no equal
representation in courts when it comes to finances. The wealthy are rarely
convicted and when they do get convicted they have probation or lighter
sentences. Race is also an issue. Until there is equality I don't know
that any one should be executed.

--
http://community.webshots.com/user/snigdibbly
SNIGDIBBLY
~e~
"
/ \
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/snigdibbly.
http://www.ebaystores.com/snigdibbly...ox&refid=store
"Pauline O'Connell" wrote in message
...
I hear you Marissa, but I'm open to putting to death, for example, the man
who killed his WIVES & CHILDREN by putting a bullet between their eyes.
This man had children with his own children & other unspeakable acts. On
the other hand, I know these kind of criminals don't do well in prisons,
so
perhaps that is a worse punishment for them - to have to live amongst
criminals who despise him & would take his life at the first opportunity.
It's such a tough call - & our laws so need to be revisited & revised. We
have so many on death row in California - & I'm sure many are innocent.
Often it is the poor that can't affort good representation that end up in
prison.

Pauline
"DrQuilter" wrote in message
...
That is one reason. Killing one inocent invalidates the whole idea. And
don't get me started on the DNA testing. I think it is probably
artificially expensive because the procedures are cheap!

But my problem goes beyond that, I cannot understand why government
sanctiond killing is OK. Same reason why I cannot justify war.

Pauline O'Connell wrote:

Marisa -
"In general" I don't support the death penalty either. I used to think
it
was the only solution, but we have so many examples of so many
prisoners
who
have been spending years & years on death row & are finally found to be
innocent through DNA testing. I understand that many states won't
spend
the
money to do the DNA testing "because it's too expensive"! If there was
a
way to put criminals to death who are absolutely, without a doubt
guilty, I
might feel differently, but there just aren't a lot of cases with proof
positive. Sorry to keep the thread going, but just wanted to add my
humble
opinion regarding the death penalty



--
Dr. Quilter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mvignali
(take the dog out for a walk)

I totally believe in the death penalty and wish we had it here in Canada.
Just as an example, within a few days a murderer will be released from
prison - she and her husband murdered two teenage girls plus her own
sister - they tortured and sexually abused these girls - she (Karla Homolka)
and her husband (Paul Bernardo) were equally guilty but she decided to help
the officials and only had to serve 12 years - her husband got life. Video
tapes that their lawyers had proving they both took part and enjoyed
murdering these girls were hidden till after the sentencing. This to me is
ludicrous - that lawyer should be in prison with them as far as I'm
concerned. K and P certainly deserve the death penalty. The parents of
these murdered girls got a death penalty of their own - they'll never see
their daughters again and will be forever haunted by what these two
murderers did to them. I'll just never understand the justice system where
a person cannot be tried for murder the second time (when more evidence has
been found), but a person who was found guilty and got the death penalty (in
parts of the U.S.) can in later years have his sentence commuted to life or
whatever. Seems to me the losers of this world have a lot more rights than
the ordinary law-abiding citizen. Something's not right. Just my opinion.

Sharon (N.B.)
.................................................. ...........................
....

"SNIGDIBBLY" wrote in message
news:ddUve.9675$fV.3963@okepread06...
Don't bet on the prisoners punishing offenders. If there is any perceived
threat child abusers are put in segregation with other like offenders and
"protected" from the general population. I used to be so certain that I
was
against the death penalty and now I am conflicted. I'm really straddling
the fence now days on this issue. It is the factor of poverty that puts
me
in this position because it is a well known fact that there is no equal
representation in courts when it comes to finances. The wealthy are
rarely
convicted and when they do get convicted they have probation or lighter
sentences. Race is also an issue. Until there is equality I don't know
that any one should be executed.

--
http://community.webshots.com/user/snigdibbly
SNIGDIBBLY
~e~
"
/ \
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/snigdibbly.
http://www.ebaystores.com/snigdibbly...ox&refid=store
"Pauline O'Connell" wrote in message
...
I hear you Marissa, but I'm open to putting to death, for example, the
man
who killed his WIVES & CHILDREN by putting a bullet between their eyes.
This man had children with his own children & other unspeakable acts.
On
the other hand, I know these kind of criminals don't do well in prisons,
so
perhaps that is a worse punishment for them - to have to live amongst
criminals who despise him & would take his life at the first
opportunity.
It's such a tough call - & our laws so need to be revisited & revised.
We
have so many on death row in California - & I'm sure many are innocent.
Often it is the poor that can't affort good representation that end up
in
prison.

Pauline
"DrQuilter" wrote in message
...
That is one reason. Killing one inocent invalidates the whole idea. And
don't get me started on the DNA testing. I think it is probably
artificially expensive because the procedures are cheap!

But my problem goes beyond that, I cannot understand why government
sanctiond killing is OK. Same reason why I cannot justify war.

Pauline O'Connell wrote:

Marisa -
"In general" I don't support the death penalty either. I used to
think
it
was the only solution, but we have so many examples of so many
prisoners
who
have been spending years & years on death row & are finally found to
be
innocent through DNA testing. I understand that many states won't
spend
the
money to do the DNA testing "because it's too expensive"! If there
was
a
way to put criminals to death who are absolutely, without a doubt
guilty, I
might feel differently, but there just aren't a lot of cases with
proof
positive. Sorry to keep the thread going, but just wanted to add my
humble
opinion regarding the death penalty



--
Dr. Quilter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mvignali
(take the dog out for a walk)

I like the idea of tying up their sorry souls rotting in prison.
Why let them check out so easily? Cost too much anyway to get them
to the point you can actually kill them.
Often it is the bad that end up in prison IMO.


TAria


Pauline O'Connell wrote:

I hear you Marissa, but I'm open to putting to death, for example, the man
who killed his WIVES & CHILDREN by putting a bullet between their eyes.
This man had children with his own children & other unspeakable acts. On
the other hand, I know these kind of criminals don't do well in prisons, so
perhaps that is a worse punishment for them - to have to live amongst
criminals who despise him & would take his life at the first opportunity.
It's such a tough call - & our laws so need to be revisited & revised. We
have so many on death row in California - & I'm sure many are innocent.
Often it is the poor that can't affort good representation that end up in
prison.

Pauline