'splain to me about 'band saws'

wrote in message
oups.com...

glassman wrote:

Foil will always be viewed as a sissy, girly, newbie, hobby medium to
the
"real men" that use lead came. I do agree that foil does look better in
many applications, but a true camer will always think that thread lead
is
equal to foil in appearance. The one negative to be said about lead is
that
it's really really dirty and messy. You can do foil in your home. I use
both
equally.


well, there you go...first of all, the 'real men' quote should be a
dead give away
what's really going on here (!!!) but i don't see how anyone can
possibly equate
the work of Louis B. Tiffany with 'hobby medium'....

as a non-leader...what's 'thread lead'??

i'm sure there are times when lead is the correct medium of
choice...but i have
no desire to use it...but then again, my work isn't klunky and large
scale...

just how 'thin' can you get lead lines with came? i guess i haven't
looked hard
enough for work done in lead came...what i remember of it, isn't that
attractive..
at least to my eye....point me in a direction so i can see a finished
lead project..
remember, i've been away from this field for years...maybe it 'got
beautiful' in
the interium....???

arlene

In the past two weeks, another artisan and I restored 3 windows that were
about 100 yrs old, all made with 1/8" lead. These are very delicate
designs, 1 of the panels had about 300 pieces, the other two had about 200
and 100 each.

The worst part about the thin lead is that there isn't much glass coverage
with the leaf of the lead, and therefore, not much room to cement the
panels for waterproofing and rigidity.

But when you have less than 3/64" tolerance on a piece and these panels were
made before the advent of the electric grinder, it's right remarkable that
they could cut these intricate designs and even build a window of the
intricacy of these.

Personally, I like the look of came better than foil, even in a small
panel. What is dirty and messy about lead is the cementing part...and if
you know how to do it, even that isn't too bad. I'm trying to get JavaHut
to make me a video tape on cementing. :) And of course, if you have one
of my Zing brushes, the polishing and cleanup is a virtual breeze.

i'm a foiler myself, don't care for the look of came nor the cementing
process. I also don't want to have to restore my work 20 years from now. m

"michele" wrote in message
...
i'm a foiler myself, don't care for the look of came nor the cementing
process. I also don't want to have to restore my work 20 years from now. m


Are you saying your foiled work is used in exterior applications?

wrote in message
oups.com...

Moonraker wrote:

In the past two weeks, another artisan and I restored 3 windows that
were
about 100 yrs old, all made with 1/8" lead. These are very delicate
designs, 1 of the panels had about 300 pieces, the other two had about
200
and 100 each.



Mr. Raker,

I need to SEE what you're talking about...can you send me a photo?
I did a google search for leaded windows and still didn't see anything
that compared to Tiffany...is there a place to see what you are talking
about? number of pieces isn't a good way to demonstrate your point...
i want to see what you mean. if possible, send it to my email address
please.

thanks

Your hung up on Tiffany, not the only person to compare to of that era, and
Tiffany certainly used lead cames as often as anyone else. He wasn't the
"end all, be all" of stained glass. He just hired the people that knew how
to do it. and he knew how to promote his work. I say "his" because it is
the name on the building/company, he just had the money and some great
design ideas that he passed on to his glass designers, and glaziers who knew
how to execute.

The "art pieces" with small piece construction used a great deal of foil IN
COMBINATION WITH lead came.
Morse Museum of American Art, Winter Park, FL, send them an email and ask
their exalted opinion on the matter. LaFarge used lead, Maitland Armstrong
did as much, if not more intricate work as anyone else and used lead.
Why do you need to see? Detail is detail, if you take a piece of 1/8"lead
to go around a flower petal, or use a piece of 3/16 foil on it, when you
include a gap for heart, you are the same size with the same coverage and
your foil has no weatherproofing. but yes, it is a stiffer material.

For someone that has had a stained glass studio in the past, you sure don't
know much, regardless of the time away. What sort of things did you do?
Only in foil and on a small scale? Without a grinder, and bet you don't
groze either. Name Isenberg ring a bell?

yes, but i protect it with a sheet of tempered on the exterior which allows
the client the option of removing the piece if they sell the home. It also
allows removal in the event of hurricanes, and keeps the neighbor from
bankruptcy if their kid throws a baseball, a golfer hits a slice, or the
yard guy throws a rock. The cheapo clear glass takes the hit.

"Moonraker" wrote in message
. ..

"michele" wrote in message
...
i'm a foiler myself, don't care for the look of came nor the cementing
process. I also don't want to have to restore my work 20 years from now.
m


Are you saying your foiled work is used in exterior applications?

So, it's not exposed to the elements.

I just wonder how frequently you'd be "restoring" those panels if they were
not protected with the safety glass?



"michele" wrote in message
...
yes, but i protect it with a sheet of tempered on the exterior which
allows
the client the option of removing the piece if they sell the home. It also
allows removal in the event of hurricanes, and keeps the neighbor from
bankruptcy if their kid throws a baseball, a golfer hits a slice, or the
yard guy throws a rock. The cheapo clear glass takes the hit.

"Moonraker" wrote in message
. ..

"michele" wrote in message
...
i'm a foiler myself, don't care for the look of came nor the cementing
process. I also don't want to have to restore my work 20 years from
now.
m


Are you saying your foiled work is used in exterior applications?

"Former Lurker" wrote in message
...

Your hung up on Tiffany, not the only person to compare to of that era,
and
Tiffany certainly used lead cames as often as anyone else. He wasn't the
"end all, be all" of stained glass. He just hired the people that knew
how
to do it. and he knew how to promote his work. I say "his" because it is
the name on the building/company, he just had the money and some great
design ideas that he passed on to his glass designers, and glaziers who
knew
how to execute.

The "art pieces" with small piece construction used a great deal of foil
IN
COMBINATION WITH lead came.
Morse Museum of American Art, Winter Park, FL, send them an email and ask
their exalted opinion on the matter. LaFarge used lead, Maitland
Armstrong
did as much, if not more intricate work as anyone else and used lead.
Why do you need to see? Detail is detail, if you take a piece of 1/8"lead
to go around a flower petal, or use a piece of 3/16 foil on it, when you
include a gap for heart, you are the same size with the same coverage and
your foil has no weatherproofing. but yes, it is a stiffer material.

For someone that has had a stained glass studio in the past, you sure
don't
know much, regardless of the time away. What sort of things did you do?
Only in foil and on a small scale? Without a grinder, and bet you don't
groze either. Name Isenberg ring a bell?

hey, Mr. Lurker...

you sure sound like a genuine Tiffany expert.

I was wondering, do you know if the Tiffany studios employed the "turbo
soldering" techniques that seem to be so popular now in production glass
studios?

Not as often as churches do, they all use plexi or glass around here to
protect and they still need restoring every once in a while. It's been 30
plus years and i have yet to need to restore any of my work. I actually have
one large, heavy sucker that i did in '74, it has been more places than most
people, has a couple cracked pieces, but no bowing, no fatigue. I say we
should all agree to disagree as we'll never give up our own opinion over
lead vs. foil. (or top vs bottom posting ;) m

"Moonraker" wrote in message
. ..
So, it's not exposed to the elements.

I just wonder how frequently you'd be "restoring" those panels if they
were
not protected with the safety glass?



"michele" wrote in message
...
yes, but i protect it with a sheet of tempered on the exterior which
allows
the client the option of removing the piece if they sell the home. It
also
allows removal in the event of hurricanes, and keeps the neighbor from
bankruptcy if their kid throws a baseball, a golfer hits a slice, or the
yard guy throws a rock. The cheapo clear glass takes the hit.

"Moonraker" wrote in message
. ..

"michele" wrote in message
...
i'm a foiler myself, don't care for the look of came nor the cementing
process. I also don't want to have to restore my work 20 years from
now.
m


Are you saying your foiled work is used in exterior applications?

"michele" wrote in message
...
Not as often as churches do, they all use plexi or glass around here to
protect and they still need restoring every once in a while. It's been 30
plus years and i have yet to need to restore any of my work. I actually
have
one large, heavy sucker that i did in '74, it has been more places than
most
people, has a couple cracked pieces, but no bowing, no fatigue. I say we
should all agree to disagree as we'll never give up our own opinion over
lead vs. foil. (or top vs bottom posting ;) m


Ya know? I think foil has it's place. Making silly little sailboats, for
example.

Seriously...I have foil panels I made 20+ years ago that are just fine. I
just would never expose a foiled panel to the elements. There's a guy
nearby that makes 4'x4' and larger bath windows with foil. I think he's
crazy, but people keep buying them. He installs them without any other
glazing......!!!!

I'm not "anti-foil", per se. I just prefer to work with lead. Foiling
aggravates me because I can't make the lines "perfect", as smooth and
straight and even as I can the lead lines. A lot of what I do has bevels
in it, and I just don't believe that 1.5mil copper is strong enough to
handle the extra weight of the bevels.

And I bottom posted this one just to show you I know how!!! ;)

PS...I just started back through re-reading all those magazines you sent
me. Thanks again.

Former Lurker wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Moonraker wrote:

In the past two weeks, another artisan and I restored 3 windows that
were
about 100 yrs old, all made with 1/8" lead. These are very delicate
designs, 1 of the panels had about 300 pieces, the other two had about
200
and 100 each.



Mr. Raker,

I need to SEE what you're talking about...can you send me a photo?
I did a google search for leaded windows and still didn't see anything
that compared to Tiffany...is there a place to see what you are talking
about? number of pieces isn't a good way to demonstrate your point...
i want to see what you mean. if possible, send it to my email address
please.

thanks

Your hung up on Tiffany, not the only person to compare to of that era, and
Tiffany certainly used lead cames as often as anyone else. He wasn't the
"end all, be all" of stained glass. He just hired the people that knew how
to do it. and he knew how to promote his work. I say "his" because it is
the name on the building/company, he just had the money and some great
design ideas that he passed on to his glass designers, and glaziers who knew
how to execute.

The "art pieces" with small piece construction used a great deal of foil IN
COMBINATION WITH lead came.
Morse Museum of American Art, Winter Park, FL, send them an email and ask
their exalted opinion on the matter. LaFarge used lead, Maitland Armstrong
did as much, if not more intricate work as anyone else and used lead.
Why do you need to see? Detail is detail, if you take a piece of 1/8"lead
to go around a flower petal, or use a piece of 3/16 foil on it, when you
include a gap for heart, you are the same size with the same coverage and
your foil has no weatherproofing. but yes, it is a stiffer material.

For someone that has had a stained glass studio in the past, you sure don't
know much, regardless of the time away. What sort of things did you do?
Only in foil and on a small scale? Without a grinder, and bet you don't
groze either. Name Isenberg ring a bell?

Dear Lurker...(do you have a name?)

i dont' think you have any right to question what i did 20 years
ago...you don't have
a clue...where did you get the idea that i didn't have a grinder? i
just never had a band saw..and i'm not sure i want one...what is your
point or are you just trying to pick a fight here? i happen to have a
preference for foil...does this make me a fraud? a horrible person?
what is your problem?

i asked for photos...not words...Moonraker sent me a recent piece he
restored..
yes, it's gorgeous...but it's NOT Tiffany...

....it seems to me that many many of the great names in art (not just
glass) have all had artisans doing the 'grunt' work for them...it's
nothing new...
Tiffany had a flare all his own...sure, there are others..
Michaelangelo
wasn't the only one who left his name in art history...what's your
problem with that?
If i say i'm crazy about Van Gogh, do you think i have to like all of
the Impressionists
equally as well??? I happen to like what Tiffany did and the era in
which he did it...

calm down...can you criticize without throwing stones???

sheesh...

arlene