Ot i wanted for once to see

Hi, Cindy. Interesting comments. This past spring, a gentleman wrote a
book. I believe he is an anthropologist, sociologist, something along
those lines. The book created a lot of stir in the academic community
because his hyposthesis is that everywhere on the earth, as far back as
we can discern, man has ALWAYS had some kind of religion.

Now, I haven't read his book, and just read a page or so review on his
book that appeared in USAToday. I have my own theories, and it's called
"power". Whether man or beast, we live in groups that co-exist.
Somebody gets to be top dog. Sometimes that is shared. But normally
there's ONE. Now, the rest of the group has questions, and somebody has
to answer them. Who do they look up to? Their leader. He grasps at
straws, eats mushrooms to get visions, and decides which way to answer.
If his answer makes sense at the time, he's more able to convince them
the next time a question comes up.

Religions come and go. Mormons started their's quite late in the
evolutionary scheme of things. Christians argue over dispensationlism
vs the other side (can't remember term at the moment). It starts with
one man for whom others follow. For whatever reason. And they ALL
claim their's is the ONLY one that's true. So, the rest of us are
always wrong. grin

I don't think most humans can live without religion. But I DO think we
need a new myth. The current one just doesn't make sense anymore, and
hasn't since man was able to think (and not be hung for it), write and
make decisions without threat of hanging. I think Arthur Clarke's
version is neat: We were seeded by aliens. big grin Heck, it makes
as much sense to me.

Thank the lord we don't live in colonial Virginia or we'd still be put
in stocks and branded. We've come a long way, thanks to our founding
fathers who put a WIDE separation between church and government. Too
bad Judge Moore can't grasp this concept. I notice there aren't any
muslims praying around the granite sculpture. Or American Indians, nor
Buddhists.

Dianne



Cindy Clayton wrote:
On 24 Aug 2003 02:46:15 GMT, ekoluvr (Tia
Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) wrote:


From: "Aynthem"

Perhaps the solution is to simply get rid of religions. ................

Sounds good but wouldn't work with humans! We need that "higher" entity --
who or what ever it may be -- to thank or blame as the case may be.



Just a reminder, Tia Mary, that not *all* humans feel this need.

Humankind taken as a whole, especially over the span of recorded
history, does display the tendency to put its hopes and fears into
godheads--but it isn't necessarily hard-coded into the human psyche! I
was raised without religious indoctrination, as were many people, and
I don't suffer from "deity envy," not even some of the time.

I agree that it's not feasible to get rid of all religions, but I
disagree that it's because of some inner need. Religions are a matter
of habit and tradition, and these are hard to budge.

Cheers,

Cindy Clayton
Houston, Texas, USA

Thank you Lynne for a very well writen examplary Hypocritical letter.
mirjam


Sorry, Mirjam, but while I'm sure that all of us were saddened by the
lastest act of terrorism in Israel, most of us are hesitant to try
and talk to you. I know that I am breaking my rule to stay out of
your way by posting this, but you deserve an explanation, at least
from me. I have found it far easier to try and skip your posts, or
at least, not reply to them because
I seem to make you so angry (and admit that I have wasted both our
times by challenging you in the past). But for every time that I
bite my tongue and don't say something back, there is probably another
time that I could say something friendlier, or ask a question, but
don't because I don't want to provoke another ng war. Sorry, but that's
the way it is.

That doesn't mean that I don't wish you well and also wish that no one
anywhere had to live with the threat of terrorism. I just can't
figure out how to do the newsgroup friendship thing with you. And by
the way, I really don't think that the killing of children makes terrorism
"worse," -- it's all awful, and everyone who dies in these senseless
acts had a life of value. If you had just posted that your heart
was broken at the latest killings, I think you might have gotten a
lot of different responses.

Lynne

I understand there are several agnostics and aetheists (sp) members of RCTN. For
my own edification I was wondering what "non-religious" folks do with/at Christmas
or Easter (I chose those two because they have become so secularized). I know that
the major religions of the world have their own high day observations.

I am not sure I am saying this very clearly. I am not meaning to offend anyone.
Most, if not all, of my friends are people I have met through the different
churches I have attended throughout my life so I don't really know anyone (up close
and personal) that doesn't share my general beliefs.

Anne (in Ellicott City, MD)

wrote:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:32:26 GMT, (Cindy
Clayton) wrote:

On 24 Aug 2003 02:46:15 GMT, ekoluvr (Tia
Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) wrote:

From: "Aynthem"

Perhaps the solution is to simply get rid of religions. ................

Sounds good but wouldn't work with humans! We need that "higher" entity --
who or what ever it may be -- to thank or blame as the case may be.


Just a reminder, Tia Mary, that not *all* humans feel this need.

Humankind taken as a whole, especially over the span of recorded
history, does display the tendency to put its hopes and fears into
godheads--but it isn't necessarily hard-coded into the human psyche! I
was raised without religious indoctrination, as were many people, and
I don't suffer from "deity envy," not even some of the time.

I agree that it's not feasible to get rid of all religions, but I
disagree that it's because of some inner need. Religions are a matter
of habit and tradition, and these are hard to budge.

Cheers,

Cindy Clayton
Houston, Texas, USA

You just made me feel better. I was raised in a religious type of way
and came to a decision to be agnostic with what I felt was knowledge.

I raised my kids in a non-religious manner. We did not attend
church, nor did they receive any religious instruction. Later I
wondered whether in trying to not influence them, I had in fact
influenced them in a negative manner.

Now I feel as I read that you received no religious influence in your
life and you do not miss it, that that applies to my kids too. So
perhaps that is as it should be, it just takes one generation of
consciously not promoting a god in the sky, to eliminate the feeling
that there is one and the consequent crutch it produces.

To my way of thinking, it is sheer vanity to think there is anything
more in store for humans. Little tiny blips in an infinitesimal
universe.

Sheena

"Anne Tuchscherer" wrote
I understand there are several agnostics and aetheists (sp) members of
RCTN. For my own edification I was wondering what "non-religious" folks
do with/at Christmas or Easter (I chose those two because they have
become so secularized).

My brother is a long time aetheist, and probably a fair example. He
celebrates Christmas, Easter and Thanksgiving as secular holidays. He has
the traditional dinners with the special holiday dishes. At Christmas, he
has a tree and presents, at Easter there is candy for the kids. I think
many people enjoy and celebrate the parts of the holidays that have to do
with hospitality, gift giving, and gathering with friends, even if the
religious basis for the holiday is not meaningful for them. Also many
people see the holidays as family times, and a chance to get together.
(One year I spent Christmas at his house, and spent Christmas eve watching
Monster Truck races on TV, quite a change from Midnight Mass!!.)
Dawne

Although I'm Jewish by birth I personally have always enjoyed celebrating
Christmas with my friends. I've even gone to Midnight Mass to accompany a
friend of mine who had no family or catholic friends to go with. I've
always gone for an Easter dinner with another friend. My being a secular
Jew and an agnostic doesn't (and shouldn't) have any bearing on what they
believe in. And my enjoyment of the holidays is partially because those
friends and/or relatives I've spent the day with are having a wonderful time
believing and worshiping as they please. I don't ask them to change their
minds or their convictions, and I expect them to do the same for me.
Lucille


"Anne Tuchscherer" wrote in message
s.com...
I understand there are several agnostics and aetheists (sp) members of
RCTN. For
my own edification I was wondering what "non-religious" folks do with/at
Christmas
or Easter (I chose those two because they have become so secularized). I
know that
the major religions of the world have their own high day observations.

I am not sure I am saying this very clearly. I am not meaning to offend
anyone.
Most, if not all, of my friends are people I have met through the
different
churches I have attended throughout my life so I don't really know anyone
(up close
and personal) that doesn't share my general beliefs.

Anne (in Ellicott City, MD)

wrote:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:32:26 GMT, (Cindy
Clayton) wrote:

On 24 Aug 2003 02:46:15 GMT, ekoluvr (Tia
Mary-remove nekoluvr to reply ) wrote:

From: "Aynthem"

Perhaps the solution is to simply get rid of religions.
.................

Sounds good but wouldn't work with humans! We need that "higher"
entity --
who or what ever it may be -- to thank or blame as the case may be.


Just a reminder, Tia Mary, that not *all* humans feel this need.

Humankind taken as a whole, especially over the span of recorded
history, does display the tendency to put its hopes and fears into
godheads--but it isn't necessarily hard-coded into the human psyche! I
was raised without religious indoctrination, as were many people, and
I don't suffer from "deity envy," not even some of the time.

I agree that it's not feasible to get rid of all religions, but I
disagree that it's because of some inner need. Religions are a matter
of habit and tradition, and these are hard to budge.

Cheers,

Cindy Clayton
Houston, Texas, USA

You just made me feel better. I was raised in a religious type of way
and came to a decision to be agnostic with what I felt was knowledge.

I raised my kids in a non-religious manner. We did not attend
church, nor did they receive any religious instruction. Later I
wondered whether in trying to not influence them, I had in fact
influenced them in a negative manner.

Now I feel as I read that you received no religious influence in your
life and you do not miss it, that that applies to my kids too. So
perhaps that is as it should be, it just takes one generation of
consciously not promoting a god in the sky, to eliminate the feeling
that there is one and the consequent crutch it produces.

To my way of thinking, it is sheer vanity to think there is anything
more in store for humans. Little tiny blips in an infinitesimal
universe.

Sheena

Yup, I saw a lot of his work when we spent the summer working in a VT
campground, near West Lebanon. We explored many of the local places, and
really enjoyed seeing his works in the old mill, IIRC.

Gillian
"Dr. Brat" wrote in message
...
Pat Porter wrote:
Na - don`t like Dali either! In fact I can`t think of a modern artist I
DO
like, offhand.

How about Maxfield Parrish?

Elizabeth
--
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~living well is the best revenge~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The most important thing one woman can do for another is to illuminate
and expand her sense of actual possibilities. --Adrienne Rich
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

With US assistance the Israelis have the fire
power to enforce their will.
And that's the truly ugly part. Kinda like the way Shrubya enforcing
his will on everyone. Vile. And Hitlerian.
Darla
Sacred cows make great hamburgers.

This was very well expressed Lucille ,
One can join friends or colleagues whenever one wants but the key to
good relations is in your Suffix
believing and worshiping as they please. I don't ask them to change their
minds or their convictions, and I expect them to do the same for me.
Lucille
You have said it wonderfully. thank you Lucille.
mirjam

No Lynne it is you yourself who proved your Hypocracy. ,
I really had no time, no will to go over your letter part by part and
show you where your Hypocracy just drips over , but if you go to
Lufcille`s lovely note you will see the answer, she writes that she
doesn`t expect others to change their minds or convictions, you on the
other hand Constantly and again in your last letter, do expect me to
cahnge my mind and my convictions,
Who are you to tell me how to mourn or how to express my mourning,
quote;" If you had just posted that ..." I mourn as i mourn , not as
you mourn. Quote " ..I could say something friendlier , or ask a
question but don`t , because i don`t want to provoke another ng war"
Now Lynne read this sentence aloud to yourself and tell yourself what
you said here ,,,, no to me. Yes you could be friendlier, and i think
that with this i am ending my answer to you, because if i will go into
your first part were you claim that All are sad but most don`t do it
because of my reactions ,,,,,, go enjoy your hypocracy, roll your eyes
where you feel `Oh so righteous..
May you never know any sorrow
mirjam
.... ,,,iciOn 27 Aug 2003 15:20:13 -0700, (Lynne M.)
wrote:

(Mirjam Bruck-Cohen) wrote in message ...
Thank you Lynne for a very well writen examplary Hypocritical letter.
mirjam

Hope you feel better for getting your dig in. Sadly, you have
proven my point yet again....

Lynne

(Mirjam Bruck-Cohen) wrote in message ...
No Lynne it is you yourself who proved your Hypocracy. ,
I really had no time, no will to go over your letter part by part and
show you where your Hypocracy just drips over , but if you go to
Lufcille`s lovely note you will see the answer, she writes that she
doesn`t expect others to change their minds or convictions, you on the
other hand Constantly and again in your last letter, do expect me to
cahnge my mind and my convictions,
Who are you to tell me how to mourn or how to express my mourning,
quote;" If you had just posted that ..." I mourn as i mourn , not as
you mourn. Quote " ..I could say something friendlier , or ask a
question but don`t , because i don`t want to provoke another ng war"

I'm sorry you were offended by my comments. I would never presume to
tell you to change your mind or your convictions, and that's not what
I meant at all. I'm afraid that once again we have failed to communicate,
but there is no point attempting to dissect it or go into it further.

Lynne