Dear Red States

On 11/22/08 7:56 PM, in article
,
" wrote:

On Nov 22, 8:07 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

But, I will freely admit that I cringe when I hear that schools, previously
good solid schools, aren't requiring math or writing or science.... And in
some cases don't even have a science or math department any longer, just a
lecturer or two. And some of the "make your own major" combinations sound to
me like - Yes, we'll take your money for 4 years and give you a piece of
paper.

And you should cringe, but you should not assume that it is true of
all schools.


Where did I say that - and I stick to my complaint. AND that I would not
send my daughter to where I went. Their standards have lowered to a
laughable point.

And yes, I have very firm beliefs about what a college education should
include. No matter what your major is, you should have a decent exposure to
literature, a foreign language, history, philosophy, "fine arts" (music, art
history), some of the "soft sciences" and hard science. Not the ability to
avoid the "hard stuff" (no matter what your hard stuff is) for 4 years.

I don't disagree.

I have trouble, though, with a complaint that sounds like it's about
"colleges these days" when it is really about a few institutions. The
things you are saying are not true of the college where I teach and
they are not true of the college from which my mother graduated in
1976 - I know, because I have relatives recently graduated from and
currently attending said institution and they've told me what their
programs are like.

Elizabeth

How about the continued presence of places that like the handful of places
I'm speaking is blight on all decent schools. Local "college lecturer" has a
grant to "allow for further integration of art into the science curriculum".
SAY WHAT\


C
http://www.chestercollege.edu/facult...ID=40&recID=31

On Nov 23, 3:04 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/22/08 7:56 PM, in article
,

" wrote:
On Nov 22, 8:07 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

But, I will freely admit that I cringe when I hear that schools, previously
good solid schools, aren't requiring math or writing or science.... And in
some cases don't even have a science or math department any longer, just a
lecturer or two. And some of the "make your own major" combinations sound to
me like - Yes, we'll take your money for 4 years and give you a piece of
paper.

And you should cringe, but you should not assume that it is true of
all schools.

Where did I say that - and I stick to my complaint. AND that I would not
send my daughter to where I went. Their standards have lowered to a
laughable point.

I think you implied that colleges in general are no longer doing a
good job when you said this in response to my comment about my
mother's degree:

I#'ll bet her degree was a lot more structured than what is being done
today.
#And had a few papers to write...
#C

I have several times prompted you to make a less general statement but
you haven't, so what else am I supposed to think but that you think
that all colleges are doing a bad job today? You also made a comment
about lowered standards which appeared to be a general appraisal.

It doesn't matter. I'm taking this whole discussion very personally,
so I'm done.

Elizabeth

On Nov 23, 3:04 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:


How about the continued presence of places that like the handful of places
I'm speaking is blight on all decent schools. Local "college lecturer" has a
grant to "allow for further integration of art into the science curriculum".
SAY WHAT\

Chttp://www.chestercollege.edu/faculty.php?pageID=40&recID=31

Actually, I'm not done. I don't see anything wrong with this grant.
I think you should read it again. I also need to tell you that the
Davis Foundation considers its grants very carefully and puts
applicants through a hellish process. If Davis is awarding a grant to
use more visual arts to teach the sciences, the applicant wrote a
damned fine proposal, no matter what you might think of it.

Now I'm done.

Elizabeth

On 11/23/08 5:44 PM, in article
,
" wrote:

On Nov 23, 3:04 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/22/08 7:56 PM, in article
,

" wrote:
On Nov 22, 8:07 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

But, I will freely admit that I cringe when I hear that schools, previously
good solid schools, aren't requiring math or writing or science.... And in
some cases don't even have a science or math department any longer, just a
lecturer or two. And some of the "make your own major" combinations sound
to
me like - Yes, we'll take your money for 4 years and give you a piece of
paper.

And you should cringe, but you should not assume that it is true of
all schools.

Where did I say that - and I stick to my complaint. AND that I would not
send my daughter to where I went. Their standards have lowered to a
laughable point.

I think you implied that colleges in general are no longer doing a
good job when you said this in response to my comment about my
mother's degree:

I#'ll bet her degree was a lot more structured than what is being done
today.
#And had a few papers to write...
#C

I have several times prompted you to make a less general statement but
you haven't, so what else am I supposed to think but that you think
that all colleges are doing a bad job today? You also made a comment
about lowered standards which appeared to be a general appraisal.

It doesn't matter. I'm taking this whole discussion very personally,
so I'm done.

Elizabeth
Please don't take it personally. If I had the time, I'd love to sit in and
listen to your courses. Don't think I could do the work anymore though....


But when it comes to "independent studies"....in my mind it comes down to
not only how much effort the student puts into it, but the quality of the
advisor. You, yourself have told me about fellow professors that put the
minimum of effort and expect the same level of recognition you get for your
huge effort.


Cheryl

On Nov 23, 6:19 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Please don't take it personally. If I had the time, I'd love to sit in and
listen to your courses. Don't think I could do the work anymore though....

Thank you.

But when it comes to "independent studies"....in my mind it comes down to
not only how much effort the student puts into it, but the quality of the
advisor. You, yourself have told me about fellow professors that put the
minimum of effort and expect the same level of recognition you get for your
huge effort.

Yeah, but I guess I see those people as the exception and it feels
like they're being held up as typical rather than exceptional.

Elizabeth

On 11/23/08 6:24 PM, in article
,
" wrote:

On Nov 23, 6:19 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Please don't take it personally. If I had the time, I'd love to sit in and
listen to your courses. Don't think I could do the work anymore though....

Thank you.

But when it comes to "independent studies"....in my mind it comes down to
not only how much effort the student puts into it, but the quality of the
advisor. You, yourself have told me about fellow professors that put the
minimum of effort and expect the same level of recognition you get for your
huge effort.

Yeah, but I guess I see those people as the exception and it feels
like they're being held up as typical rather than exceptional.

Elizabeth



I know my current experience is limited to New England College, SNHU and
Chester (local places where I know a fair number of both profs and current
students) and you are the exception and have attracted the regard of the
other exceptions. You really don't want to know the total lack of interest
these people have in their assigned students, because they get in the way of
research or "my art". And the lack of respect these kids have for most of
their "lecturers". BTW - the one UNH Manchester prof, we know is very
dedicated.

On Nov 24, 7:47 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/23/08 6:24 PM, in article
,



" wrote:
On Nov 23, 6:19 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Please don't take it personally. If I had the time, I'd love to sit in and
listen to your courses. Don't think I could do the work anymore though....

Thank you.

But when it comes to "independent studies"....in my mind it comes down to
not only how much effort the student puts into it, but the quality of the
advisor. You, yourself have told me about fellow professors that put the
minimum of effort and expect the same level of recognition you get for your
huge effort.

Yeah, but I guess I see those people as the exception and it feels
like they're being held up as typical rather than exceptional.

Elizabeth

I know my current experience is limited to New England College, SNHU and
Chester (local places where I know a fair number of both profs and current
students) and you are the exception and have attracted the regard of the
other exceptions. You really don't want to know the total lack of interest
these people have in their assigned students, because they get in the way of
research or "my art". And the lack of respect these kids have for most of
their "lecturers". BTW - the one UNH Manchester prof, we know is very
dedicated.


I do know one professor at SNHU who is very dedicated, but yes, a lot
of institutions reward their faculty for research or creative
endeavors rather than for teaching. Colleges that focus on teaching
tend to get trashed as "not real schools." It's unfortunate, but I
know that if I had a child of college age, I would be looking at the
Clarks, Marlboros, Springfield Colleges, and the Plymouth States and
the Fitchburg States rather than at the UMasses, the UNH's, the UVMs.
I went to Tufts because it was billed as a liberal arts college, but I
could name on less than one hand the faculty who knew me by name when
I graduated (magna cum laude), because it's actually a research
university. It all depends on what you're looking for. In my case, I
should have chosen more carefully, but I turned out ok.

Elizabeth

On 11/24/08 1:22 PM, in article
,
" wrote:

On Nov 24, 7:47 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/23/08 6:24 PM, in article
,



" wrote:
On Nov 23, 6:19 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Please don't take it personally. If I had the time, I'd love to sit in and
listen to your courses. Don't think I could do the work anymore though....

Thank you.

But when it comes to "independent studies"....in my mind it comes down to
not only how much effort the student puts into it, but the quality of the
advisor. You, yourself have told me about fellow professors that put the
minimum of effort and expect the same level of recognition you get for your
huge effort.

Yeah, but I guess I see those people as the exception and it feels
like they're being held up as typical rather than exceptional.

Elizabeth

I know my current experience is limited to New England College, SNHU and
Chester (local places where I know a fair number of both profs and current
students) and you are the exception and have attracted the regard of the
other exceptions. You really don't want to know the total lack of interest
these people have in their assigned students, because they get in the way of
research or "my art". And the lack of respect these kids have for most of
their "lecturers". BTW - the one UNH Manchester prof, we know is very
dedicated.


I do know one professor at SNHU who is very dedicated, but yes, a lot
of institutions reward their faculty for research or creative
endeavors rather than for teaching. Colleges that focus on teaching
tend to get trashed as "not real schools." It's unfortunate, but I
know that if I had a child of college age, I would be looking at the
Clarks, Marlboros, Springfield Colleges, and the Plymouth States and
the Fitchburg States rather than at the UMasses, the UNH's, the UVMs.
I went to Tufts because it was billed as a liberal arts college, but I
could name on less than one hand the faculty who knew me by name when
I graduated (magna cum laude), because it's actually a research
university. It all depends on what you're looking for. In my case, I
should have chosen more carefully, but I turned out ok.

Elizabeth


I think there can be a balance of teaching and research. Not entirely sure
how to do it though.

After DS narrows it down to about 20, I'll talk to you...

Cheryl

wrote:
I do know one professor at SNHU who is very dedicated, but yes, a lot
of institutions reward their faculty for research or creative
endeavors rather than for teaching. Colleges that focus on teaching
tend to get trashed as "not real schools." It's unfortunate, but I
know that if I had a child of college age, I would be looking at the
Clarks, Marlboros, Springfield Colleges, and the Plymouth States and
the Fitchburg States rather than at the UMasses, the UNH's, the UVMs.
I went to Tufts because it was billed as a liberal arts college, but I
could name on less than one hand the faculty who knew me by name when
I graduated (magna cum laude), because it's actually a research
university. It all depends on what you're looking for. In my case, I
should have chosen more carefully, but I turned out ok.

Elizabeth


There must be a happy medium somewhere. I also went to a
research-oriented university (Johns Hopkins), and teaching was not at
that time given much priority at all. I remember the students organizing
to try to save the job of one of the Poly Sci profs who was a terrific
and inspirational teacher; he didn't get tenure in spite of student
efforts. (He did publish, but apparently his national reputation based
on research didn't measure up.) I think it's changed somewhat now, but I
don't know for sure. I didn't encourage my children to go there.

I think we did find a happy medium for DD, who went to New College of
Florida. They had a great program that balanced research with real
quality teaching and mentoring relationships between faculty and
students. It's a gem of a school. Places like that do exist, but it
takes real searching.

Sue

--
Susan Hartman/Dirty Linen
The Magazine of Folk and World Music
www.dirtylinen.com

On Nov 24, 3:42 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/24/08 1:22 PM, in article
,



" wrote:
On Nov 24, 7:47 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/23/08 6:24 PM, in article
,

" wrote:
On Nov 23, 6:19 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

Please don't take it personally. If I had the time, I'd love to sit in and
listen to your courses. Don't think I could do the work anymore though....

Thank you.

But when it comes to "independent studies"....in my mind it comes down to
not only how much effort the student puts into it, but the quality of the
advisor. You, yourself have told me about fellow professors that put the
minimum of effort and expect the same level of recognition you get for your
huge effort.

Yeah, but I guess I see those people as the exception and it feels
like they're being held up as typical rather than exceptional.

Elizabeth

I know my current experience is limited to New England College, SNHU and
Chester (local places where I know a fair number of both profs and current
students) and you are the exception and have attracted the regard of the
other exceptions. You really don't want to know the total lack of interest
these people have in their assigned students, because they get in the way of
research or "my art". And the lack of respect these kids have for most of
their "lecturers". BTW - the one UNH Manchester prof, we know is very
dedicated.

I do know one professor at SNHU who is very dedicated, but yes, a lot
of institutions reward their faculty for research or creative
endeavors rather than for teaching. Colleges that focus on teaching
tend to get trashed as "not real schools." It's unfortunate, but I
know that if I had a child of college age, I would be looking at the
Clarks, Marlboros, Springfield Colleges, and the Plymouth States and
the Fitchburg States rather than at the UMasses, the UNH's, the UVMs.
I went to Tufts because it was billed as a liberal arts college, but I
could name on less than one hand the faculty who knew me by name when
I graduated (magna cum laude), because it's actually a research
university. It all depends on what you're looking for. In my case, I
should have chosen more carefully, but I turned out ok.

Elizabeth

I think there can be a balance of teaching and research. Not entirely sure
how to do it though.

I don't believe that anyone can truly teach well if they're not doing
research. But doing research doesn't mean "writes a top rated book
every year or so." It might not mean ever writing a book. It does
mean keeping up with ones field. All of my colleagues do research and
most of them make teaching a priority, but because our names aren't
constantly in the public eye, we don't get the prestige that a lot of
other colleges get.

Elizabeth