Dear Red States

On 11/19/08 3:45 PM, in article
,
" wrote:

On Nov 19, 2:57 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 11:32 AM, in article
,
" wrote:

Very few schools HAVEN'T caught on to that idea. My mother earned a
BA in Liberal Studies from the University of Delaware in 1976 (at the
age of 56).

I'll bet her degree was a lot more structured than what is being done today.
And had a few papers to write...

I think you'd lose that bet. Her degree was based on a program she
proposed herself that was approved by a committee, which is exactly
what happens at the institution at which I currently teach.

Elizabeth
I'll still bet she had more papers to write...

C

On Nov 19, 4:16 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 3:45 PM, in article
,



" wrote:
On Nov 19, 2:57 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 11:32 AM, in article
,
" wrote:

Very few schools HAVEN'T caught on to that idea. My mother earned a
BA in Liberal Studies from the University of Delaware in 1976 (at the
age of 56).

I'll bet her degree was a lot more structured than what is being done today.
And had a few papers to write...

I think you'd lose that bet. Her degree was based on a program she
proposed herself that was approved by a committee, which is exactly
what happens at the institution at which I currently teach.

Elizabeth

I'll still bet she had more papers to write...

I guess. I make my students write papers, as do my colleagues, but I
certainly can't speak for all colleges everywhere.

Elizabeth (first drafts for European arrive Tuesday and I'm not done
with the short ones from intro yet)

On 11/20/08 10:24 PM, in article
,
" wrote:

On Nov 19, 4:16 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 3:45 PM, in article
,



" wrote:
On Nov 19, 2:57 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 11:32 AM, in article
,
" wrote:

Very few schools HAVEN'T caught on to that idea. My mother earned a
BA in Liberal Studies from the University of Delaware in 1976 (at the
age of 56).

I'll bet her degree was a lot more structured than what is being done
today.
And had a few papers to write...

I think you'd lose that bet. Her degree was based on a program she
proposed herself that was approved by a committee, which is exactly
what happens at the institution at which I currently teach.

Elizabeth

I'll still bet she had more papers to write...

I guess. I make my students write papers, as do my colleagues, but I
certainly can't speak for all colleges everywhere.

Elizabeth (first drafts for European arrive Tuesday and I'm not done
with the short ones from intro yet)



I don't know if the complaint ( I have several friends with college
students, two doing liberal arts and/or interdisciplinary combinations that
just seem to have no connection other than "I like the subject) is "college
was a lot more rigorous when we went" or whether the standards of academic
discipline are truly lower.

I do know that a graduate from my alma mater, where you learned to present a
paper orally and do it well, presented a paper at an awards banquet (she
works with DH) liberally dosed with "like you know" and similar formal
speech no-no's. BTW, Air Force and Army big boys where there. And when this
young woman and I had conversations, she pretty much escaped college with
out the anywhere close to the level of study and core requirements that I
did. Heard more than a few things that made me cringe, no science or math
requirement while she was there, no requirement for a foreign language, no
requirement for credits outside your major after 3 "101" level courses. The
once required writing coursework is gone. GRRR


Cheryl

On Nov 21, 8:04 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/20/08 10:24 PM, in article
,



" wrote:
On Nov 19, 4:16 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 3:45 PM, in article
,

" wrote:
On Nov 19, 2:57 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 11:32 AM, in article
,
" wrote:

Very few schools HAVEN'T caught on to that idea. My mother earned a
BA in Liberal Studies from the University of Delaware in 1976 (at the
age of 56).

I'll bet her degree was a lot more structured than what is being done
today.
And had a few papers to write...

I think you'd lose that bet. Her degree was based on a program she
proposed herself that was approved by a committee, which is exactly
what happens at the institution at which I currently teach.

Elizabeth

I'll still bet she had more papers to write...

I guess. I make my students write papers, as do my colleagues, but I
certainly can't speak for all colleges everywhere.

Elizabeth (first drafts for European arrive Tuesday and I'm not done
with the short ones from intro yet)

I don't know if the complaint ( I have several friends with college
students, two doing liberal arts and/or interdisciplinary combinations that
just seem to have no connection other than "I like the subject) is "college
was a lot more rigorous when we went" or whether the standards of academic
discipline are truly lower.

I do know that a graduate from my alma mater, where you learned to present a
paper orally and do it well, presented a paper at an awards banquet (she
works with DH) liberally dosed with "like you know" and similar formal
speech no-no's. BTW, Air Force and Army big boys where there. And when this
young woman and I had conversations, she pretty much escaped college with
out the anywhere close to the level of study and core requirements that I
did. Heard more than a few things that made me cringe, no science or math
requirement while she was there, no requirement for a foreign language, no
requirement for credits outside your major after 3 "101" level courses. The
once required writing coursework is gone. GRRR

You wouldn't possibly be generalizing from one case at one institution
to colleges in general, would you? Because none of what you're saying
applies to the college at which I teach and I don't think it applies
to any of the ones with which I am familiar. We require a two course
lab science sequence and 3 credits in math or science beyond that. We
require 4 courses in English, one in Health, one in public speaking, a
two course sequence in World History, and distribution credits in the
social sciences and the humanities. We require that no more than 55
of 120 credits be taken in the major and we have writing, quantitative
and diversity requirements at the 300 level. I find these
requirements to be more typical than not when discussing programs with
my peers from other institutions.

Elizabeth

On 11/21/08 9:44 PM, in article
,
" wrote:

On Nov 21, 8:04 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/20/08 10:24 PM, in article
,



" wrote:
On Nov 19, 4:16 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 3:45 PM, in article
,

" wrote:
On Nov 19, 2:57 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote:
On 11/19/08 11:32 AM, in article
,
" wrote:

Very few schools HAVEN'T caught on to that idea. My mother earned a
BA in Liberal Studies from the University of Delaware in 1976 (at the
age of 56).

I'll bet her degree was a lot more structured than what is being done
today.
And had a few papers to write...

I think you'd lose that bet. Her degree was based on a program she
proposed herself that was approved by a committee, which is exactly
what happens at the institution at which I currently teach.

Elizabeth

I'll still bet she had more papers to write...

I guess. I make my students write papers, as do my colleagues, but I
certainly can't speak for all colleges everywhere.

Elizabeth (first drafts for European arrive Tuesday and I'm not done
with the short ones from intro yet)

I don't know if the complaint ( I have several friends with college
students, two doing liberal arts and/or interdisciplinary combinations that
just seem to have no connection other than "I like the subject) is "college
was a lot more rigorous when we went" or whether the standards of academic
discipline are truly lower.

I do know that a graduate from my alma mater, where you learned to present a
paper orally and do it well, presented a paper at an awards banquet (she
works with DH) liberally dosed with "like you know" and similar formal
speech no-no's. BTW, Air Force and Army big boys where there. And when this
young woman and I had conversations, she pretty much escaped college with
out the anywhere close to the level of study and core requirements that I
did. Heard more than a few things that made me cringe, no science or math
requirement while she was there, no requirement for a foreign language, no
requirement for credits outside your major after 3 "101" level courses. The
once required writing coursework is gone. GRRR

You wouldn't possibly be generalizing from one case at one institution
to colleges in general, would you? Because none of what you're saying
applies to the college at which I teach and I don't think it applies
to any of the ones with which I am familiar. We require a two course
lab science sequence and 3 credits in math or science beyond that. We
require 4 courses in English, one in Health, one in public speaking, a
two course sequence in World History, and distribution credits in the
social sciences and the humanities. We require that no more than 55
of 120 credits be taken in the major and we have writing, quantitative
and diversity requirements at the 300 level. I find these
requirements to be more typical than not when discussing programs with
my peers from other institutions.

Elizabeth
No, I'm not generalizing one student or school. And frankly, the public unis
seem to have more rigorous requirements than the private ones. That was
anything but true when I was looking for schools. (I had two MA state
schools encourage me to attend there because my course work would be
easier.)

But, I will freely admit that I cringe when I hear that schools, previously
good solid schools, aren't requiring math or writing or science.... And in
some cases don't even have a science or math department any longer, just a
lecturer or two. And some of the "make your own major" combinations sound to
me like - Yes, we'll take your money for 4 years and give you a piece of
paper.

And yes, I have very firm beliefs about what a college education should
include. No matter what your major is, you should have a decent exposure to
literature, a foreign language, history, philosophy, "fine arts" (music, art
history), some of the "soft sciences" and hard science. Not the ability to
avoid the "hard stuff" (no matter what your hard stuff is) for 4 years.

Cheryl

Pat P wrote:
"flitterbit" wrote in message
...
dark.angel wrote:
In article , Karen C in California
wrote:

Dear Red States:


snipped


Peace out,

The Blue States
If your discriminatory spews are any indicator (and I think they are),
you're about as "Blue" as Bush!!! Try walking the talk, not just
blabbering on about it.

I hope against all hope that your post was a failed attempt at humor.
If not, don't be surprised if our party disowns you. I think even Obama
would be horribly ashamed at your post. Horribly.


Karen didn't write the piece; it's been circulating the Web since the 2004
Presidential election.

And that`s a justification for putting it on here???

Pat


I was simply pointing out its provenance and expressed no opinion
whatsoever in terms of whether or not it was a justified or appropriate
posting.

Cheryl Isaak wrote:

And some of the "make your own major" combinations sound to
me like - Yes, we'll take your money for 4 years and give you a piece of
paper.




I agree. Back in my day, one of our vocal divas designed her own major
in Medieval/Renaissance Studies, which included history classes,
literature classes, Latin, music, art, drama/costume, etc.

Now I'm hearing about DIY majors that apparently don't include attending
class at all, "I can't find relevant classes" so it's all done by
independent study. Why bother going to college at all? You can read
books at home for free.

--
Karen C - California
Editor/Proofreader www.IntlProofingConsortium.com

"On his tombstone, Benjamin Franklin wanted it said not that he had been
rich
but rather that he had been useful."

Finished 10/7/08 - Sun Fun (Dimensions)

WIP: Nativity from "Countdown to Christmas" book, Oriental Kimono
(Janlynn),
MLI The Teacher (gift to the library), Bethany Angel (Marbek)
Retrieved from UFO pile: Marbek's Snow Angel, MLI Farmers Market

CFSfacts -- where we give you the facts and dispel the myths
Myths, with research cites: http://www.aacfs.org/images/pdfs/myths.pdf
Newest research blog: http://cfs-facts.blogspot.com/

On Nov 22, 8:07 am, Cheryl Isaak wrote:

But, I will freely admit that I cringe when I hear that schools, previously
good solid schools, aren't requiring math or writing or science.... And in
some cases don't even have a science or math department any longer, just a
lecturer or two. And some of the "make your own major" combinations sound to
me like - Yes, we'll take your money for 4 years and give you a piece of
paper.

And you should cringe, but you should not assume that it is true of
all schools.

And yes, I have very firm beliefs about what a college education should
include. No matter what your major is, you should have a decent exposure to
literature, a foreign language, history, philosophy, "fine arts" (music, art
history), some of the "soft sciences" and hard science. Not the ability to
avoid the "hard stuff" (no matter what your hard stuff is) for 4 years.

I don't disagree.

I have trouble, though, with a complaint that sounds like it's about
"colleges these days" when it is really about a few institutions. The
things you are saying are not true of the college where I teach and
they are not true of the college from which my mother graduated in
1976 - I know, because I have relatives recently graduated from and
currently attending said institution and they've told me what their
programs are like.

Elizabeth

On Nov 22, 6:16 pm, Karen C in California wrote:
Cheryl Isaak wrote:
And some of the "make your own major" combinations sound to
me like - Yes, we'll take your money for 4 years and give you a piece of
paper.

I agree. Back in my day, one of our vocal divas designed her own major
in Medieval/Renaissance Studies, which included history classes,
literature classes, Latin, music, art, drama/costume, etc.

Now I'm hearing about DIY majors that apparently don't include attending
class at all, "I can't find relevant classes" so it's all done by
independent study. Why bother going to college at all? You can read
books at home for free.
I
I think you have no idea at all what is involved in an independent
study which is a misnomer in that the student actually works closely
with a faculty member to identify the materials to be studied and the
means by which the student will be evaluated. But that's ok. I've
never known you to let ignorance stand in the way of your opinions.

Elizabeth

wrote in message
...
On Nov 22, 6:16 pm, Karen C in California wrote:
Cheryl Isaak wrote:
And some of the "make your own major" combinations sound to
me like - Yes, we'll take your money for 4 years and give you a piece
of
paper.

I agree. Back in my day, one of our vocal divas designed her own major
in Medieval/Renaissance Studies, which included history classes,
literature classes, Latin, music, art, drama/costume, etc.

Now I'm hearing about DIY majors that apparently don't include attending
class at all, "I can't find relevant classes" so it's all done by
independent study. Why bother going to college at all? You can read
books at home for free.
I
I think you have no idea at all what is involved in an independent
study which is a misnomer in that the student actually works closely
with a faculty member to identify the materials to be studied and the
means by which the student will be evaluated. But that's ok. I've
never known you to let ignorance stand in the way of your opinions.

Elizabeth

I love that thought " I've never known you to let ignorance stand in the way
of your opinions." I think it would be marvelous on a sampler.