Dear Red States

wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 2:01 am, Karen C in California wrote:
wrote:
I don't,
for example, think that people who choose to have children should
expect to be as advanced in their careers as people who don't have
children and therefore have more time to devote to career-building.
I'm not one who thinks that any of us can "have it all."

Elizabeth

Something we can agree on.
[snip]

Would I rather have spent Saturday home stitching? Yeah. But someone
had to do the work when she said she'd promised to do something with her
kid and couldn't work on the weekend. And as much as she whined about
the unfairness of me getting the extra money for working on her case,
the next time overtime came up, she didn't want to give up her Saturday,
so guess who got rich at her expense again?


Actually, we don't agree. I try really hard to be respectful of women
who make other choices than I do, but you seem to have nothing but
contempt for any of them. It's not a matter of "giving up her
Saturday." It's a matter of having put her children before her job,
for which she was to be commended, not condemned.

Elizabeth

I think you're wasting your breath. Something tells me that when one has no
respect for themselves, or maybe doesn't really think they are superior and
has to prove it to everyone and to themselves all the time, rational
thinking won't change a thing

Lucille

lzoltynospam@now says...
I think you're wasting your breath.

That's fer sure!

Something tells me that when one has no
respect for themselves, or maybe doesn't really think they are superior and
has to prove it to everyone and to themselves all the time, rational
thinking won't change a thing

She not only thinks she is, she knows she is better than everyone else and is
not hesitant to tell the world how right her obervations and opinions are. Said
observations and opinions are always based on vast samples of the population
and/or emperical (sp??) data. It must be very comforting to be so sure of
oneself 150% of the time.
--
another anne, add ingers to reply

Jangchub wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:26:41 -0600, Olwyn Mary
wrote:

Jangchub wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:17:22 GMT, lucretia borgia
wrote:



Undecided sounds good to me. I also suggested if he didn't know,
maybe he is a good case for doing one of those gap years, spending
that year travelling the world. We have relations on just about
every continent, so it would be more than possible for him.

Even if a student has something in mind when they get into University
they network with others and maybe change their ideal career, etc.
Going to Europe is a priceless thing to do during a gap year. I would
do everything anyway to encourage college to any kid. The best market
or industry to get into is the alternative energy R&D field. This is
going to be America's saving grace if we play our cards right. IMO
Victoria
I lived for twelve years in a college town. I couldn't count the number
of kids who had to do an extra year because they changed majors halfway
through. As a result, I ALWAYS tell entering freshers to "take the
smorgasbord" and not declare a major until junior year.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.

What's wrong with doing an extra year? The education will be more
rounded.

Academically, probably nothing, but not everyone can afford an extra
year of post-secondary education; tuition isn't cheap.

snipped

I think another reason kids are pressured to declare a major early is
so they can get the classes they need! For example (completely
fictional), if you want a degree in Zoology, you probably need to take
certain biology and chemistry classes, some of which build on one
another and others of which are only offered every other semester. At
some universities, you may not even be able to take Zoology 101 until
you've had those courses and since they are the basis for all science
majors, they fill up fast. If you wait, you may not be able to get
into them when you would have preferred to. Others, you can't take
until you declare your major. If you don't declare soon, you can't
graduate in four years.

Linda

On Nov 18, 2:37 pm, Jangchub wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:17:38 -0500, flitterbit
wrote:

Academically, probably nothing, but not everyone can afford an extra
year of post-secondary education; tuition isn't cheap.

snipped

That's not the point.

No, it is the point.

The point is so many kids enter school and find
it hard and drop out because they aren't focused. I say take whatever
you want. Chances are unless it's something the student adores, the
major will change. There are student loans, all kinds of grants if
elidgable, etc.

Student loans and grants are becoming harder to get. And many people
find their options extremely limited if they have a high debt burden
when they graduate.

I wouldn't say anything to discourage any part of
going to college. If someone says don't take a major, it's not, in my
opinion, good advice. It's knowledge from experience, yes, maybe.

No one's saying don't take a major. We're just suggesting that you
don't need to know your major right away. Now, in some cases you do,
because there's not a lot of flexibility in the program for electives,
but in Arts and Sciences, a student can usually explore a bit before
choosing. The problem isn't telling students not to pick a major,
it's that many schools are set up to funnel them into majors too soon.

It's discouraging to the student. From experience, I went to
University for horticulture. My mother being a graduate of social
sciences said to me, horticulture shmorticulture, you should think
about becoming a social worker.

Ok, but in that case, she was discouraging your choice, not
discouraging you from picking any major at all. That's different.

Elizabeth

On Nov 18, 1:56 pm, Jangchub wrote:


What's wrong with doing an extra year? The education will be more
rounded. I wouldn't tell any kid who has any idea of a major not to
take one. I encourage anyone to take anything they find interesting
and I never said to any of my friends grown children in college to do
anything as long as they just go to school. What's the difference?

It costs money to do an extra year, plus the opportunity costs of the
salary they could be making if they were done. For many students it
would be a real financial burden. AND there's no need to declare a
major right away. You can still take the courses you find interesting
without having to put yourself in a corner. Ideally, students in
their first two years should be taking whatever core or general
education courses they need while exploring their options. What I can
stand is when students take all the specialized courses first and then
have to do the intro courses as seniors when they're bored with them
(and yes, I understand prerequisites, but lots of places don't have
them for a variety of reasons).

Elizabeth

says...
I think another reason kids are pressured to declare a major early is
so they can get the classes they need!

Many colleges and universities are eliminating programs so ceclaring a major
early might help colleges/universities gage how much interest there is in a
field.

When my son went to Georgia Tech, he knew he wanted to be an engineer but
didn't have a clue what kind of an engineer so he was listed as undecided and
given 2 years to make a choice. When the grace period was up, students had to
have a certain GPA, which culled out some bright students who had had trouble
transitioning from high school to college.

--
another anne, add ingers to reply

Jangchub wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 10:26:41 -0600, Olwyn Mary
wrote:

I lived for twelve years in a college town. I couldn't count the number
of kids who had to do an extra year because they changed majors halfway
through. As a result, I ALWAYS tell entering freshers to "take the
smorgasbord" and not declare a major until junior year.

What's wrong with doing an extra year?

Nothing, if you can afford to do it! The cost
is staggering at many universities, however.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Jangchub wrote:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:17:38 -0500, flitterbit
wrote:

Academically, probably nothing, but not everyone can afford an extra
year of post-secondary education; tuition isn't cheap.
snipped

That's not the point. The point is so many kids enter school and find
it hard and drop out because they aren't focused. I say take whatever
you want. Chances are unless it's something the student adores, the
major will change. There are student loans, all kinds of grants if
elidgable, etc.

Grants are few and far between. You still have to
pay back the student loans, and it can be very, very difficult
to pay back the loans unless you graduate with a lucrative
degree. Even the loans are harder to get these days.
The *average* graduating senior in college leaves with
nearly $20,000 in student loan debt, with a quarter of
students having more than $25,000 and a tenth more than
$35,000.

I think college is a wonderful thing, and I
think that it is wonderful for people to study all
sorts of fields regardless of whether they result in
lucrative degrees, but it's not cheap and heavy student
loan debt is a terrible burden, especially if you end up
not graduating with a degree, or have a hard time finding
a job that pays enough to live on *and* meet your student
loan payments. I wouldn't want to discourage kids from
going to college, but I also don't think it's helpful to
be unrealistic about the costs. I don't think you have
to have every detail of your life planned before your
first day of college, but I think it's a terrific waste
of time and money unless you're really ready to go and
make good use of the experience. If you're not, there
are plenty of other enriching experiences you can take
part in until the day comes when you are ready to tackle
college for what it's worth.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Jangchub wrote:

True, all of what you say is true. My expression is coming from a
different place than yours. You are an educator. You and I are also
grown adults and have been for a long time. When a kid comes out of
high school a complete turd brain (said lovingly) who knows everything
(of course) who wants to take doogleology as a major will or could be
discouraged enough if forced NOT to decide a major. I don't know, am
I articulating this well?

I don't think the concept of being forced not to
take a major makes any sense. Declaring a major is a
formality, and the procedure for doing so varies from
school to school. Often you're not allowed to formally
declare a major until you have proven yourself by
meeting certain requirements first. Nevertheless,
if I'm hell bent on studying a particular subject
from the day I set foot on campus, it's really irrelevant
whether I can declare my major that day or not. I'm
still going to be taking whatever classes I need to
take in order to ultimately fulfill the requirements
to graduate with a degree in that field. I don't really
see how anyone would be discouraged by the technicality
of when and how they were to declare a major. I suspect
if anything, the frustration would be among those who
needed to declare a major before they could settle
on one.
I have two undergraduate degrees, which I
did at the same time in two different colleges at the
same university. For one major, my major was essentially
declared from day one. For the other, I had two years
of pre-reqs to fulfill before I could formally declare.
It didn't make a hill of beans of difference to me,
as I would have been taking the same classes either way.
The only difference is that if I hadn't started out
knowing what I wanted to do, it would have taken a
lot longer to get those two majors because it was a
very tight squeeze to fit all the courses in. There
wasn't any wiggle room in the schedule. Had I been
rolling in cash, it would have been no problem to take
several more years to finish. Seeing as I wasn't, I
had to be more practical and plan carefully starting
from year one. Most likely, had I entered college
without knowing what I wanted to do, I ultimately
would have had to choose one major and drop
the other aside from a few electives. That wouldn't
have been the end of the earth, but it was certainly
more efficient to go in knowing what I wanted. None
of it had anything to do with precisely when or how
I declared my majors, though.

If you mean to suggest that it's discouraging
if parents or advisors or whoever force a student
not to study what the student wants to study, of
course I would agree that's discouraging. On the
other hand, as with everything else, there are
consequences to all actions. You can spend a decade
in college and study all sorts of fascinating things
and graduate with a mess of degrees, huge debt, and
few job prospects. It's wise to understand the
potential ramifications of one's choices before making
them. One might still choose to end up with huge
debt and few job prospects, but at least one goes in
with eyes open.

Best wishes,
Ericka