help please.

Good idea.

Maybe it would help me to look at hte "best days" list on a "worst day" too...
just to remind myself how far I've come, since not having come far enough is
actually one of the things that tears me (further) down when things seem bad,
until I get to an "all black" place, or whatever...

marisa2

"Deirdre S." wrote:

And another form of self-regulation has the potential to preserve a
lot of your energy, instead of using it up on this emotional
'roller-coastering'.

Make a study of what kinds of things surround your best times and your
worst times, and see if you can't actively *build* the former, and
-avoid- the latter, bit by bit, based on your observations about what
goes with each kind of experience.

Deirdre

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 21:15:50 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
wrote:

And it won't produce the destructive behavior patterns.

Christina Peterson wrote:

There were some
things about that conversation I didn't like, but ultiatemly I think she
is
right. I feel too out of control about too many things right now, and
frankly, wiping up stuff off the counter or picking up my own pile of junk
are activities well within my capabilities.

I wasn't thinking of moving your dishes from the table to the sink, that's
just normal courtesy. But what's this control thing? Do you have OCD? You
mention compulsion in another part of your post too. That is also a
chemical imbalance that is comparitively easy to correct medically.


I don't think I have OCD.

One of the spiralling-thought patterns I get though is when I convince myself
that NOTHING is in my control (job, school, health of my grandparents, my
husband's school and job (or lack thereof), my mental/emotional state, my
husband's mental/emotional state, my weight, my sleep patterns (or lack
thereof), my migranes, the state of our appartment, the way my dad thinks of me,
what people at work think of me, what random people on the street think of me,
what my brother is doing in his life, what my cousin is doing in her life, what
my aunt and grandparents think of what my cousin is doing even though they
really don't understand the system of higher education, etc etc etc.) Of course
what I need to do is realize that I DO have control over some of these, partial
control over others, don't need control of many of the rest. But that is easier
to tell someone else to do, then to do myself.

It was amazing in the group therapy to note how each person felt they had an
insurmountable group of delmas and problems, while everyone else had a really
easy time telling eachother "just don't DO that if you don't want to", "take
care of YOURSELF first or you won't be ABLE to help them with that", or "break
things up into pieces, do this and this and this and then it will be easy.".

It took a long time to dawn on me that when other people said these thigns to
me, it wasn't because they just didn't know ALL the facts pertaining to my
delemas... it was because many of mine really ARE as simple as that, I just
can't see it, just as they can't see it when I tell them the same thing.


I think they would've identified it [low to normal BP] at the program
(for the first few weeks I was there, there were a bunch of people who
were
bi-polar, at least a couple of whom were on the low end. ....... I
am convinced that people who are bi-polar really need their lithium (or
similar medicine) and it does definately dampen their creativitiy from
what
I can tell.)

Personally, I think group therapy is a very bad place for diagnoses. They
recognize the obvious and easy, but they miss the more complex and unusual
stuff, while leaving the impression that they've covered it.


I totally agree about that.

It also wasn't a good place to learn about specific techniques for dealing with
your specific neurological/psychaitric problem. It was a decent place to get
support and advice on "every-day" problems (how to deal with a specific family
situation, how to deal with a stressful event coming up, etc).

Your fear of taking medicine is like fear of surgery. No one likes it. But
if it can save your life or your quality of life, you've got to go for it.

I addressed this in a sepearte posting.

In this particular case I don't think I explained the situation with my medicine
enough.
Lots of people's reactions are that I should be on the medicine, but my
psychaitrist and I did a lot of thinking about this and overall I still feel it
is definately the right choice for me at this particular time.

Many people think the manic phase of Bi-Polar is productive, but those manic
highs can be as destructive as the Depressive lows. And those feelings of
being able to do anything in the world don't necessarily relate to actually
being able to be.

I certainly learned this at the program.
Some of hte people had done unbelievable things while on a manic high, and
several had ended up really ruining their lives.
There were also a LOT of people who were "dual-diagnosed" with manic-depression
and substance abuse.

(Read the story by Cathy Crosby in On The Edge of
Darkness, by Kathy Cronkite; or read Children of the Queen of Sheba, by one
of the PBS correspondants). Taking drugs for what ails you is not a sign of
weakness, but a sign of being sensible and desirous of living the best life
you can.


I understand that. I certainly saw a lot of examples of people being on WRONG
medications, and people getting onto RIGHT medications while I was there.

Medicine is not an exact science and the administration of psychaitric medicine
is very far from any kind of science IMO after all of these obseverations of a
largish, changing group of people over a 2 month period. There is a huge
ammount of trial and error involved, and very few people even when on the
"right" combination are completely side-effect free. There are pros and cons to
all of it.



Depression can also be described as "overstimulation"

Wow. I never heard of it referred to as "overstimulation" before. That
is
how I view the anxiety for sure...........................

That is what I (was supposed to have) learned at hte program... replacing
unhealthy thinking habits, getting rid of co-dependance. (:Like I said, I
think I did good about removing my co-dependant tendencies on a lot of
other
people, but not on DH)


People who have a problem with Co-dependence don't have the problem with
other people. It's not a reactive disorder, it's a primary disorder. It
starts with your own thinking. You don't "fix" a relationship, you have to
deal with your own input FIRST.

I understand (well, intellectually I sort of understand. Emotionally is a
different thing).

It was easier to try to deal with my own thinking in some instances then others.


It has been the cleaning out of unhealthy thinking that has given me
enough
improvement in my mental health, to come to accept the
limitations of Depression.

How do you know what the limits are?


The limitations are pretty evident. I don't have enough mental energy to
put in a full work day (I can't hold a job) without getting forgetful or
glazing over, getting into car accidents, too. Thus I'm never going to be
successful in a profession. Even artistic endeavor is limited because I'm
not capable of a normally prolific output. I don't have the capacity for
organization to pursue all the things I'm interested. My Depression is
obviously severe, and most likely your limitations would not be so severe.
But they are of the same sort.


They are definately of the same sort.

I have done all of the above mentioned things in the past, although some of the
mental devices I used to get through them may not've been the best and may've
helped lead me down to the crash. But the fact that I did them before is
somethng I am holding on to; I am 26 so I can't be getting senile...which means
that if I did these things before, I should be able to again.

One thing that came out early in my therapy and that I can see really
clearly in myself (and my Dad) now: I used the symptoms of anxiety to get
me
through life, and really to fight against the depression, all of my life.
For instance, I have a poor memory, but I can count on my constant
obsessive
worrying to "ping" me to do the things I need to do. I have a tendency to
procrastinate, but a good panic attack always drove me to complete all my
school assignments on time no matter what it took.

You know, what you are describing here, is self medication. The same
drugging that medicines do, but without the control.

I realize that now. That is what I meant by "One thing that came out early in
my therapy and that I can see really clearly in myself now: I used ...."

The same intentional
changing of brain chemistry. It's much safer to do this through medicine.
And it won't produce the destructive behavior patterns.

I am hoping to find a third option.
I think I partially have, but I am impatient with it....
Medication can't be a 100% fix either.


But at some point about 2 1/2 years ago that system completely fell apart;
the obsessive thoughts took over entirely, and I was feeling too down to
even move sometimes much less accomplish waht I needed to.
I started taking medications. The ones with really bad physical
side-effects that wouldn't go away after a few weeks they took me off of.
The ones that had emotional and mental side-effects were harder to figure
out, because those could be attributed to the depression and anxiety.
Cloudiness of thought, loss of short-term memory, inability to remember
words, dizziness, and intense fear of DH were some of them.
It isn';t that I am sure that no medicine can help me, but I would REALLY
like to see if I can go it without medicine using other kinds of
techniques
(like the ones you are talking about) so that I don't have to keep going
thorugh these cycles of trying medicines which completely ruin my life,
especially since, all in all, I feel much better off of them then I have
on
any of them and the stuff I did at hte program DID seem to help me,
although
sometimes I regress and am really disappointed in myself. Especially
right
now, I do NOT need to be on a medicine which messes with my head to the
extent that I sit htere at work all day breaking things and can't talk
straight enough to get any thoughts across (not to mention, not having
thoughts worth getting across).


One thing to think about too, is that sometimes meds will clear up some of
the cloudiness, and you will experience your illness more clearly.


The problem was that the medications were causing the cloudiness, much worse
then anything I had ever had without medications. For a long time I didn't
realize it was the medications and just thought I was going completely insane.
It was extreemly frightening for me.

Prioritize. Give yourself some sort of structure (a hard thing for me).

Yeah, that is really hard for me.

I am not extroverted.............people keep telling me that I need
friends who are not my family. How does one do this?

I found that AA was a group activity I could participate in, without having
to make myself vulnerable. Some churches can be like that. Some classes
are that way too.


One thing I was jealous of (if that is the right word) was that people with
substance abuse ahd the 12 steps. I read some of the "blue book" and other
literature when I was there. The basic concept as I see it were a bunch of
stories of people who HAD succeeded: existance proofs that if you follow a
specific structure, you could get better. And it was amazing to me, an outsider
for that particular problem, to watch the people with substance abuse going
through the program follow the same patterns as they worked through the first
few steps (usually they left the partial-hospital program after some weeks so
they didn't get that far, but the patterns were very similar). It didn't seem
to matter how smart they were, what walk of life they were in... there were
differences in how their feelings came out, or what problems they had with the
steps, but they all seemed to really be going through the same phases. I really
saw what denial looked like, and disbelief in a power higher then one's self,
etc.

One of the counsellors who worked there felt htat the 12 steps were applicable
to all problems. I'm not sure.


I am a strict vegetarian.

My daughter had some very bad anemia from not enough protein in her
vegitarian diet. This can make you susceptible to very unclear thinking,
memory loss, etc, too.

I've been trying to raise my protein intake. Supposedly it will give me more
energy and help me lower my intake of cabohydrates and therefore help me loose
weight too.


I keep thinking I might have a thyroid problem (they are on both sides of
my
family) but the blood tests never show this.

Did you take all 4 tests? The tests show my call for thyroid is normal when
it's used up, my hormones to start production is normal, and my presence of
Free T3 is normal. It's the fourth and most expensive test, which they
usually don't give (one doctor even refused to give) that showed that I
don't convert the Free T3 to Free T4, which is the form in which it is
actually utilized.


I'm not sure. The doctor told me he ordered "all the tests, not just that one
test that doesn't show everything".

What do you mean about "toss out what you can of physical stuff"?
I don't do much physical stuff... I thought I should do more?

No, I mean toss out those Geographics that you've been saving. The books
you plan to read that look accusingly at you. The belt you plan to fix.
The nuts and bolts you might use. The articles you ought to re-read. The
dishes you hate that your grandmother gave you. The letters from people you
might want to answer. Records from the past 3 years of you electric bill.
The dress you hate that fits well and the one you love that doesn't fit.
Don't take on the responsibility of more pets. Don't keep the box you might
want to send something back in. The supplies from a craft you no longer do.
Toss out physical things. Clear your house of things to use up brain power
just by having them in your line of sight.

Ah.

Good idea.

Hard to implement.

lots of comments by the group so far that I can empathise with!


it's really helpful for me to know that people who seem to be doing so
well
have gone through this stuff too...

Often, it's because of their difficulties that people come to do well, so
take heart!



That would be nice.

When does that happen?



marisa2

I also have been giving photos and mementos to younger family members. Eg,
if I have several baby picturess of one of my sisters or brothers I'll give
them to their children. Those are much more valuable to them than to me.

Tina


"Deirdre S." wrote in message
...
Yeah, I saw that :-).

I've just had to pare down drastically recently myself, so I had to
find things that worked to make me feel like I still had the
'important stuff', but was able to afford to ship it and fit it into
one modest size room instead of six (all filled with shelves).

I kept some family photos, but scanned a lot, too, and offered the
originals to my sister, who is better equipped to keep them at this
point in time.

Deirdre

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:29:15 GMT, "Jalynne"
wrote:

GMTA, Deirdre!

"Marisa E Exter" wrote in message


One of the spiralling-thought patterns I get though is when I convince
myself
that NOTHING is in my control (job, school, health of my grandparents, my
husband's school and job (or lack thereof), my mental/emotional state, my
husband's mental/emotional state, my weight, my sleep patterns (or lack
thereof), my migranes, the state of our appartment, the way my dad thinks
of me,
what people at work think of me, what random people on the street think of
me,
what my brother is doing in his life, what my cousin is doing in her life,
what
my aunt and grandparents think of what my cousin is doing even though they
really don't understand the system of higher education, etc etc etc.) Of
course
what I need to do is realize that I DO have control over some of these,
partial
control over others, don't need control of many of the rest. But that is
easier
to tell someone else to do, then to do myself.

You know, most of the things you mention are not the business of someone who
isn't co-dependent. Many of the things you mention are about how you are
reflected in someone else's picture of you, not about who and how you are to
yourself.

This also reminds me of how much I used to be jealous of my "perfect"
sister. The really rich one. It never occurred to me that she admired me
and had some jealousy of her own toward me. We're close friends now.

It was amazing in the group therapy to note how each person felt they had
an
insurmountable group of delmas and problems, while everyone else had a
really
easy time telling eachother "just don't DO that if you don't want to",
"take
care of YOURSELF first or you won't be ABLE to help them with that", or
"break
things up into pieces, do this and this and this and then it will be
easy.".

....................
Medicine is not an exact science and the administration of psychaitric
medicine
is very far from any kind of science IMO after all of these obseverations
of a
largish, changing group of people over a 2 month period. There is a huge
ammount of trial and error involved, and very few people even when on the
"right" combination are completely side-effect free.
......................

This is why I too opt for using "less than theraputic doses". I understand
about and share your reluctance about meds.


People who have a problem with Co-dependence don't have the problem with
other people. It's not a reactive disorder, it's a primary disorder.
It
starts with your own thinking. You don't "fix" a relationship, you have
to
deal with your own input FIRST.

I understand (well, intellectually I sort of understand. Emotionally is a
different thing).....................

Learning that is a long hard road. Identifying it is a huge start!

The limitations [from Depression}are pretty evident. I don't have
enough mental energy ......

They are definately of the same sort................
I have done all of the above mentioned things in the past, although some
of the
mental devices I used to get through them may not've been the best and
may've
helped lead me down to the crash. But the fact that I did them before is
somethng I am holding on to; I am 26 so I can't be getting senile...which
means
that if I did these things before, I should be able to
again................

Mental habits have an element of trial and error too, after all.

I am hoping to find a third option.
I think I partially have, but I am impatient with it....
Medication can't be a 100% fix either.

HELL NO it's not!

............... the medications were causing the cloudiness, much worse
then anything I had ever had without medications. For a long time I
didn't
realize it was the medications and just thought I was going completely
insane.
It was extreemly frightening for me.

Prozac did that to me. Horrifying!

One thing I was jealous of (if that is the right word) was that people
with
substance abuse ahd the 12 steps. I read some of the "blue book" and
other
literature when I was there. The basic concept as I see it were a bunch
of
stories of people who HAD succeeded: existance proofs that if you follow a
specific structure, you could get better. And it was amazing to me, an
outsider
for that particular problem, to watch the people with substance abuse
going
through the program follow the same patterns as they worked through the
first
few steps (usually they left the partial-hospital program after some weeks
so
they didn't get that far, but the patterns were very similar). It didn't
seem
to matter how smart they were, what walk of life they were in... there
were
differences in how their feelings came out, or what problems they had with
the
steps, but they all seemed to really be going through the same phases. I
really
saw what denial looked like, and disbelief in a power higher then one's
self,
etc.

Yeah, I thought alcoholism was bad. Then I had the Co-dependence to deal
with. A similarity is that like alcoholism, Co-dependence is addiction to a
set of behaviours. (Ask the friends of any "dry drunk".)



it's really helpful for me to know that people who seem to be doing so
well have gone through this stuff too...

Often, it's because of their difficulties that people come to do well,
so
take heart!

That would be nice.
When does that happen?

Had to think for a while about this answer. All I can come up with a
"When you least expect it", and "when you're not looking". But you are in
the process now!

Tina

This is true of so many illnesses. The people who agonize over a condition,
let's say psoriasis, or the few for whom standard solutions do not work.

Tina


"Kathy N-V" wrote in message
.......... The group
with which you were working was not a representative sample of all the
people
taking psychotropic medications. Since the vast majority of
anti-depressants
and anti-anxiety medications are prescribed by primary care physicians, it
can be deduced that most people get the results they need without
additional
treatment.

It would only be people who need additional treatment, have side effects
or
have more than run-of-the-mill situational depression who would require
further attention. If you are basing your opinion on the experiences of
people you met in group therapy, naturally you would see people with more
than the usual need for treatment...........................

.......................Many, many people take such
medicines, with no undesirable side effects. They are treated through
their
primary care network, and no one ever knows they have ever suffered from
depression, anxiety or other medical condition. ...............

Christina Peterson wrote:

snip


But most of all simplify. Physical clutter contributes to mental
exhaustion. Toss out whatever you can both physical stuff, and intentions,
plans, etc (did I mention prioritize?). Even hiding clutter can help some,
temporarily).


snip



Tina

For the longest time, I have lived with clutter. Not the kind that you
hear of when someone is found dead in the home, surrounded by years'
worth of stacked newspapers, magazines, etc. Something less severe ;^).

I'm wondering if there is a certain personality-type or if it's
emotional turmoil that causes people to "gather" things and have them
about in such a way that they panic when visitors come a'calling. I
can't figure out why "I am the way I am," although I suspect ADD (I *do*
get distracted easily). I know it's possible to "gather" things and
keep them stored out-of-sight...so why do some of us keep them within
viewing range? Is it a reassurance factor? (I *know* I have it because
I can see it.)

At the other end of the spectrum, how about the "neatniks"/minimalists?
When I hear of someone who likes things "just so," a term that never
ceases to amuse me, I wonder if they had a childhood where they were
admonished for every "infraction" of not having all of their toys neatly
put away immediately after use. (Perhaps they're hoping to be featured
on the cover of "House Beautiful?")

What makes us behave either way? Is there a happy medium?

OK, how many of you collect things that you might "need" someday, or
know without a doubt that you'll "need" the item as soon as you get rid
of it? ::Turtlelover waves her hand high in the air!::

How many of you appreciate the echoes in a room with as little in it as
possible -- and cringe when the sofa pillows are not straight?

CONFESS!


Best,
Turtlelover

OK, how many of you collect things that you might "need" someday, or
know without a doubt that you'll "need" the item as soon as you get rid
of it? ::Turtlelover waves her hand high in the air!::

Me -- but I'm a collage artist, and that goes with the territory. (But I'm
that way naturally, too.)

I think a lot of the neat freaks are control freaks, if you scratch the
surface. At least my ex-husband was......
~~
Sooz
-------
Let the beauty we love be what we do. --Rumi
I'm not a hamster, and life's not a wheel. --Sooz
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html