Old style knitting

As I look at the knitting sticks, It looks to me like some of them are
commercially made and have turned, interchangeable needle holders. Thus,
there would be a small needle holder for each size needle which would fit
securely into the larger knitting stick which was tucked into the knitter's
apron strings.

I am experimenting with several different shaped knitting sticks. Shapes
such as ones pictured on the Yorkshire site are more suitable for inserting
into apron strings, while others work best attached to a firm leather belt.
Unfortuantly, I gave my wood lathe away a few years ago, so not all styles
will be tried.

My approach to holding needles firmly is to either drill a tapered holes and
then push the needle in until it fits firmly or to drill holes the exact
sixe of the needle that I intend to use with that knitting stick. It is
pruning season, and I can cut apiece of green wood and whittle a prototype
in a matter of minutes, let it dry a few days, and try it out. There are
several drying under my workbench right now and I will let you know which
one work.

Aaron


"Richard Eney" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
The project is to learn to knit on too long, too thin DPN - with the
lower
point of the right kneedle secured in a "knitting stick" which holds the
right needle stable, and most of the stitch formation performed with the
left needle. The yarn is controlled with the right hand.

Why ? Becaue they claim that this was the technique used in the "old
days"
to knit ganzeys.

Last night, I carved a knitting stick to control the lower end of the
right
needle, and sat down knit a fine yarn on US#1 needles.

What shape is your knitting stick? I tried one with a fairly loose hold
(it's really an old bobbin from a commercial knitting factory) and I can't
make the needle stay in. I admit I didn't try very long.

One real downside to this method of knitting is that the outer end of the
left needle does flail, and with a long metal needle, it does damage. I
am
sure the saving furniture is one reason that this method of knitting was
abandoned, and even worse, as I look at the damage to my knitting chair,
I
realize that flailing needle tip is right at eye level for a small child.

This is something I hadn't seen mentioned elsewhere. Clara Sedgwick was
observed to knit with the working end downward; maybe that was to keep the
other ends aimed upward for safety. Also, many people knitted standing
up, walking around, sitting on stools, etc. The descriptions I've read
mention tiny movements. Maybe if you move your left forearm as a whole
with the needle, instead of moving the needle with your fingers, that
might
make it flail less.

=Tamar

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:35:47 GMT, wrote:

Another good reference on other knitting methods is Mary Thomas's Knitting
Book, which is back in print as a paperback and full of fun facts.
However, I understand that not all the fun facts in MTKB are historically
accurate.

In the Yorkshire method, it was the lower end of the right needle that was
secured in the knitting stick. I expect that other areas had other methods.
For example, I understand that farther north, it was more common to knit on
8 or 10 shorter needles, while farther south only 5 longer needles were
used. I am not sure which system was used in Yorkshire -- perhaps both? I
suspect that it had to do with the weight of the yarn being used. Heavier
garments were likely knit on more needles, lighter yarns could be managed on
fewer needles.

Then there are the knitting sticks from the continent. They are longer -
was that to allow for different lengths of needles? Or, for some other
reason? For example securing the left needle? (so that the left hand could
control the yarn in the continental style.)

I have seen people knitting with the right needle clamped firmly under
their arm: no knitting stick. I'm pretty sure that's the way the older
women knit here in Italy, but I'm not 100% sure that it's here I saw
it.

--
Barbara Vaughan

My email address is my first initial followed by my last name at libero dot it.

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:41:42 -0000, (Richard Eney)
wrote:

This is something I hadn't seen mentioned elsewhere. Clara Sedgwick was
observed to knit with the working end downward; maybe that was to keep the
other ends aimed upward for safety. Also, many people knitted standing
up, walking around, sitting on stools, etc. The descriptions I've read
mention tiny movements. Maybe if you move your left forearm as a whole
with the needle, instead of moving the needle with your fingers, that might
make it flail less.

When we were in Zambia, visiting my daugher who was working for CARE
International, it was very common to see people, even very young
girls, walking along the highway knitting. People walked very long
distances there, and the edges of the highways were as crowded with
pedestrians as the sidewalks of New York.
--
Barbara Vaughan

My email address is my first initial followed by my last name at libero dot it.

B Vaughan wrote:

I have seen people knitting with the right needle clamped firmly under
their arm: no knitting stick. I'm pretty sure that's the way the older
women knit here in Italy, but I'm not 100% sure that it's here I saw
it.

That's the way I was taught to do it, growing up in the north of
England. In fact, I still use that method with straight needles. With
circs I find the Continental method easiest.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.

"B Vaughan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:35:47 GMT, wrote:


I have seen people knitting with the right needle clamped firmly under
their arm: no knitting stick. I'm pretty sure that's the way the older
women knit here in Italy, but I'm not 100% sure that it's here I saw
it.

--
Barbara Vaughan


It's interesting that you should mention this, Barbara. While I was looking
at yarns at the shop in Siena (which I wrote about in a previous post), the
shopkeeper was helping 2 other woman. While talking with them, she knitted
a swatch from a yarn they seemed to be considering. It appeared to me that
she was holding the right needle exactly as you described. I wish now I had
watched her more closely but I didn't want to stare. Also, I noticed that
she "threw" the yarn with her right hand by holding it between her thumb and
index finger. It seemed much slower than the way I do it which is to carry
the yarn over the end of my index finger.

--
Jan in MN
..

"Olwyn Mary" wrote in message
. ..
B Vaughan wrote:

I have seen people knitting with the right needle clamped firmly
under
their arm: no knitting stick. I'm pretty sure that's the way the
older
women knit here in Italy, but I'm not 100% sure that it's here I saw
it.
That's the way I was taught to do it, growing up in the north of
England. In fact, I still use that method with straight needles.
With circs I find the Continental method easiest.

I knit with my right needle tight under my arm. I didn't know it was
some 'old' way

O a Yorkshire woman living in Scotland

OK! So why are all of these older methods of knittng falling by the wayside?

Sure technology advanced allowing high quality circular needles, and long
DPN are a safety hazard, but are there issues related to knitting quality or
kitting speed? Is it a matter that we have gotten lazy and just buy the
needles offered by the big needle companies, or are these the best knitting
tools that history has to offer?

I think that today we have fewer "Knitting Guild" quality knitters, so there
is less demand for the high-end tools used to produce guild quality
knitting. Most of the knitting tools that I see on the market are
inexpensive tools for hobbists. Well, some of them are not so inexpensive,
but are they really the best tools for really high quality knitting?

Do we knit the way we knit because it is easy to teach and learn, or because
it produces the best results? Moreover, high technical skills requires
constant practice. Someone that knits only a few hours a month can not be as
profienct as someone who knits a few hours a day. If I do not knit for a
while, then I have to do some easy socks and hats to regain the muscles and
skills. Thus, I will never be as good as you guys that practice and train
on a regular schedule

Aaron

"B Vaughan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:35:47 GMT, wrote:

Another good reference on other knitting methods is Mary Thomas's
Knitting
Book, which is back in print as a paperback and full of fun facts.
However, I understand that not all the fun facts in MTKB are historically
accurate.

In the Yorkshire method, it was the lower end of the right needle that
was
secured in the knitting stick. I expect that other areas had other
methods.
For example, I understand that farther north, it was more common to knit
on
8 or 10 shorter needles, while farther south only 5 longer needles were
used. I am not sure which system was used in Yorkshire -- perhaps both?
I
suspect that it had to do with the weight of the yarn being used.
Heavier
garments were likely knit on more needles, lighter yarns could be managed
on
fewer needles.

Then there are the knitting sticks from the continent. They are longer -
was that to allow for different lengths of needles? Or, for some other
reason? For example securing the left needle? (so that the left hand
could
control the yarn in the continental style.)

I have seen people knitting with the right needle clamped firmly under
their arm: no knitting stick. I'm pretty sure that's the way the older
women knit here in Italy, but I'm not 100% sure that it's here I saw
it.

--
Barbara Vaughan

My email address is my first initial followed by my last name at libero
dot it.

Using the thumb and forfinger to through the yarn is slower, but you can get
a really tight tension if you want to knit a windproof garment or want those
stitches to stand out boldly.

Aaron


"The Jonathan Lady" wrote in message
...

"B Vaughan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:35:47 GMT, wrote:


I have seen people knitting with the right needle clamped firmly under
their arm: no knitting stick. I'm pretty sure that's the way the older
women knit here in Italy, but I'm not 100% sure that it's here I saw
it.

--
Barbara Vaughan


It's interesting that you should mention this, Barbara. While I was
looking
at yarns at the shop in Siena (which I wrote about in a previous post),
the
shopkeeper was helping 2 other woman. While talking with them, she
knitted
a swatch from a yarn they seemed to be considering. It appeared to me
that
she was holding the right needle exactly as you described. I wish now I
had
watched her more closely but I didn't want to stare. Also, I noticed that
she "threw" the yarn with her right hand by holding it between her thumb
and
index finger. It seemed much slower than the way I do it which is to
carry
the yarn over the end of my index finger.

--
Jan in MN
.

Michal chiming in from out of the blue....

Here in the US I wasn't taught to knit that way, but I often anchor the
right needle somewhere (chair cushion, legs, pocket, etc) and throw the
yarn with my right index finger & thumb while manipulating the left
needle to make the stitches. It's very fast for ribbing as well as
plain knitting or purling. A leather "holster" of some kind has
occurred to me as a way to knit while standing or walking.

I've since taught myself continental knitting (with which I still have
diffuculty purling!) and like it for plain knitting.

I'll go check out the knitting sticks before babbling further....


The Jonathan Lady wrote:
"B Vaughan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:35:47 GMT, wrote:


I have seen people knitting with the right needle clamped firmly under
their arm: no knitting stick. I'm pretty sure that's the way the older
women knit here in Italy, but I'm not 100% sure that it's here I saw
it.

--
Barbara Vaughan


It's interesting that you should mention this, Barbara. While I was looking
at yarns at the shop in Siena (which I wrote about in a previous post), the
shopkeeper was helping 2 other woman. While talking with them, she knitted
a swatch from a yarn they seemed to be considering. It appeared to me that
she was holding the right needle exactly as you described. I wish now I had
watched her more closely but I didn't want to stare. Also, I noticed that
she "threw" the yarn with her right hand by holding it between her thumb and
index finger. It seemed much slower than the way I do it which is to carry
the yarn over the end of my index finger.

--
Jan in MN
.

In article ,
Aaron wrote:
OK! So why are all of these older methods of knittng falling by the wayside?

Well, actually, they aren't. A few years ago, in _Knitting Around the
World_, several different ways of holding the needles were illustrated,
including the "needle under arm" method. I'm told that in Portugal the old
way of knitting with hooked needles is coming back into favor. It's just
that the glossy magazines usually only show the standard western methods.

Sure technology advanced allowing high quality circular needles, and long
DPN are a safety hazard, but are there issues related to knitting quality or
knitting speed? Is it a matter that we have gotten lazy and just buy the
needles offered by the big needle companies, or are these the best knitting
tools that history has to offer?

In some ways, we have some of the finest knitting tools ever made. Light-
weight aluminum needles are a joy to use; try some solid steel needles made
from flawed castings in WWII if you don't think so. I found some at a flea
market and they weigh a ton! Yes, they are smooth - but my hands were
tired in minutes. At sock needles size it makes less difference, but it
still matters. (I haven't found any size 0000 aluminum needles to compare
with my steel ones.) Not only are they light, they are smoothly finished
and have nicely rounded points that taper a bit, which makes it much easier
to get the tip of the needle into a tight gauge stitch. Add to that the
choices of bright colors that let me pick a needle that will show up
by contrasting with the yarn color, and it becomes fairly easy even to
knit with black yarn.

I have a collection of ordinary steel dpns in sizes ranging from US
size 3 to US size 00000. Probably most of them were made in the early
20th century; there's no way to tell. Most of them have some kind of
taper to the ends, but all the fine ones are sharp enough to poke my
fingers painfully. A few sets have no tapering at all, just a sharp
point where they were cut to length.

I think that today we have fewer "Knitting Guild" quality knitters,
so there is less demand for the high-end tools used to produce guild
quality knitting. Most of the knitting tools that I see on the
market are inexpensive tools for hobbists. Well, some of them are
not so inexpensive, but are they really the best tools for really
high quality knitting?

It is true that for a while it was next to impossible to get the
really long dpns to knit ganseys, and I've read that it has been
very hard to buy size 000 dpns in Europe, and both of those happened
because there was little demand for those tools. Circular needles
almost eliminated the last customer base for the old long straight
dpns. Trade is a factor, too: when you can buy a plain blue
stockinette sweater easily and cheaply, why bother to knit one?

The medieval knitting guild members had tools that were no better
than the tools available in the 19th and early 20th century.
The difference was that they could get paid enough for their skill
and time to make a living at hand knitting. The modern western
knitter, who really doesn't have to knit just to get knitted items
to wear, is less motivated to work very fine materials and is often
under some pressure to produce the desired fabric as quickly as
possible, so that their regular work can be done.

I wouldn't blame the tools for the quality of the knitting. The
Andean knitters in South America routinely make their own knitting
needles out of bicycle spokes. They produce very fine work.
Motivation is all.

Do we knit the way we knit because it is easy to teach and learn,
or because it produces the best results?

There's a hidden assumption in there, that "we" all knit the same way.
Many of the readers of this newsgroup have posted about how they knit
in ways that are different from the "standard" methods described in
most "how to knit" books. All of the methods produce a knitted fabric.
Some methods are more efficient for more people, but for every method,
there is someone for whom that method works best.

The "standard" methods are easy to teach and learn, but I think they
might not be the most efficient for the most people. What is easiest
to describe is not necessarily the best way to do anything.

Moreover, high technical skills requires constant practice.

Continual, or at least frequent, yes. (Look up "constant" and
"continual" - you may be surprised.)

Someone that knits only a few hours a month can not be as proficient
as someone who knits a few hours a day. If I do not knit for a while,
then I have to do some easy socks and hats to regain the muscles and
skills. Thus, I will never be as good as you guys that practice
and train on a regular schedule

Ha! I can see us now - "Hup! Two! Knit! Purl! All together now!
Get those needles moving!"

But really, a few hours a day spent knitting with an inefficient
method, followed by ripping out, will not necessarily produce as
good a result as a few hours a month spent knitting efficiently
with a method that makes the best use of motions and doesn't strain
the hands and wrists.

=Tamar