Mirjam - how are you?

On Jan 5, 2:55*pm, (F.James Cripwell) wrote:
) writes:

(snip)

Several people have said that this is an ages old conflict, but that's
not actually correct. *Active conflicts between Jews and
Arabsprimarily date to after World War I, when the United Kingdom
failed to live up to the promises they made to Arab nationalists to
get them to help topple the Ottoman Empire, while encouraging European
Jews to settle the same lands.

Elizabeth

If you are talking actual fighting you have a point. *But one of the main
issues between the Israelis and the Palistinians is who owns the real
estate. *That argument goes back over 2000 years.

It doesn't. The evidence to support the argument goes back over 2000
years, but the argument itself is an artifact of the late 19th and
early 20th centuries and of European concepts of both nation and
property being imported into an area which had neither. Arab tenant
farmers lived for centuries on lands held by absentee landlords in the
Ottoman court until European Jews bought those lands and kicked the
tenant farmers off so that they could settle there themselves. The
Arabs didn't understand what gave them the right to do that - that
kind of behavior had been unheard of in that region.

Elizabeth

Elizabeth

With all Due respect

Your claim that it

estate. *That argument goes back over 2000 years.

It doesn't. *The evidence to support the argument goes back over 2000
years,
Elizabeth- Hide quoted text -

# Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, Two
thousand
years before the rise of Islam.

# Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion
over the
land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the
land for the
past 3,300 years.


# . For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital
Jerusalem has
never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the
Jordanians
occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital,
and Arab
leaders did not come to visit.


#. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish
Holy
Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the
Koran.

My Maternal family like many others spoke Hebrew as far as i know
them ,, they always wished tom return to the fathers country .

Please remember that
.. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward
Jerusalem.

just wanted to correct that WRONG 2000 years that jumped in ..

On Jan 5, 9:35*pm, wrote:
On Jan 5, 1:52*pm, ellice wrote:





On 1/4/09 2:52 PM, " wrote:

On Jan 4, 9:38*am, ellice wrote:
On 1/1/09 3:54 PM, " wrote:

On Jan 1, 8:51*am, ellice wrote:
On 12/31/08 6:37 PM, *"Pat P" wrote:

wrote in message
...

Lucretia

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

I haven`t seen you ever protest the Ongoing Rockets Shooting at
civilians , children , hospitals etc on our side of the border ,
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

Look at this and ask yourself How long YOU would have waited to stop
it ,
Please notice that the Egyptian Government and the Palestinian
President told the Hamas that they are to be balmaed because they were
warned warned and warned to stop sending rockets over Israel ,
mirjam

On the other hand, what shocks most of us is the totally OTT response by
Israel. *If two or three people in a town *anywhere in the world get
killed
the normal reaction isn`t to go and kill more than 300 indiscriminately!

All that`s going to do is produce even more terrorism and suicide bombings
all over the world (Like we had recently in Mumbai).

Pat

OTOH, most people in the world don't have such a huge set of groups set on
annihilating them. *I think that sadly, minimal responses have proven to be
insignificant in effectiveness.

And the overwhelming responses have somehow been more effective? *I
don't think so: they haven't stopped the attacks and they've ruined
Israel's reputation among many who would otherwise have been
supporters.

Elizabeth

It's a sad situation regardless. *If you respond in kind, it doesn't matter.
If you are peaceful, well, what did that get? *So, there isa school of
thought that supports the hefty response - not saying it's my idea
personally. *

And there's a school of thought that says that if a less powerful
opponent can get a more powerful opponent to respond with too much
force, the less powerful opponent wins: in terms of public opinion, in
terms of recruiting more fighters, in terms of moral superiority
(although that's kind of moot in warfare). *"The guerrilla wins unless
he loses."

I never said that Israel shouldn't respond, I'm just not sure that OTT
responses have their desired effects on any level.

Elizabeth

I'm not sure about your definition for more powerful opponent - given the
relative sizes of population involved. *The Muslim world is a huge
population, far greater than the Jewish one. *Not at all implicating that
all Muslims follow the hard-core line of ridding the world of infidels.
But, this is an ages old conflict, and we sit on the outside looking in on
something horrid. *I cannot say that I like the huge response, but I can
feel for the conundrum that faces Israel. *No doubt the arguments are fierce
there as well.

Let's not be extreme, Ellice. *Israel isn't fighting with the whole
Muslim world. *It isn't even fighting with the whole Arab Muslim
world. * At the moment, it is fighting a tiny fraction of that world.
That aside, my definition of more powerful opponent is "militarily
more powerful" which Israel in the region is by most measures
including wars won.



The Thinker who most shaped Bin Laden`s views, and who drew up Al
Qaeda `s founding cahrter in 1987-8, was Dr Abdullah *Azzam . A
Jordanian Plestinian and doctor of Islamic jurisprudence , ` the most
influential of all the exponents of the modern jihadist movements and
one of the architects of HAMAS , Azzam was instrumential with bin
laden in setting up the Afgahn Service Bureau, an organisation
that assisted the Mujahidin in Afgahnistan .

from
"Al Quaeda , and what it means to be Modern", by John Gray , Faber and
faber , 2003, page 78 .

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:45:35 -0500, "lucille"
wrote:

I know I'm going to get a lot of people annoyed but I must say that
because
I had a lot of experience with a genetic disease that affects only Jewish
people and according to a genetic study done by Johns Hopkins University
this genetic defect may be traced back all the way to the original twelve
tribes, I believe that Jewish may be a race and not just a religion.

It's very difficult to prove anything because records for Jewish people
who
never had a permanent home until Israel became a state, are nearly
impossible to trace back more then a couple of generations.

Lucille

No argument from me. If you define race by a genetic difference, it
very well may be true. However, not all Israeli's are Jewish, so
there's the flap. Judaism is definitely a religion. Whether it's a
race or not is undetermined, but we all know it's Asian, right?

RD&H
Victoria

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Updated daily when able.


Potato, Putahto--Let's call the whole thing off======

Lucille

) writes:
It doesn't. The evidence to support the argument goes back over 2000
years, but the argument itself is an artifact of the late 19th and
early 20th centuries and of European concepts of both nation and
property being imported into an area which had neither. Arab tenant
farmers lived for centuries on lands held by absentee landlords in the
Ottoman court until European Jews bought those lands and kicked the
tenant farmers off so that they could settle there themselves. The
Arabs didn't understand what gave them the right to do that - that
kind of behavior had been unheard of in that region.

Elizabeth

Mirjam knows much more about this than I do, but one of the pieces of real
estate which is fiercely debated is that little bit of land on which the
Muslim Mosque (Dome of the Rock?) is built. Right next to it is the
Wailing Wall, which is, I believe, the holiest site in Judaism. In David's
and Solomon's time this is where the Jewish Temples were built. The
Wailing Wall is the remains of the last Jewish Temple that was built on
the site. I believe the site is sacred to three religions; Muslim, Judah,
and Christian.

On 1/5/09 2:45 PM, "lucille" wrote:

"ellice" wrote in message
...
On 1/4/09 6:12 PM, "lucille" wrote:

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 11:47:09 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Um, hello, Jim? You will side with Mirjam in what? Calling me an
anti-Semite? What did I ever do to you? Please note that the
paragraph you quote is a diatribe against me, asking why she should
discuss Israeli policy with me, when I was not discussing it with her
in the first place. If you want to agree with Mirjam about Israeli
policy, that's fine, but please note that the paragraph you're
agreeing with proclaims that only those who live there have the right
to comment on what the Israeli government does, so that leave you
right out as well.

Elizabeth

This seems to be the attitude of many Israelis. I befriended an
elderly woman whose husband died. She in her 70s, her name is Avi,
from Israel, but here for many years. Though she lived in America for
fifty years she still couldn't write or read much English. Her
computer keyboard was Hebrew.

Anyway, we got into a discussion one day and I told her my mother was
Jewish and she said, "No she is not, unless you are born in Israel you
are not a true Jew." Huh? Yes, that was her attitude.

Seriousness aside, the women in my family on the Russian side always
declared they were Jews, but only because they got their nails done,
ate bagels with a shmear with nova and ate matzos!

Then there were the Great, Great Aunties who lived through camps with
tattoos who were also told they weren't real Jews. Feh.
Victoria

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Updated daily when able.




I worked for an American Zionist Organization for years, mostly with
Israeli
Doctors and Educators, and I even went to Israel for 6 weeks to work at a
convention and not one Israeli citizen ever said anything so outrageous
or
hateful. As a matter of fact my husband had relatives who are sabras
and
they certainly never thought that way. I would also like to know who in
their right mind would tell someone who lived through the camps that they
weren't Jewish. You seem to know an awful lot of intolerant and strange
people.


I'm with you on this, Lucille. I have extended family who are Israeli
(SIL's SIL is a sabra) and they're lovely people. At the same time, I've
some colleagues and friends that are Israeli, - some here, some there. I
will say that I often find a sort of abruptness with them - they are very
forthright in conversation (especially work discussions). I've certainly
smoothed over some arguments, or comments - but I think that brusqueness
is
a result of how life is/was. But, I've never, ever heard such nonsense as
saying that you are not Jewish if you don't live in Israel. Perhaps this
woman meant that it is a duty to go to Israel. Who knows.

Just as an aside, my mom was a bookkeeper for Jewish Federation when my
parents married, and until I was born. I remember her taking me to visit
colleagues in the city when I was a little girl.

Zionism, versus your religion. Of course, Israel has its issues with the
Orthodox rabbinic council dictating so much. And here, you will find
similar attitudes about Judaic birthright from various practitioners - be
they Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist, Chasadim, etc.

Very bizarre.

Ellice

I don't disagree with you and what you're saying. I was responding to the
outrageous story by someone who should know better then to repeat such
nonsense.

I know I'm going to get a lot of people annoyed but I must say that because
I had a lot of experience with a genetic disease that affects only Jewish
people and according to a genetic study done by Johns Hopkins University
this genetic defect may be traced back all the way to the original twelve
tribes, I believe that Jewish may be a race and not just a religion.

I understand your point. Perhaps it is in the modern interpretation that we
think of it both ways - as a culture/people and as a religion.

This past weekend we were at brunch with several friends - all Jewish - and
had an interesting discussion about Aramaeic. One of the couples had become
friendly with immigrants that were Iraqui Jews - and actually spoke Aramaic.
Apparently this small group of people that have survived for thousands of
years, staying in the region of what was once Mesopotamia have been found to
be the only surviving speakers of Aramaic. Bringing us to discuss Passover,
and the line about "my father was a fugitive Arameaen."

Certainly there are genetic diseases which link to the Jewish people, and
likely the 12 tribes. I think now, however, in practice, being Jewish is
practicing the faith. Or considering oneself to be Jewish by birth, or
culturally so - but not religiously.

One of my friends did a term paper for some psych class in nursing school -
about Jewish intellectual bias - mostly focussed on the Ashkenazi people.
It was pretty interesting - especially as she did her research. FWIW, she's
Bengali (Indian from Calcutta area).

It's very difficult to prove anything because records for Jewish people who
never had a permanent home until Israel became a state, are nearly
impossible to trace back more then a couple of generations.

Lucille

Absolutely. For my mother's father - who came over after some pogroms when
he was about 8, he only knew his birthday as the 3rd candle of Hanukah.
Hard to find records on that side. The Austrian side, much easier.

Ellice

On Jan 5, 3:44*pm, wrote:
On Jan 5, 9:35*pm, wrote:



On Jan 5, 1:52*pm, ellice wrote:

On 1/4/09 2:52 PM, " wrote:

On Jan 4, 9:38*am, ellice wrote:
On 1/1/09 3:54 PM, " wrote:

On Jan 1, 8:51*am, ellice wrote:
On 12/31/08 6:37 PM, *"Pat P" wrote:

wrote in message
...

Lucretia

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

I haven`t seen you ever protest the Ongoing Rockets Shooting at
civilians , children , hospitals etc on our side of the border ,
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

Look at this and ask yourself How long YOU would have waited to stop
it ,
Please notice that the Egyptian Government and the Palestinian
President told the Hamas that they are to be balmaed because they were
warned warned and warned to stop sending rockets over Israel ,
mirjam

On the other hand, what shocks most of us is the totally OTT response by
Israel. *If two or three people in a town *anywhere in the world get
killed
the normal reaction isn`t to go and kill more than 300 indiscriminately!

All that`s going to do is produce even more terrorism and suicide bombings
all over the world (Like we had recently in Mumbai).

Pat

OTOH, most people in the world don't have such a huge set of groups set on
annihilating them. *I think that sadly, minimal responses have proven to be
insignificant in effectiveness.

And the overwhelming responses have somehow been more effective? *I
don't think so: they haven't stopped the attacks and they've ruined
Israel's reputation among many who would otherwise have been
supporters.

Elizabeth

It's a sad situation regardless. *If you respond in kind, it doesn't matter.
If you are peaceful, well, what did that get? *So, there isa school of
thought that supports the hefty response - not saying it's my idea
personally. *

And there's a school of thought that says that if a less powerful
opponent can get a more powerful opponent to respond with too much
force, the less powerful opponent wins: in terms of public opinion, in
terms of recruiting more fighters, in terms of moral superiority
(although that's kind of moot in warfare). *"The guerrilla wins unless
he loses."

I never said that Israel shouldn't respond, I'm just not sure that OTT
responses have their desired effects on any level.

Elizabeth

I'm not sure about your definition for more powerful opponent - given the
relative sizes of population involved. *The Muslim world is a huge
population, far greater than the Jewish one. *Not at all implicating that
all Muslims follow the hard-core line of ridding the world of infidels.
But, this is an ages old conflict, and we sit on the outside looking in on
something horrid. *I cannot say that I like the huge response, but I can
feel for the conundrum that faces Israel. *No doubt the arguments are fierce
there as well.

Let's not be extreme, Ellice. *Israel isn't fighting with the whole
Muslim world. *It isn't even fighting with the whole Arab Muslim
world. * At the moment, it is fighting a tiny fraction of that world.
That aside, my definition of more powerful opponent is "militarily
more powerful" which Israel in the region is by most measures
including wars won.

The Thinker who most shaped Bin Laden`s views, and who drew up Al
Qaeda `s founding cahrter in 1987-8, was Dr Abdullah *Azzam . A
Jordanian Plestinian and doctor of Islamic jurisprudence , ` the most
influential of all the exponents of the modern jihadist movements and
one of the architects of HAMAS , Azzam was instrumential with bin
laden in setting up the Afgahn Service Bureau, an organisation
that assisted the Mujahidin in Afgahnistan .

from
"Al Quaeda , and what it means to be Modern", by John Gray , Faber and
faber , 2003, page 78 .

I could have sworn you said you had no wish to discuss this with me,
yet you keep following up to me. If you don't wish to discuss things
with me, please don't.

Elizabeth

On Jan 5, 4:53*pm, (F.James Cripwell) wrote:
) writes:
It doesn't. *The evidence to support the argument goes back over 2000
years, but the argument itself is an artifact of the late 19th and
early 20th centuries and of European concepts of both nation and
property being imported into an area which had neither. *Arab tenant
farmers lived for centuries on lands held by absentee landlords in the
Ottoman court until European Jews bought those lands and kicked the
tenant farmers off so that they could settle there themselves. *The
Arabs didn't understand what gave them the right to do that - that
kind of behavior had been unheard of in that region.

Elizabeth

Mirjam knows much more about this than I do, but one of the pieces of real
estate which is fiercely debated is that little bit of land on which the
Muslim Mosque (Dome of the Rock?) is built. *Right next to it is the
Wailing Wall, which is, I believe, the holiest site in Judaism. *In David's
and Solomon's time this is where the Jewish Temples were built. *The
Wailing Wall is the remains of the last Jewish Temple that was built on
the site. *I believe the site is sacred to three religions; *Muslim, Judah,
and Christian.

Right, but when did the three religions actually start arguing about
it? I'm not arguing that the evidence isn't there to support various
claims, I'm saying that the claims themselves were not all asserted
until modern times.

Elizabeth

The Jews built both Temples , after the Romans destroyed the 2nd
Temple Christainity wasn`t even formed as a religion .. Only after it
became a religion it started to claim the place .
mirjam

wrote:

Right, but when did the three religions actually start arguing about
it? I'm not arguing that the evidence isn't there to support various
claims, I'm saying that the claims themselves were not all asserted
until modern times.

Elizabeth

Do you consider the Crusades to be "modern times"?

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans