Mirjam - how are you?

On 1/1/09 3:54 PM, " wrote:

On Jan 1, 8:51*am, ellice wrote:
On 12/31/08 6:37 PM, *"Pat P" wrote:





wrote in message
...

Lucretia

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

I haven`t seen you ever protest the Ongoing Rockets Shooting at
civilians , children , hospitals etc on our side of the border ,
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

Look at this and ask yourself How long YOU would have waited to stop
it ,
Please notice that the Egyptian Government and the Palestinian
President told the Hamas that they are to be balmaed because they were
warned warned and warned to stop sending rockets over Israel ,
mirjam

On the other hand, what shocks most of us is the totally OTT response by
Israel. *If two or three people in a town *anywhere in the world get killed
the normal reaction isn`t to go and kill more than 300 indiscriminately!

All that`s going to do is produce even more terrorism and suicide bombings
all over the world (Like we had recently in Mumbai).

Pat

OTOH, most people in the world don't have such a huge set of groups set on
annihilating them. *I think that sadly, minimal responses have proven to be
insignificant in effectiveness.

And the overwhelming responses have somehow been more effective? I
don't think so: they haven't stopped the attacks and they've ruined
Israel's reputation among many who would otherwise have been
supporters.

Elizabeth

It's a sad situation regardless. If you respond in kind, it doesn't matter.
If you are peaceful, well, what did that get? So, there isa school of
thought that supports the hefty response - not saying it's my idea
personally. And. Lets be realistic - a lot of the world just doesn't really
care except when something graphically horrible pops up on the media. Why
would groups that support suicide bombings, and preach the annihilation of a
people be stopped with modest responses? If they are so committed as to
suicide bombings killing their own people, then ....

If nothing else, the overwhelming response is forcing people and the world
to take a look again. Those that have sat on the fence, especially the
politely anti-semitic posture - wouldn't support Israel before, and won't
now. It's vicious cycle, to be trite, with no easy answers.

Ellice

) writes:
You are the one that for years flamed attacked and called me liar ,
you have no clue about anything that goes on here ,
it is my country Our people our friends who uneder fitre , and being
shot at ,, Not you ,, thus why should i discuss it with you ? do you
have acces to those Terrorists Groups , can you influence them to stop
shooting ROCKETS ,,, No ,,,
I told you in the past when i posted , that a Terror act happened here
did you ever CONDEMM those terrorists No !!!
thus just now i have no reason to discuss the policy of my country
with you ,,
mirjam

At considerable risk in coming into the debate at all, I will side with
Mirjam. This conflict has been going on for over 2000 years, as to who
owns this particular piece of real estate. Who is right and who is wrong,
I have no idea. Probably both sides are right and both are wrong.
However, I lived through WWII and the blitz and everything else. There
were no "cililians" and "military" in that war. Everyone was a
participant and a potential target. The Germans tried to starve us into
submission, and we bombed German cities to eliminate them. "War is hell"
to quote Gen Sherman. Howsever, in this conflict I trust the Israelis to
do anything they commit to. They are a democracy. I do not trust the
Muslims, as rctners already know. Some Muslims have shown themselves to be
international terrorists.

lucretia borgia ) writes:
On 4 Jan 2009 14:41:54 GMT, (F.James
Cripwell) opined:


They are a democracy. I do not trust the
Muslims, as rctners already know. Some Muslims have shown themselves to be
international terrorists.

Yes, that Maher Arar what a nasty job he was ! You couldn't wait to
condemn him, then his wife when she took up his cause to get him out
of Syria, we could see she had her head covered so was clearly a
terrorist too.

I was expecting that sort of thing. Here in Canada we are a democracy,
and have an independent judiciary. I have made up my mind on the guilt or
innocence of many different people, including Henry Morganthaler, who was
found to be innocent, and Pickton, who was found to be guilty. My opinion
does not matter. The courts decide. Our courts decided that Maher Arar
was completley innocent, he has been absolved of any criminal activity,
and has been financially compensated. I know money is not enough to put
right all the wrongs that were done, but I am afraid that is life.
Doubtless in the future I will make up my mind on other cases. I suspect
sometimes I will be right, and sometimes wrong. So what?

lucretia borgia ) writes:

Except you didn't wait for any court case, you were certain he was a
terrorist and deserved everything he received.

Of course!!!!!!! I didn't wait for the SCOC ruling that declared Henry
Morganthaler to be innocent either. I didn't wait for the jury decision
before I decided Robert Latimer was innocent, and he was found guilty. He
did not deserve to go to prison at all, IMHO. I didn't wait for the court
decision that decided Pickton was guilty. What difference does it make
what I think in legal cases?

On Jan 4, 9:41*am, (F.James Cripwell) wrote:
) writes:
You are the one that for years flamed attacked and called me liar ,
you have no clue about anything that goes on here ,
it is my country Our people our friends who uneder fitre , and being
shot at ,, Not you ,, thus why should i discuss it with you ? do you
have acces to those Terrorists Groups , can you influence them to stop
shooting ROCKETS ,,, No ,,,
I told you in the past when i posted , that a Terror act happened here
did you ever CONDEMM those terrorists No !!!
thus just now i have no reason to discuss the policy of my country
with you ,,
mirjam

At considerable risk in coming into the debate at all, I will side with
Mirjam. *This conflict has been going on for over 2000 years, as to who
owns this particular piece of real estate. *Who is right and who is wrong,
I have no idea. *Probably both sides are right and both are wrong.
However, I lived through WWII and the blitz and everything else. *There
were no "cililians" and "military" in that war. *Everyone was a
participant and a potential target. *The Germans tried to starve us into
submission, and we bombed German cities to eliminate them. *"War is hell"
to quote Gen Sherman. *Howsever, in this conflict I trust the Israelis to
do anything they commit to. *They are a democracy. *I do not trust the
Muslims, as rctners already know. *Some Muslims have shown themselves to be
international terrorists.

Um, hello, Jim? You will side with Mirjam in what? Calling me an
anti-Semite? What did I ever do to you? Please note that the
paragraph you quote is a diatribe against me, asking why she should
discuss Israeli policy with me, when I was not discussing it with her
in the first place. If you want to agree with Mirjam about Israeli
policy, that's fine, but please note that the paragraph you're
agreeing with proclaims that only those who live there have the right
to comment on what the Israeli government does, so that leave you
right out as well.

Elizabeth

On Jan 4, 7:41*am, wrote:

thus just now i have no reason to discuss the policy of my country
with you ,,

Perfect. Then I really don't understand why you followed up to my
post. Please, the next time you have no reason to discuss something
with me, don't discuss it with me. We'll both be happier.

Elizabeth

On Jan 4, 9:38*am, ellice wrote:
On 1/1/09 3:54 PM, " wrote:



On Jan 1, 8:51*am, ellice wrote:
On 12/31/08 6:37 PM, *"Pat P" wrote:

wrote in message
....

Lucretia

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

I haven`t seen you ever protest the Ongoing Rockets Shooting at
civilians , children , hospitals etc on our side of the border ,
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/15seconds.asp

Look at this and ask yourself How long YOU would have waited to stop
it ,
Please notice that the Egyptian Government and the Palestinian
President told the Hamas that they are to be balmaed because they were
warned warned and warned to stop sending rockets over Israel ,
mirjam

On the other hand, what shocks most of us is the totally OTT response by
Israel. *If two or three people in a town *anywhere in the world get killed
the normal reaction isn`t to go and kill more than 300 indiscriminately!

All that`s going to do is produce even more terrorism and suicide bombings
all over the world (Like we had recently in Mumbai).

Pat

OTOH, most people in the world don't have such a huge set of groups set on
annihilating them. *I think that sadly, minimal responses have proven to be
insignificant in effectiveness.

And the overwhelming responses have somehow been more effective? *I
don't think so: they haven't stopped the attacks and they've ruined
Israel's reputation among many who would otherwise have been
supporters.

Elizabeth

It's a sad situation regardless. *If you respond in kind, it doesn't matter.
If you are peaceful, well, what did that get? *So, there isa school of
thought that supports the hefty response - not saying it's my idea
personally. *

And there's a school of thought that says that if a less powerful
opponent can get a more powerful opponent to respond with too much
force, the less powerful opponent wins: in terms of public opinion, in
terms of recruiting more fighters, in terms of moral superiority
(although that's kind of moot in warfare). "The guerrilla wins unless
he loses."

I never said that Israel shouldn't respond, I'm just not sure that OTT
responses have their desired effects on any level.

Elizabeth

) writes:
(snip)
I never said that Israel shouldn't respond, I'm just not sure that OTT
responses have their desired effects on any level.

Elizabeth

Elizabeth, you dont understand lex talonis; the law of the jungle. If I
am stronger than you are, and you break one of my legs, I break both of
yours in return, and put out one of your eyes as well. The Israelis
understand lex talonis.

"F.James Cripwell" wrote
Elizabeth, you dont understand lex talonis; the law of the jungle. If I
am stronger than you are, and you break one of my legs, I break both of
yours in return, and put out one of your eyes as well. The Israelis
understand lex talonis.

So, we should aspire to live like wild beasts?
Why not just burn all the books of wisdom, philosphy and religion that have
led people to aspire to being something other than violent animals?
Dawne

On Jan 4, 3:51*pm, (F.James Cripwell) wrote:
) writes:

(snip)

I never said that Israel shouldn't respond, I'm just not sure that OTT
responses have their desired effects on any level.

Elizabeth

Elizabeth, you dont understand lex talonis; *the law of the jungle. *If I
am stronger than you are, and you break one of my legs, I break both of
yours in return, and put out one of your eyes as well. *The Israelis
understand lex talonis.

Jim, I understand the law of the jungle, I just don't think that it is
effective. Last I knew, humans emerged from the jungle a long time
ago. Israel's problem is that they want to apply the law of the
jungle in a world that would like to consider itself civilized. When
democratic societies behave that way, they should expect to be
criticized. It's unfair, it's hypocritical, but it is the way things
are. It's unfortunate for Israel that they will be criticized for
their response. It is even more unfortunate that it won't work any
better than it has worked the last many times they have applied it.

Elizabeth