Very OT - Fahrenheit 9/11

My understanding is that Allah is the only Arabic word for God, and that
Arabic Christians call God Allah.
--
Karleen Page/Vibrant Jewels
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"vj" wrote in very good, Tina!
just like [i think it was Louis' suggestion?] try replacing "under
God" in the pledge with "under Allah" and listen to them scream!

Christina Peterson wrote:
She went on to say the Jesus said "I am the (only)
way." I told her I couldn't believe that. That Jesus would not be so
self-centered.

Isn't there something in the bible to the effect of
"There are many paths to my father's house"?

Not only would Jesus not be that self-centered, but God
wouldn't be that petty.

Lisa

Karleen/Vibrant Jewels wrote:
Thanks for saying that Carla. I've found a lot of people who claim to be atheists, pagans and other types of non-Christians to be extremely
threatening also...

Threatening only if you allow them to be threatening. I find that
people who find my religion threatening are people who are not entirely
sure of their own, as though one word from me would puff their God out
of existance. Is your faith that shakey? If your faith is strong, then
you have nothing to fear.

(Even if your faith *isn't* strong, you still don't have anything to
worry about. It's all in your imagination.)

Christians who wring their hands and moan about how persecuted they are
in America really crack me up. It's like saying white people were being
discriminated against when blacks were given the right to vote, and not
made to eat at the "colored only" lunch counter.

Religous freedom, like civil rights, is not a zero-sum game. Allowing
me to worship a sack of lug nuts (if I so choose) does not take away one
iota of your freedom to worship the God of Abraham.

Moral according to whom?
Living according to the morals that Jesus taught is what I meant

It may come as a surprise to you, but other religions and spiritual
paths teach many, if not most, of the same morals and ethics that Jesus
taught. If you gave yourself permission to learn about other religions,
and had no fear of losing your own, then perhaps you would realize that.
Most of the major differences between are rituals and other
window-dressing, anyway.

(As a Pagan, I've read and learned more about Christianity than I did
when I was Catholic. The more I read, the less I regret my decision to
leave the Church. Naturally, YMMV.)

Arondelle
--
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To email me, empty the pond with a net
Read my Blog: http://www.red-death.com/~arondelle/...ing/index.html

roxan wrote:

This is what happens when you have a patriarchal world view run by men.
Women carry most of the spiritual consciousness but with little power to
change governments. The Goddess part of God is not balanced in the spiritual
approach in most parts of the world, because of this we have little
tolerance for others beliefs. This filters into attitudes towards how they
run their governments.

Have you read "When God Was a Woman"? I can't remember
the name of the author and I believe back in the 70s,
but it's a fascinating book. If you're interested, I'll
find the book and give you the author's name.

Lisa

Karleen/Vibrant Jewels wrote:
If our rights however are not inherent in our humanness, and are determined
by legal fiat of the current administration, then they are subject to human
whim. And then, as I said, certain groups of humans are given "subhuman"
status without the rights that the rest of us enjoy. This happened to the
Jews and other "undesirables" in Nazi Germany, this is what happened to
blacks in this country during the slavery period, this is what has happened
to fetuses since 1971, and on the horizon, via euthanasia, this is what will
happen to any number of kinds of undersirables due to age, illness,
infirmity, or mental defect.

Goerge Bush and his adminstration don't seem to have any problem with
denying people their human and civil rights. Apparently, the only way
to protect our freedoms is to take them away and lock them up for
safe-keeping.

It is extremely low of you to liken pro-choice people to Nazis.

My only comments on abortion:

1. I am not pro-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I would never have had one,
myself, but I fully support other women's right to choose abortion if
they needed to.

2. I have observed that many "Pro-Life" politicians seem to lose
interest in unborn children once they have become born children. They
seem to be determined to dismantle every social and economic support
systems that would aid families with children. They also seem to be
against the prevention of unwanted pregnancies: contraception,
apparently, is also immoral. Only [their] God should determine whether
or not a woman becomes pregnant. The woman has no right to decide.

3. I still can't see how radical Anti-Choice proponents can reconcile
their view that abortion is evil, and yet have no problem blowing up
women's clinics (killing and injuring workers and patients there) and
shooting doctors. They seem to think that captial punishment is OK,
too. Is life precious only while it is in the womb?

Arondelle
--
================================================== =========
To email me, empty the pond with a net

Christina Peterson wrote:
She went on to say the Jesus said "I am the (only)
way." I told her I couldn't believe that. That Jesus would not be so
self-centered.

Isn't there something in the bible to the effect of
"There are many paths to my father's house"?

Not only would Jesus not be that self-centered, but God
wouldn't be that petty.

Lisa

John 14:1-7 [NIV]
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my
Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I
am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place
for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be
where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we
know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to
the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my
Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 10:1-18 [NIV]
"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate,
but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters
by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for
him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and
leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of
them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will
never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they
do not recognize a stranger's voice." Jesus used this figure of speech, but
they did not understand what he was telling them.

Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the
sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep
did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be
saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to
steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it
to the full.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the
wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the
flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and
cares nothing for the sheep.

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--just as the
Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.
They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one
shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to
take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own
accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.
This command I received from my Father."

I went through this with my Mom. She also asked me to make it end and I
would have done anything to make it happen - but I couldn't. Her last week
or so was absolutely horrible. Nothing touched the pain. She was on a
morphine drip with the us being able to administer "extras" at set
intervals, derma patches, and something else. The hospice people were
surprised the amount of morphine didn't put her into a coma- wish it had.
That has been the most painful thing I've gone through - watching her
suffering so much. I don't ever want to do it again. My Dad fortunately
did not have pain.

Kathy K
"Kathy N-V" wrote in message
. giganews.com...
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:44:27 -0400, roxan wrote
(in message ):

Having just gone through seeing my dad died a difficult death and having
him
beg me for euthanasia, I would have given him it in a heart beat if it
was
allowed. This is a choice we should all be allowed to do it we want to.

Roxan, I am so sorry that your Dad suffered so. Was his request
precipitated by unendurable pain? I know that we were able to help
my MIL in the last weeks of her life by easing her pain, with the
help of the hospice people.

There is a time for everything, a time to live and a time to die and
honoring it is the highest form of knowing ourselves. I only hope when
my
time comes it will be legal in my state. While there are many lesson to
be
learned in the dying process there is a time when suffering and no
quality
of life is the only thing left. If I could have eased my dad passing I
would
have done it with no guilt and with joy that he didn't have to suffer
any
longer.

Which is why I'm so supportive of hospice. They do not speed the
dying process, they just do nothing to slow it. Unlike doctors, they
do not view death as a defeat to be fought at all costs. Their
entire goal is to make the person comfortable and their passing
peaceful and painless.

I am definitely on the fence when it comes to Euthanasia. My concern
is that it would morph from a decision made by an individual for
reasons of his own to a decision made by others. A person with a
limited life span who decides that checking out is a better choice
than sticking around is one thing - a person whose family (or the
state) decides would be "better off dead" is another thing
altoghether.

At one time, in another administration, I wouldn't have been
concerned that the state would involve themselves in such a decision.
But with the incredible erosion of personal liberties that I've
observed in this administration, I think it's a real danger that some
government official would someday make the decision of who doesn't
deserve to live any longer.

I'd hate to have someone's lifespan influenced by the cost of caring
for them. It's not such a bold leap to consider that if the
government could make the decision for an individual, the government
could be influenced by an insurance company. Heaven knows that
corporations have been in bed with government for a long, long time.

As for the United States being a Christian nation or not, I need only
cite the example of the theocracies in the Middle East. Invariably,
a state religion allows zealots to gain power, which curtails the
freedoms of everyone, under the concept that the will of God demands
it. I greatly prefer the separation of church and state, which allows
the people to choose for themselves.

Kathy N-V

I completely respect any religion that brings joy to my fellow human beings. I
myself do not keep faith in the Christian manner--I am, using a simplified
word, pagan to my roots. However, I do enjoy learning about all the different
religions in this world, and sharing the things I know about my own.

But when I come to my beading newsgroup and see scripture being quoted line for
line, I know it's time to killfile the thread. It's just not something I
expect or want, really, to see in RCB. Just my opinion, and not directed at a
person, just a thread.

Majorly snipped from Karleen:

John 14:1-7 [NIV]
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my
Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I
am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place
for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be
where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we
know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to
the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my
Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."


~Candace~
Orphan Beads Low cost and bartering for the financially challenged beader
http://snipurl.com/6s4t

Karleen/Vibrant Jewels wrote:



Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to
the Father except through me.

Ah. I misremembered. If I believed that the Bible was
the inerrant word of God, I'd have a real problem with
this.

Lisa

And if he were the Son Of God, I think it would apply even more that he
would not be a selfish being.

Tina


"Dr. Sooz" wrote in message
...
She went on to say the Jesus said "I am the (only)
way." I told her I couldn't believe that. That Jesus would not be so
self-centered.

WOW! Yes! Exactly! Jesus was a GREAT TEACHER. I just don't happen to
believe he was the son of God, except that we all are the children of the
Deity.
~~
Sooz