Very OT - Fahrenheit 9/11

As stated before no one has the right to use someone else's body against
their will. Therefore, when a fetus becomes a person is irrelevant.

--
There are no mistakes, only unexplored techniques

"Karleen/Vibrant Jewels" wrote in
message ink.net...
What would be an objective measure in your opinion for when our rights
begin?

--
Karleen Page/Vibrant Jewels
Vibrant Jewels Online Bead & Jewelry Store
http://www.vibrantjewels.com/jewelry/welcome.htm
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"vj" wrote in message
...
vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Karleen/Vibrant Jewels"
:

]This is when humanness begins, and when our
]inherent rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,
]begin.

sorry - that's OPINION.
yours.
not necessarily everyone's.
and not a concept in law, but in religion.


-----------
@vicki [SnuggleWench]
(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
newest creations: http://www.vickijean.com/new.html
-----------
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

I just want heaven to have a bead store.
Roxan
"Kaytee" wrote in message
...
In article . net,
"Karleen/Vibrant Jewels" writes:

" I
am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a
place
for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be
where I am. ... No one comes to
the Father except through me".

Sounds a bit like some of the Buddhist sutras.... However, the sutras tell
of
MANY "buddha lands", each with its own entry requirements. Obviously, to
get
past St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, one should study and apply Christian
doctrine to one's life. Fully. To the best of ones understanding and
ability.

However, if one is not interested in treading streets paved with gold,
other
paths can lead to the Summerlands, Xanadu, Shangra-la, Valhalla, the Pure
Land,
or whatever else you conceive of as Paradise. Just follow the "rules of
the
road" you choose.

And, when you no longer need a road, you will have reached Nirvana....


Kaytee
"Simplexities" on
www.eclecticbeadery.com

Not trying to stir anything up at all but I do have a question about all
of this abortion rights talk. I'll preface it with saying that I
actually have a quandary and the problem is beyond my grasp. I can see
the need for abortion in some cases, I believe in life and would prefer
adoption, and my actual preference is abstention if procreation is
undesirable. In California we currently have a criminal case where one
is being accused of murder of an unborn fetus while the government
permits abortion. I have a hard time understanding the logic. Does it
mean that it is okay if one terminates a life if one possesses a license
to heal and under government auspices while an independent who
terminates an un born life is a murderer? How can this be reconciled? I
really can't reconcile it in my mind. The guy who committed the murder
(being tried for two, fetus and mother) if guilty should not ever be in
a position to kill again.

Regards,
Charles

Regards,
Charles

Dr. Sooz wrote:

This is when humanness begins, and when our
inherent rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,
begin.


But it's an argument about LIFE, not HUMANNESS.


This happened to the
Jews and other "undesirables" in Nazi Germany, this is what happened to
blacks in this country during the slavery period, this is what has happened
to fetuses since 1971,


Oh dear god. PLONK
~~
Sooz

Why is ok to talk about religion on this board and not politics???
Patti

I think it all comes down to the right to chose. Lacy Peterson didn't chose
to abort her child. That is what make this murder. And for those of us who
believe in the right to chose, doesn't mean we wouldn't like to see as many
adoptions instead of abortion. No man will ever know how difficult the
choice is for women and no man should ever chose for her either. It is her
right along.
Roxan
"Charles A Peavey" wrote in message
...
Not trying to stir anything up at all but I do have a question about all
of this abortion rights talk. I'll preface it with saying that I
actually have a quandary and the problem is beyond my grasp. I can see
the need for abortion in some cases, I believe in life and would prefer
adoption, and my actual preference is abstention if procreation is
undesirable. In California we currently have a criminal case where one
is being accused of murder of an unborn fetus while the government
permits abortion. I have a hard time understanding the logic. Does it
mean that it is okay if one terminates a life if one possesses a license
to heal and under government auspices while an independent who
terminates an un born life is a murderer? How can this be reconciled? I
really can't reconcile it in my mind. The guy who committed the murder
(being tried for two, fetus and mother) if guilty should not ever be in
a position to kill again.

Regards,
Charles

Regards,
Charles

Dr. Sooz wrote:

This is when humanness begins, and when our
inherent rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,
begin.


But it's an argument about LIFE, not HUMANNESS.


This happened to the
Jews and other "undesirables" in Nazi Germany, this is what happened to
blacks in this country during the slavery period, this is what has
happened
to fetuses since 1971,


Oh dear god. PLONK
~~
Sooz

If you guys are talking about Lacy, then I agree that it was murder. She
was happy to be pregnant and I believe she was carrying to full term. I
agree with Roxan that I would like to see adoption than abortion as well.
However there are tons of children that need homes that will always be in
the system. Or they will be in the system for years and finally get adopted
like my sister. Children's Homes suck big time and I hated every time I was
in one during my young life. If I had the choice of my sister and I being
born to our mother and then being in different homes (minus my grandparents)
then I wish my mother could have aborted me at the time. She was never
ready to be a mother or a friend and didn't have the option when I came
along. Thank God for my grandparents who wanted to raise me but not
everyone is so lucky.

--
Starlia Klopman
www.klopmanstudios.com


"roxan" wrote in message
...
I think it all comes down to the right to chose. Lacy Peterson didn't
chose
to abort her child. That is what make this murder. And for those of us who
believe in the right to chose, doesn't mean we wouldn't like to see as
many
adoptions instead of abortion. No man will ever know how difficult the
choice is for women and no man should ever chose for her either. It is her
right along.
Roxan
"Charles A Peavey" wrote in message
...
Not trying to stir anything up at all but I do have a question about all
of this abortion rights talk. I'll preface it with saying that I
actually have a quandary and the problem is beyond my grasp. I can see
the need for abortion in some cases, I believe in life and would prefer
adoption, and my actual preference is abstention if procreation is
undesirable. In California we currently have a criminal case where one
is being accused of murder of an unborn fetus while the government
permits abortion. I have a hard time understanding the logic. Does it
mean that it is okay if one terminates a life if one possesses a license
to heal and under government auspices while an independent who
terminates an un born life is a murderer? How can this be reconciled? I
really can't reconcile it in my mind. The guy who committed the murder
(being tried for two, fetus and mother) if guilty should not ever be in
a position to kill again.

Regards,
Charles

Regards,
Charles

Dr. Sooz wrote:

This is when humanness begins, and when our
inherent rights, including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,
begin.


But it's an argument about LIFE, not HUMANNESS.


This happened to the
Jews and other "undesirables" in Nazi Germany, this is what happened
to
blacks in this country during the slavery period, this is what has
happened
to fetuses since 1971,


Oh dear god. PLONK
~~
Sooz

I think most of societies "breakdown" is from 1) the difference in
privileges given to the haves and have nots in this country, 2) the over
interpretation of laws and morals, and 3) the marketing done in this country
that teaches dissatisfaction. Much of which is the result of the unbalance
of an overly patriarchal society.

Tina


"Karleen/Vibrant Jewels" wrote ...


The problem we are having today in our society, in my opinion, is due to a
total breakdown in traditional morals, whether you believe they are/were
Christian in origin or character or not, we have a real problem on many
levels today. There is no point in people of faith fighting with each
other
over dogma, the real question is, how can we cooperatively make our shared
country better?

Beadseeker wrote:
Why is ok to talk about religion on this board and not politics???

Politics is even more illogical than religion. Some folks have already
kill-filed this thread because they don't want to talk about religion,
either.

Having one's deeply-held personal views on either religion or politics
discussed makes some people very uncomfortable. Either they can't
articulate their views or they don't want them challeged.

Your mileage may vary.

Honestly, if I could find a message board, forum or newsgroup in which I
could discuss religion without intruding on another topic (and one that
wasn't overrun by spammers and trolls) I would certainly take this
discussion there in a minute.

Arondelle
--
================================================== =========
To email me, empty the pond with a net

"Louis Cage" wrote in message
...
As stated before no one has the right to use someone else's body against
their will. Therefore, when a fetus becomes a person is irrelevant.

I do think you've struck on the only valid biological argument FOR abortion.
That an unborn child is a parasite who lives in his/her mother's body for
the purposes of survival until he/she is able to live outside the womb. Of
course if this reasoning is used, it follows that ALL pregnancies are
parasitical infections and should be aborted to perserve the health of the
mother in every case. In fact, it would be a public health matter, similar
to an outbreak of tapeworms or some other noxious affliction.

The stupidity of this position should be clear, I hope. And your contention
that a fetus "uses someone else's body against their will" certainly gives
the fetus motive, purpose, and the ability to facilitate that purpose, which
looks like personhold, humanness, or life to me. On the other hand, if the
fetus is in the position of having someone use his/her body against his/her
will by ending his/her life, then abortion is wrong in every case. The
parasitical argument however was not the reasoning behind Roe v. Wade.

I'm not stupid, you know. I do know the difference between the US
Constitution and whatever constitution or basis of law the Nazis had. But
the relegating of undesirables to subhuman status in Nazi Germany is the
same as Roe v. Wade. As was the relegating of blacks to subhuman status as
slaves/property. As was the relegating of women to the status of property
early in US history as you pointed out yourself. As was the relegation of
Native Americans to subhuman status (of which I am well aware since I am
Native American). And as will be the relegating of undesirables to subhuman
status if euthanasia becomes legal.

You stated: "There will not be any kind of wholesale rounding up of persons
to be euthanised on the order of Nazi Germany or slavery or removal of
indigenous Americans to reservations which you neglected to mention)."

50 million aborted fetuses .... who'd have thought in 1971 that the
slaughter would be so extensive? It trumps the 6 million Jews and 5 million
non-Jews that the Nazis caused to be killed. It trumps the number of slaves
who were in bondage, mistreated, and died without freedom. It trumps even
the 4,000 Native Americans who died on the Trail of Tears. In fact, it
trumps any modern tragedy or disaster that I can think of.

You said : "I will side with personal freedom over government intervention
in my life any day."

Don't you see how hypocritical this is? Your position has denied personal
freedom to 50 million unborn children because of the governmental
intervention of Roe v. Wade... is this the side you are on?
--
Karleen Page/Vibrant Jewels
Vibrant Jewels Online Bead & Jewelry Store
http://www.vibrantjewels.com/jewelry/welcome.htm
JustBead Auctions
http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=21770
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it?" Ben
Franklin, letter to Thomas Paine

So if the unborn child is WANTED, killing the child is murder.

But if the unborn child is UNwanted, aborting the child is OK.

So the unborn child's right to life depends on the mood of the mother when
she finds out she's pregnant?

What other right do we have that depends on someone else's mood or attitude
to detemine whether we deserve it or not? Since when does our right to life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness depend on whether someone else wants us
to have those rights?
--
Karleen Page/Vibrant Jewels
Vibrant Jewels Online Bead & Jewelry Store
http://www.vibrantjewels.com/jewelry/welcome.htm
JustBead Auctions
http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=21770
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it?" Ben
Franklin, letter to Thomas Paine
"vj" wrote in message
...
vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Charles A Peavey
:

]In California we currently have a criminal case where one
]is being accused of murder of an unborn fetus while the government
]permits abortion. I have a hard time understanding the logic.

Probably because Lacy WANTED her child. And it COULD have survived.
but they ARE on shaky ground.


-----------
@vicki [SnuggleWench]
(Books) http://www.booksnbytes.com
newest creations: http://www.vickijean.com/new.html
-----------
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.