Semi-OT - forum censorship

I did - quite awhile ago, though. I never got a response.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

Has anyone told the top dog how they feel? Have you gone to the owner and
said "I think you should be more honest"? Maybe someone should.

Personally I love the wearable arts section and I don't have a problem
with
any of their practices, but that's just me.

Charlie.

"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
...
Charlie - I think you're misreading. A for profit organization isn't in
business just to pay their own costs. They are in business to make
money
above and beyond the costs.
Wet Canvas used to be not-for-profit - they used to ask for donations
and
advertising dollars just to pay their own costs.

All of that is fine. But WC still masks itself as a not for profit.
They
still ask for donations (memberships) with the reason that they need to
pay
for their website - when in reality, they are now in business to make
money
above and beyond. I just can't support that.

They censor based on advertising now - and they break their own rules
every
single day. Their moderation team plays favorites in the Glass Art
section,
most certainly. (One example - there's been a thread up with a link to
a
thread on ISBG for several days, but they are removing links to AGF as
fast
as they possibly can. There are many more examples of this, not just
links,
but they have favorite members as well.)

WC used to be just fine. But about a year ago, rules began to change
left
and right - most of them to increase their profits. Yes, change is
always
inevitable. But change for the worse is not something I personally can
get
behind.

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net

I agree with you, personal messages should not be censored, but I
haven't
yet experienced any of the censoring on the wearable arts board.

What I don't agree with, is the people who say you shouldn't go there
because it's a "for profit" organisation. The person who started the
site
had a great idea. Somewhere for ALL artists to go. How cool is that?
The
massive cost of the servers and the bandwidth and the sheer time it
would
take to set up and programme those forums is serious money! I think
it's
great that they sell advertising rather than just go bust and
disappear.
I
bet that the person running it doesn't make any decent amount of money
from
that website. Every page anyone views on wet canvas costs someone
money.
Why shouldn't they either charge the user or sell advertising to pay
for
those costs? We also know the ridiculous costs of just keeping an
artist
website running. Multiply that cost by thousands.

(Not an attack on Kalera, just fed up of people thinking that they
should
get everything for free).

Charlie.

"Kalera Stratton" wrote in message
...
I have recently found out that Wetcanvas is actively censoring
certain
links (to other forums) out of private messages between users... and
this really upsets me. I personally have made furthering accurate
information about lampworking one of my core values, and it breaks
my
heart to see a popular company that actively seeks to "protect" its
customers from other sources of information. WC is now a for-profit
company, and profit has for some time gradually been rising over the
sharing of information as their primary goal.

I can't talk about this freely on WC, so I am talking about it
freely
here, since I don't run the risk of censorship and this is a
completely
uninvolved place. I'm really, really upset about this; although I
had
some time ago made the decision not to post any tutorials to WC (I
am
not giving a profit-seeking company my hard work for free) and have
been
wavering on the decision of whether to advertise with them. Well,
that
decision is made; my dollars go elsewhere. I spend over $2000/yr on
advertising and not a penny of it will go to them... meanwhile, I
WILL
be contributing, financially and otherwise, to not-for-profit forums
like www.Artglassforum.com and www.ISGB.org, not to mention putting
my
body and voice in places where I think I can make a difference, like
here.

--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com

It is interesting how you only respect those that agree with what you have
to say. Why is what moonraker has to say unreasonable? Is it that you don't
like the message so you wish to kill the messenger? Your childish attempt at
censorship is no different than what is being criticized in this thread.

You know, moonraker, on rec.crafts.glass, we have learned to ignore your
brutish behavior - I usually just stop reading a thread once you come on.
Seems like a reasonable discussion to me. I wonder how many people just
skip out on rec.crafts.glass after encountering your "contributions"?
Mike Firth

Hey beaders from the newsgroup, look at it this way, maybe moonraker just
needs a good beadgasm to get him to relax.

Oh and moonie, as far as kissing your ass, only one very tiny problem, you
have to remove your head first.

also we have to wonder if he is a masterbeader or a..................I think
you can follow that thread!

Jim Redden



Beadgasms for all!!!!!!!!
"Kalera Stratton" wrote in message
...
I have recently found out that Wetcanvas is actively censoring certain
links (to other forums) out of private messages between users... and this
really upsets me. I personally have made furthering accurate information
about lampworking one of my core values, and it breaks my heart to see a
popular company that actively seeks to "protect" its customers from other
sources of information. WC is now a for-profit company, and profit has for
some time gradually been rising over the sharing of information as their
primary goal.

I can't talk about this freely on WC, so I am talking about it freely
here, since I don't run the risk of censorship and this is a completely
uninvolved place. I'm really, really upset about this; although I had some
time ago made the decision not to post any tutorials to WC (I am not
giving a profit-seeking company my hard work for free) and have been
wavering on the decision of whether to advertise with them. Well, that
decision is made; my dollars go elsewhere. I spend over $2000/yr on
advertising and not a penny of it will go to them... meanwhile, I WILL be
contributing, financially and otherwise, to not-for-profit forums like
www.Artglassforum.com and www.ISGB.org, not to mention putting my body and
voice in places where I think I can make a difference, like here.

--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com

In article ,
Henry Halem wrote:

It is interesting how you only respect those that agree with what you have
to say. Why is what moonraker has to say unreasonable? Is it that you don't
like the message so you wish to kill the messenger? Your childish attempt at
censorship is no different than what is being criticized in this thread.

You know, moonraker, on rec.crafts.glass, we have learned to ignore your
brutish behavior - I usually just stop reading a thread once you come on.
Seems like a reasonable discussion to me. I wonder how many people just
skip out on rec.crafts.glass after encountering your "contributions"?

Moonraker was not unreasonable. He was rude. If you're rude, sometimes
people call attention to your behavior. I usually don't bother, since
most people have a hard time admitting that their behavior could be
anything but good, and everyone has a bad day now and then anyway. But
it is NOT necessarily rude to complain about someone's behavior.

I saw nothing in particular that was objectionable about Mike's
comment in view of the messages he was commenting on.

Mike Beede

Dear Jim, thanks for giving me a giggle first thing on a snowy April
morning in UK.

I must say I smile every time I see WC written down.

In Uk it means water closet and is often found written on lavatory
doors.

Then I get thinking of a childhood rhyme I know. Our sit-up-on used to
be right at the top of the garden, a tuppenny bus ride away and a mile
to run with crossed legs.

The rhyme is this.

Ole King Cole was a merry old soul,
And a merry old soul was he.
He called for a light in the middle of the night.
To go to the WC.
The light shone on the closet door,
The candle had a fit
And Ole King Cole fell down the hole
And swallowed a lump of ****.

It is amazing how we can remember childish rhymes may years on.
Shirley






In message , Jim Redden
writes
Hey beaders from the newsgroup, look at it this way, maybe moonraker just
needs a good beadgasm to get him to relax.

Oh and moonie, as far as kissing your ass, only one very tiny problem, you
have to remove your head first.

also we have to wonder if he is a masterbeader or a..................I think
you can follow that thread!

Jim Redden



Beadgasms for all!!!!!!!!
"Kalera Stratton" wrote in message
...
I have recently found out that Wetcanvas is actively censoring certain
links (to other forums) out of private messages between users... and this
really upsets me. I personally have made furthering accurate information
about lampworking one of my core values, and it breaks my heart to see a
popular company that actively seeks to "protect" its customers from other
sources of information. WC is now a for-profit company, and profit has for
some time gradually been rising over the sharing of information as their
primary goal.

I can't talk about this freely on WC, so I am talking about it freely
here, since I don't run the risk of censorship and this is a completely
uninvolved place. I'm really, really upset about this; although I had some
time ago made the decision not to post any tutorials to WC (I am not
giving a profit-seeking company my hard work for free) and have been
wavering on the decision of whether to advertise with them. Well, that
decision is made; my dollars go elsewhere. I spend over $2000/yr on
advertising and not a penny of it will go to them... meanwhile, I WILL be
contributing, financially and otherwise, to not-for-profit forums like
www.Artglassforum.com and www.ISGB.org, not to mention putting my body and
voice in places where I think I can make a difference, like here.

--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com



--
Shirley Shone

I think you're missing the point.

They have every right to make a profit; in fact, I applaud the service
they aim to provide, and have been considering giving them my business
by advertising with them. Likwise, I have every right to take my cash
business elsewhere if I so choose, and to state my feelings publicly in
relevant forums. Since WC has a "glass" area and is not restricted to
beads, and since I am a contributing subscriber to RCG, I thought I'd
post my thoughts here, too. Anyone who doesn't like the way a company is
doing business is free to complain; sometimes complaining even induces
positive change in the company. It's called "market pressure".

You have every right to your opinions. You even have the right to tell
me to shut up about mine, but there's no reason I should. You have the
right to never use copper foil, and you have the right to tell other
people that they shouldn't use it either, but that doesn't mean anyone
is listening. Would you like it if they tell you to STFU and take your
anti-foil whining back to the lead-came forum where it belongs?

Oh, I do run a free forum on my own server, BTW. It doesn't in any way
compete with WC, nor is it one of the ones censored.

You seem to take pride in being nasty, useless and abrasive. Good for
you; everyone has to get their sense of self-esteem somewhere.

Moonraker wrote:
Oh, boo hoo.

Geez. It's "their" website/forum. They can do what they want, including
making a friggin' profit, banning fools, and monitoring content!

One nice thing about the internet is that there is no shortage of domain
names and web servers. You don't like somebody's website or forum? Start
yer own with yer own precious "core values", already. Let's see how long
YOU remain non-profit and altruistic.

You need to get a life if some forum has you "really, really upset". It's
a simple solution: Just don't go there any more.






"Kalera Stratton" wrote in message
...

I have recently found out that Wetcanvas is actively censoring certain
links (to other forums) out of private messages between users... and
this really upsets me. I personally have made furthering accurate
information about lampworking one of my core values, and it breaks my
heart to see a popular company that actively seeks to "protect" its
customers from other sources of information. WC is now a for-profit
company, and profit has for some time gradually been rising over the
sharing of information as their primary goal.

I can't talk about this freely on WC, so I am talking about it freely
here, since I don't run the risk of censorship and this is a completely
uninvolved place. I'm really, really upset about this; although I had
some time ago made the decision not to post any tutorials to WC (I am
not giving a profit-seeking company my hard work for free) and have been
wavering on the decision of whether to advertise with them. Well, that
decision is made; my dollars go elsewhere. I spend over $2000/yr on
advertising and not a penny of it will go to them... meanwhile, I WILL
be contributing, financially and otherwise, to not-for-profit forums
like www.Artglassforum.com and www.ISGB.org, not to mention putting my
body and voice in places where I think I can make a difference, like
here.

--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com




--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com

Go sit on a fork.

Moonraker wrote:
If you bead-makers INSIST on discussing this drivel, please remove
rec.crafts.glass from your headings!!!!



"Lara" wrote in message
...

I have to totally agree with you Kandice. I do not feel comfortable over

at

Art Glass Forum. I haven't been in a while, but the people that run that
seem very negative and just want to complain about WC and other sites.
Also, I think, the won't allow certain people from WC to post because they
are not allowed to post at WC because of inappropriate behavior in the

past.

It is all a mess. SIGH, OK, here I am complaining about the compalining,
I'm not much better.

I don't find ISGB elitist, but lately just super slow with very little
postings.

Lara

--

Check out my eBay auctions under user ID: lutrick
Or click on the link: http://snipurl.com/8fa3
"Kandice Seeber" wrote in message
...

Thank you for pointing this out, Kalera - the WC situation has been
bothering me for some time - especially since they still actively ask

for

"donations" from the members to "keep the site going", because it's a
"valuable resource for artists" and it costs a lot to keep the site
operational (beg, beg, beg). That would be fine if they weren't selling
advertisements and vendor forums for profit, and censoring everyone's

posts

for "offending links". I think it's unethical to do both those things.
WC claims to be doing everyone a favor by being available. For Profit
websites aren't doing favors - they are in business to make money. That

in

and of itself is fine, as long as they don't masquerade as a community
service.
I don't like the censorship, and haven't for a long time, because it's
biased based on the whim of the moderation team. They keep telling us

that

they don't play favorites, but in fact, they do. Evidence of that is

pretty

clear, all over the Glass Art boards.
I wouldn't buy advertising there.
I still read the boards and post on a rare occasion, because like it or

not,

that is the place everyone goes to trade information. But I have to

tell

you - if the attitude of the guys who run Art Glass Forum were better, I
would be over there in a flash. But I find them to be almost as one

sided

as the people at WC. As a female beadmaker, I really have never felt

welcome

there. And ISGB is fine, but somewhat elitist, so I am almost afraid to
post there.
As it sits, I am somewhat dissatisfied with many of the forums out

there -

so maybe it's just me. LOL

--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net



I have recently found out that Wetcanvas is actively censoring certain
links (to other forums) out of private messages between users... and
this really upsets me. I personally have made furthering accurate
information about lampworking one of my core values, and it breaks my
heart to see a popular company that actively seeks to "protect" its
customers from other sources of information. WC is now a for-profit
company, and profit has for some time gradually been rising over the
sharing of information as their primary goal.

I can't talk about this freely on WC, so I am talking about it freely
here, since I don't run the risk of censorship and this is a

completely

uninvolved place. I'm really, really upset about this; although I had
some time ago made the decision not to post any tutorials to WC (I am
not giving a profit-seeking company my hard work for free) and have

been

wavering on the decision of whether to advertise with them. Well, that
decision is made; my dollars go elsewhere. I spend over $2000/yr on
advertising and not a penny of it will go to them... meanwhile, I WILL
be contributing, financially and otherwise, to not-for-profit forums
like www.Artglassforum.com and www.ISGB.org, not to mention putting my
body and voice in places where I think I can make a difference, like
here.

--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com






--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com

Some people there are abrasive... and because there are so few posters
overall, they are more noticeable. However, a nice little community is
growing, including a few marblemakers, coldworkers and a blower or two.

I find it more friendly there, overall. Yes, people do complain about WC
there... mostly because they aren't allowed to complain about WC on WC.
Sometimes people have to present their ONE TRUE AND ONLY RIGHT WAY...
well, yes, that's a bit pompous, but you have to laugh at it! There is
one poster in particular who is abrasive, but for some reason, I must
confess, I like him a great deal anyway. For that matter, I like
everyone there, having got to know them.

Guido listens if you make suggestions. I like that.

The WC people who were banned were not banned in retaliation for the AGF
mods being banned, but actually were banned because they came to AGF
and started posting in outright abusive ways. Those posts were
deleted... I disagree with Guido's decision to delete them AND to ban
the WC mods, because I felt that the posts spoke for themselves.
However, I felt he was well within his right to do so, just as I have
always agreed that WC was within bounds of reason to delete abusive
posts there.

BTW, Netiquette guy; you have a point, and I try to switch to
bottom-posting when I post on RCG. However, NGs sometimes create their
own Netiquette, and the reply style preferred by most on RCB is
top-posting. I am following that convention in this thread out of
deference for my homies. Also, until I find someone who can mod
Thunderbird to allow sidebar-posting, to annoy the maximum number of
users and glean an optimum "shut up!" and "WTFDYTYA?" rate.

Kandice Seeber wrote:
Okay, I have done some thinking about AGF specifically, and since it's been
quite awhile since I have posted or read that board, I am willing to concede
the possibility that things have changed for the better since I have been
there. And I apologize for being a little abrasive about it - I should
change the post below to say that I feel *some* people there are one-sided.
I still think that. There are some people at AGF that I really don't like.
But Kalera vouches for the forum as a whole, and I truly respect her and her
opinions, so I am going to try it again. Hopefully I will have better luck
this time.


--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com

Likewise.

Kandice Seeber wrote:
I did - quite awhile ago, though. I never got a response.


--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com

LOL Jim!

Jim Redden wrote:
Hey beaders from the newsgroup, look at it this way, maybe moonraker just
needs a good beadgasm to get him to relax.

Oh and moonie, as far as kissing your ass, only one very tiny problem, you
have to remove your head first.

also we have to wonder if he is a masterbeader or a..................I think
you can follow that thread!

Jim Redden



Beadgasms for all!!!!!!!!
"Kalera Stratton" wrote in message
...

I have recently found out that Wetcanvas is actively censoring certain
links (to other forums) out of private messages between users... and this
really upsets me. I personally have made furthering accurate information
about lampworking one of my core values, and it breaks my heart to see a
popular company that actively seeks to "protect" its customers from other
sources of information. WC is now a for-profit company, and profit has for
some time gradually been rising over the sharing of information as their
primary goal.

I can't talk about this freely on WC, so I am talking about it freely
here, since I don't run the risk of censorship and this is a completely
uninvolved place. I'm really, really upset about this; although I had some
time ago made the decision not to post any tutorials to WC (I am not
giving a profit-seeking company my hard work for free) and have been
wavering on the decision of whether to advertise with them. Well, that
decision is made; my dollars go elsewhere. I spend over $2000/yr on
advertising and not a penny of it will go to them... meanwhile, I WILL be
contributing, financially and otherwise, to not-for-profit forums like
www.Artglassforum.com and www.ISGB.org, not to mention putting my body and
voice in places where I think I can make a difference, like here.

--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com




--
-Kalera
http://www.beadwife.com