OT - Frustrated Mom needs some advice! (Kinda Long)

First of, please know that I am speaking from frustration here, so please
excuse my tones & ramblings. I don't really have anyone here I can discuss
this with. I'm hoping some of the more experienced moms out there can
provide me with some clues.

Some of you might remember that I lost my younger sis 4+ years ago to AML.
We (DH, twin sons & I) are raising her youngest daughter, who is just 6 1/2.
She has been with us since she was 20 months old, about 2 weeks before my
sister passed. Her time with my sis was sporatic at best, since sis was in
and out of the hospital, working, (partying), etc. (Sis would not even admit
that she was expecting to her other children and the extended family did not
find out about the baby until sis got sick.) I know that the baby spent a
lot of her time, from 14mos to 20mos, bouncing around with various
caregivers, some questionable, before my sis asked/allowed me to step in.
She had several health problems when she came to us, mostly diet related,
since most sitters chose to shove a bottle in her mouth instead of actually
trying to care for her. Her diet consisted of milk (ba-ba's) and she would
eat broccoli & tomatoes. Anyway, that's a whole other story. We have worked
really hard to correct earlier problems, are helping her catch up to age
level reading, school work, etc. She is actually quite bright and is
starting to learn very well in school. She eats like a champ now, for the
most part, but there are still some textural issues. She is physically doing
just fine, healthy, active, etc. (We refer to her as the "Fearless Flyer"
because she will try any physical task without hesitation. The two wheeler
was a piece of cake for her once she decided.)

The real problem I am having is with her behavior. I swear, if given a
choice, this child makes the worst one. It's as if she has no concept of the
truth or being honest, or doing the right thing. She is lying, sneaking,
stealing, it seems at every turn. We can't go more than a few days without
catching her doing something pretty bad. She will lie to me about the most
ridiculous things, like if she had breakfast or not. One morning, she told
me she didn't need to eat before school because she had gotten up while we
were all asleep, eaten breakfast, and gone back to bed! Her story was quite
detailed, elaborate and completely false?! Today, she stashed a little
summer skirt in her backpack and put it on at school - we still have piles
of snow on the ground here and she was sick last week! Last year (at 5), I
had to open her coat many times to make sure she was wearing warm enough
clothes because she tried to leave the house in strappy t-shirts in freezing
weather! I can't imagine a 6 yo trying to wear "belly shirts" to school
either - we had a talk about that also, right before the "too smalls" went
into the giveaway box! At one point, we found out that she had been
"raiding" all of our rooms and personal belongings, stashing our stuff
(including one of the phones!) in her room. She took items like the digital
camera wallet & flash disks, misc small things from the boys, money from DH,
the list was amazing! She was given one day to give everything back and we
kept finding little piles outside of her door. (This was six months ago, at
6 yo!) I don't even know when this stuff was taken because I'm a SAHM and
she is quite well supervised, or so I thought. (She is having a hard time
getting up for school lately and we're beginning to wonder if she is getting
up at night and wandering the house! DH & I have even discussed putting a
video camera in her room!) When we go into a store, I sometimes see her
looking at things in her reach, and then looking around to see who is
watching. I take her hand and lead her away before she gets into anything,
but I'm sure that she would steal things if given the opportunity. Oh, the
list could go on. I feel sick most times with the level of distrust I am
developing for her, but the level of her behavior just doesn't seem to
improve.

I tried having her (and I) talk with a counselor last spring, without much
progress. This counselor dealt mostly with children's grief and loss issues.
We thought maybe she was having issues about losing her mom, because she was
sort of focusing on that. Well, the Dr. had her talk a bit and draw some
pics (which were about happy family stuff), and she considered her to be
just fine. Doc said that there were some definite attachment issues, since
her mom was basically absentee between working and then getting sick. Other
than that, she was supposed to be "adapting" just fine. To the outside
world, she is sweet and cute and adorable, but behind closed doors, I'm
getting very concerned, to say the least! She simply seems to have No
Conscience, which frightens me. If she is this bad at 6, what in the world
is 16 going to be like, or 13 for that matter! When I talk with her about
her behavior, she looks at me like I'm speaking a foreign language! She does
feel the fear of getting caught, but she is not putting that together with
the idea that it means that the choice is wrong. We talk frequently about
listening to her inner voice, that it's trying to tell her that her choices
are not right, but she is not putting them together. Is it too young for her
to have a conscience? My boys never had these types of behaviors! Sure, they
lied once in a while, but they learned their lessons. We, as a family, value
honesty very highly. I can't imagine chosing to lie so often about so
little.

I'm at a loss. On one hand, I made a promise to my dying sister, but on the
other hand, I worry about the long term effects this is/will have on my own
family. My sons don't understand why she acts the way she does and it causes
tons of friction. There is just so much fighting and teasing, some of which
is normal, but add the lying/sneaking/stealing/lack of trust and we turn a
different corner. There are other family members that she could grow up
with, but the best family situation, environment, supervision, examples, and
guidance, are here, with us.

I would appreciate any advice that some of you could provide. I'm thinking
of seeking another counselor for her, but don't know what kind to seek. I
know that my sis had a real problem with reality and truthfulness and it
made her short life (and that of her older children) Very Hard! I don't want
to see the same for this child, but the roads are heading in that direction.
Is this behavior a window into what is to come, or is it something she will
grow out of? Are there things I can be doing to lead her in a more positive
direction? Are there programs for children like this that can turn them
around, or turn on a conscience?

TIA friends of the frame

My heart goes out to you. Please keep looking for counseling for her....and
for your whole family. My first (unprofessional) impression is that she
exhibits sociopathic behavior. No conscience. I'm sure there are others in
the newsgroup who have had training in this area.
You've done a great thing taking her in. I'm so sorry it's so hard.
KJ


"TwinMom" wrote in message
t...
First of, please know that I am speaking from frustration here, so please
excuse my tones & ramblings. I don't really have anyone here I can discuss
this with. I'm hoping some of the more experienced moms out there can
provide me with some clues.

Some of you might remember that I lost my younger sis 4+ years ago to AML.
We (DH, twin sons & I) are raising her youngest daughter, who is just 6
1/2. She has been with us since she was 20 months old, about 2 weeks
before my sister passed. Her time with my sis was sporatic at best, since
sis was in and out of the hospital, working, (partying), etc. (Sis would
not even admit that she was expecting to her other children and the
extended family did not find out about the baby until sis got sick.) I
know that the baby spent a lot of her time, from 14mos to 20mos, bouncing
around with various caregivers, some questionable, before my sis
asked/allowed me to step in. She had several health problems when she came
to us, mostly diet related, since most sitters chose to shove a bottle in
her mouth instead of actually trying to care for her. Her diet consisted
of milk (ba-ba's) and she would eat broccoli & tomatoes. Anyway, that's a
whole other story. We have worked really hard to correct earlier problems,
are helping her catch up to age level reading, school work, etc. She is
actually quite bright and is starting to learn very well in school. She
eats like a champ now, for the most part, but there are still some
textural issues. She is physically doing just fine, healthy, active, etc.
(We refer to her as the "Fearless Flyer" because she will try any physical
task without hesitation. The two wheeler was a piece of cake for her once
she decided.)

The real problem I am having is with her behavior. I swear, if given a
choice, this child makes the worst one. It's as if she has no concept of
the truth or being honest, or doing the right thing. She is lying,
sneaking, stealing, it seems at every turn. We can't go more than a few
days without catching her doing something pretty bad. She will lie to me
about the most ridiculous things, like if she had breakfast or not. One
morning, she told me she didn't need to eat before school because she had
gotten up while we were all asleep, eaten breakfast, and gone back to bed!
Her story was quite detailed, elaborate and completely false?! Today, she
stashed a little summer skirt in her backpack and put it on at school - we
still have piles of snow on the ground here and she was sick last week!
Last year (at 5), I had to open her coat many times to make sure she was
wearing warm enough clothes because she tried to leave the house in
strappy t-shirts in freezing weather! I can't imagine a 6 yo trying to
wear "belly shirts" to school either - we had a talk about that also,
right before the "too smalls" went into the giveaway box! At one point,
we found out that she had been "raiding" all of our rooms and personal
belongings, stashing our stuff (including one of the phones!) in her room.
She took items like the digital camera wallet & flash disks, misc small
things from the boys, money from DH, the list was amazing! She was given
one day to give everything back and we kept finding little piles outside
of her door. (This was six months ago, at 6 yo!) I don't even know when
this stuff was taken because I'm a SAHM and she is quite well supervised,
or so I thought. (She is having a hard time getting up for school lately
and we're beginning to wonder if she is getting up at night and wandering
the house! DH & I have even discussed putting a video camera in her room!)
When we go into a store, I sometimes see her looking at things in her
reach, and then looking around to see who is watching. I take her hand and
lead her away before she gets into anything, but I'm sure that she would
steal things if given the opportunity. Oh, the list could go on. I feel
sick most times with the level of distrust I am developing for her, but
the level of her behavior just doesn't seem to improve.

I tried having her (and I) talk with a counselor last spring, without much
progress. This counselor dealt mostly with children's grief and loss
issues. We thought maybe she was having issues about losing her mom,
because she was sort of focusing on that. Well, the Dr. had her talk a bit
and draw some pics (which were about happy family stuff), and she
considered her to be just fine. Doc said that there were some definite
attachment issues, since her mom was basically absentee between working
and then getting sick. Other than that, she was supposed to be "adapting"
just fine. To the outside world, she is sweet and cute and adorable, but
behind closed doors, I'm getting very concerned, to say the least! She
simply seems to have No Conscience, which frightens me. If she is this bad
at 6, what in the world is 16 going to be like, or 13 for that matter!
When I talk with her about her behavior, she looks at me like I'm speaking
a foreign language! She does feel the fear of getting caught, but she is
not putting that together with the idea that it means that the choice is
wrong. We talk frequently about listening to her inner voice, that it's
trying to tell her that her choices are not right, but she is not putting
them together. Is it too young for her to have a conscience? My boys never
had these types of behaviors! Sure, they lied once in a while, but they
learned their lessons. We, as a family, value honesty very highly. I can't
imagine chosing to lie so often about so little.

I'm at a loss. On one hand, I made a promise to my dying sister, but on
the other hand, I worry about the long term effects this is/will have on
my own family. My sons don't understand why she acts the way she does and
it causes tons of friction. There is just so much fighting and teasing,
some of which is normal, but add the lying/sneaking/stealing/lack of trust
and we turn a different corner. There are other family members that she
could grow up with, but the best family situation, environment,
supervision, examples, and guidance, are here, with us.

I would appreciate any advice that some of you could provide. I'm thinking
of seeking another counselor for her, but don't know what kind to seek. I
know that my sis had a real problem with reality and truthfulness and it
made her short life (and that of her older children) Very Hard! I don't
want to see the same for this child, but the roads are heading in that
direction. Is this behavior a window into what is to come, or is it
something she will grow out of? Are there things I can be doing to lead
her in a more positive direction? Are there programs for children like
this that can turn them around, or turn on a conscience?

TIA friends of the frame

So sorry you are having so many problems. Please do look for another
counselor. All of you need help as a family unit.

--
Mary
http://community.webshots.com/user/mardor1948
"TwinMom" wrote in message
t...
: First of, please know that I am speaking from frustration here, so please
: excuse my tones & ramblings. I don't really have anyone here I can discuss
: this with. I'm hoping some of the more experienced moms out there can
: provide me with some clues.
:
: Some of you might remember that I lost my younger sis 4+ years ago to AML.
: We (DH, twin sons & I) are raising her youngest daughter, who is just 6
1/2.
: She has been with us since she was 20 months old, about 2 weeks before my
: sister passed. Her time with my sis was sporatic at best, since sis was in
: and out of the hospital, working, (partying), etc. (Sis would not even
admit
: that she was expecting to her other children and the extended family did
not
: find out about the baby until sis got sick.) I know that the baby spent a
: lot of her time, from 14mos to 20mos, bouncing around with various
: caregivers, some questionable, before my sis asked/allowed me to step in.
: She had several health problems when she came to us, mostly diet related,
: since most sitters chose to shove a bottle in her mouth instead of
actually
: trying to care for her. Her diet consisted of milk (ba-ba's) and she would
: eat broccoli & tomatoes. Anyway, that's a whole other story. We have
worked
: really hard to correct earlier problems, are helping her catch up to age
: level reading, school work, etc. She is actually quite bright and is
: starting to learn very well in school. She eats like a champ now, for the
: most part, but there are still some textural issues. She is physically
doing
: just fine, healthy, active, etc. (We refer to her as the "Fearless Flyer"
: because she will try any physical task without hesitation. The two wheeler
: was a piece of cake for her once she decided.)
:
: The real problem I am having is with her behavior. I swear, if given a
: choice, this child makes the worst one. It's as if she has no concept of
the
: truth or being honest, or doing the right thing. She is lying, sneaking,
: stealing, it seems at every turn. We can't go more than a few days without
: catching her doing something pretty bad. She will lie to me about the most
: ridiculous things, like if she had breakfast or not. One morning, she told
: me she didn't need to eat before school because she had gotten up while we
: were all asleep, eaten breakfast, and gone back to bed! Her story was
quite
: detailed, elaborate and completely false?! Today, she stashed a little
: summer skirt in her backpack and put it on at school - we still have piles
: of snow on the ground here and she was sick last week! Last year (at 5), I
: had to open her coat many times to make sure she was wearing warm enough
: clothes because she tried to leave the house in strappy t-shirts in
freezing
: weather! I can't imagine a 6 yo trying to wear "belly shirts" to school
: either - we had a talk about that also, right before the "too smalls" went
: into the giveaway box! At one point, we found out that she had been
: "raiding" all of our rooms and personal belongings, stashing our stuff
: (including one of the phones!) in her room. She took items like the
digital
: camera wallet & flash disks, misc small things from the boys, money from
DH,
: the list was amazing! She was given one day to give everything back and we
: kept finding little piles outside of her door. (This was six months ago,
at
: 6 yo!) I don't even know when this stuff was taken because I'm a SAHM and
: she is quite well supervised, or so I thought. (She is having a hard time
: getting up for school lately and we're beginning to wonder if she is
getting
: up at night and wandering the house! DH & I have even discussed putting a
: video camera in her room!) When we go into a store, I sometimes see her
: looking at things in her reach, and then looking around to see who is
: watching. I take her hand and lead her away before she gets into anything,
: but I'm sure that she would steal things if given the opportunity. Oh, the
: list could go on. I feel sick most times with the level of distrust I am
: developing for her, but the level of her behavior just doesn't seem to
: improve.
:
: I tried having her (and I) talk with a counselor last spring, without much
: progress. This counselor dealt mostly with children's grief and loss
issues.
: We thought maybe she was having issues about losing her mom, because she
was
: sort of focusing on that. Well, the Dr. had her talk a bit and draw some
: pics (which were about happy family stuff), and she considered her to be
: just fine. Doc said that there were some definite attachment issues, since
: her mom was basically absentee between working and then getting sick.
Other
: than that, she was supposed to be "adapting" just fine. To the outside
: world, she is sweet and cute and adorable, but behind closed doors, I'm
: getting very concerned, to say the least! She simply seems to have No
: Conscience, which frightens me. If she is this bad at 6, what in the world
: is 16 going to be like, or 13 for that matter! When I talk with her about
: her behavior, she looks at me like I'm speaking a foreign language! She
does
: feel the fear of getting caught, but she is not putting that together with
: the idea that it means that the choice is wrong. We talk frequently about
: listening to her inner voice, that it's trying to tell her that her
choices
: are not right, but she is not putting them together. Is it too young for
her
: to have a conscience? My boys never had these types of behaviors! Sure,
they
: lied once in a while, but they learned their lessons. We, as a family,
value
: honesty very highly. I can't imagine chosing to lie so often about so
: little.
:
: I'm at a loss. On one hand, I made a promise to my dying sister, but on
the
: other hand, I worry about the long term effects this is/will have on my
own
: family. My sons don't understand why she acts the way she does and it
causes
: tons of friction. There is just so much fighting and teasing, some of
which
: is normal, but add the lying/sneaking/stealing/lack of trust and we turn a
: different corner. There are other family members that she could grow up
: with, but the best family situation, environment, supervision, examples,
and
: guidance, are here, with us.
:
: I would appreciate any advice that some of you could provide. I'm thinking
: of seeking another counselor for her, but don't know what kind to seek. I
: know that my sis had a real problem with reality and truthfulness and it
: made her short life (and that of her older children) Very Hard! I don't
want
: to see the same for this child, but the roads are heading in that
direction.
: Is this behavior a window into what is to come, or is it something she
will
: grow out of? Are there things I can be doing to lead her in a more
positive
: direction? Are there programs for children like this that can turn them
: around, or turn on a conscience?
:
: TIA friends of the frame
:
:

First of all - (((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))) to you. You are doing the
right thing.

Now! I see a lot of the same behaviour in some of the kids at school and
having talked greatly with our guidance counsellor, I believe it is an
internal issue for your niece. Whilst she recognises that you guys are her
family now, and she has in all probability, dealt with the loss of her mum,
subconsciously (sp?) she probably fears being rejected/abandoned/orphaned
again.

The taking things is just her way of gaining attention so that you have to
deal with her - she thinks "if I take stuff and they have to talk to /
punish me then I'm still here and they are still here". Also I feel she
will be accumulating "stuff" (doesn't matter what it is) so that she is not
alone - she has things.

All kids try to get out wearing innappropriate clothes (I have 2 DDs who
like to do that).

Whatever you do don't give up on her and shuttle her off - you guys are her
"constant", her stability. Explain to your own kids that niece is going
through a rough patch and is doing some inappropriate things but that she
needs their help. Make them part of the solution so that they know the
situation - don't keep them in the dark ad don't make excuses for her
either.

Perhaps, sit down with her and explain that it's not right to take things
that aren't hers. Say you've noticed her doing it and it's not the done
thing and is there anything you both can do to work it out, or does she need
certain things. For instance "I notce you took the digi-cam bag. That one
belongs to me but if you want to have a camera for yourself you can earn one
through pocket money". Give her something to work towards.

Good luck - it'll be a long road, but with any luck you'll make it.

--
Sharon from Melbourne Australia (Queen of Down Under)
http://www.geocities.com/shazrules/craft.html (takes awhile to load)
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/shazrules/my_photos (same as website but
quicker)
"TwinMom" wrote in message
t...
First of, please know that I am speaking from frustration here, so please
excuse my tones & ramblings. I don't really have anyone here I can discuss
this with. I'm hoping some of the more experienced moms out there can
provide me with some clues.

Some of you might remember that I lost my younger sis 4+ years ago to AML.
We (DH, twin sons & I) are raising her youngest daughter, who is just 6
1/2. She has been with us since she was 20 months old, about 2 weeks
before my sister passed. Her time with my sis was sporatic at best, since
sis was in and out of the hospital, working, (partying), etc. (Sis would
not even admit that she was expecting to her other children and the
extended family did not find out about the baby until sis got sick.) I
know that the baby spent a lot of her time, from 14mos to 20mos, bouncing
around with various caregivers, some questionable, before my sis
asked/allowed me to step in. She had several health problems when she came
to us, mostly diet related, since most sitters chose to shove a bottle in
her mouth instead of actually trying to care for her. Her diet consisted
of milk (ba-ba's) and she would eat broccoli & tomatoes. Anyway, that's a
whole other story. We have worked really hard to correct earlier problems,
are helping her catch up to age level reading, school work, etc. She is
actually quite bright and is starting to learn very well in school. She
eats like a champ now, for the most part, but there are still some
textural issues. She is physically doing just fine, healthy, active, etc.
(We refer to her as the "Fearless Flyer" because she will try any physical
task without hesitation. The two wheeler was a piece of cake for her once
she decided.)

The real problem I am having is with her behavior. I swear, if given a
choice, this child makes the worst one. It's as if she has no concept of
the truth or being honest, or doing the right thing. She is lying,
sneaking, stealing, it seems at every turn. We can't go more than a few
days without catching her doing something pretty bad. She will lie to me
about the most ridiculous things, like if she had breakfast or not. One
morning, she told me she didn't need to eat before school because she had
gotten up while we were all asleep, eaten breakfast, and gone back to bed!
Her story was quite detailed, elaborate and completely false?! Today, she
stashed a little summer skirt in her backpack and put it on at school - we
still have piles of snow on the ground here and she was sick last week!
Last year (at 5), I had to open her coat many times to make sure she was
wearing warm enough clothes because she tried to leave the house in
strappy t-shirts in freezing weather! I can't imagine a 6 yo trying to
wear "belly shirts" to school either - we had a talk about that also,
right before the "too smalls" went into the giveaway box! At one point,
we found out that she had been "raiding" all of our rooms and personal
belongings, stashing our stuff (including one of the phones!) in her room.
She took items like the digital camera wallet & flash disks, misc small
things from the boys, money from DH, the list was amazing! She was given
one day to give everything back and we kept finding little piles outside
of her door. (This was six months ago, at 6 yo!) I don't even know when
this stuff was taken because I'm a SAHM and she is quite well supervised,
or so I thought. (She is having a hard time getting up for school lately
and we're beginning to wonder if she is getting up at night and wandering
the house! DH & I have even discussed putting a video camera in her room!)
When we go into a store, I sometimes see her looking at things in her
reach, and then looking around to see who is watching. I take her hand and
lead her away before she gets into anything, but I'm sure that she would
steal things if given the opportunity. Oh, the list could go on. I feel
sick most times with the level of distrust I am developing for her, but
the level of her behavior just doesn't seem to improve.

I tried having her (and I) talk with a counselor last spring, without much
progress. This counselor dealt mostly with children's grief and loss
issues. We thought maybe she was having issues about losing her mom,
because she was sort of focusing on that. Well, the Dr. had her talk a bit
and draw some pics (which were about happy family stuff), and she
considered her to be just fine. Doc said that there were some definite
attachment issues, since her mom was basically absentee between working
and then getting sick. Other than that, she was supposed to be "adapting"
just fine. To the outside world, she is sweet and cute and adorable, but
behind closed doors, I'm getting very concerned, to say the least! She
simply seems to have No Conscience, which frightens me. If she is this bad
at 6, what in the world is 16 going to be like, or 13 for that matter!
When I talk with her about her behavior, she looks at me like I'm speaking
a foreign language! She does feel the fear of getting caught, but she is
not putting that together with the idea that it means that the choice is
wrong. We talk frequently about listening to her inner voice, that it's
trying to tell her that her choices are not right, but she is not putting
them together. Is it too young for her to have a conscience? My boys never
had these types of behaviors! Sure, they lied once in a while, but they
learned their lessons. We, as a family, value honesty very highly. I can't
imagine chosing to lie so often about so little.

I'm at a loss. On one hand, I made a promise to my dying sister, but on
the other hand, I worry about the long term effects this is/will have on
my own family. My sons don't understand why she acts the way she does and
it causes tons of friction. There is just so much fighting and teasing,
some of which is normal, but add the lying/sneaking/stealing/lack of trust
and we turn a different corner. There are other family members that she
could grow up with, but the best family situation, environment,
supervision, examples, and guidance, are here, with us.

I would appreciate any advice that some of you could provide. I'm thinking
of seeking another counselor for her, but don't know what kind to seek. I
know that my sis had a real problem with reality and truthfulness and it
made her short life (and that of her older children) Very Hard! I don't
want to see the same for this child, but the roads are heading in that
direction. Is this behavior a window into what is to come, or is it
something she will grow out of? Are there things I can be doing to lead
her in a more positive direction? Are there programs for children like
this that can turn them around, or turn on a conscience?

TIA friends of the frame

From what you write, this young girl sounds like a survivor.
No one respected her boundaries and so now she does
not have any boundaries, respect for others. I would look
for a therapist who deals with childhood abuse in young
children. People "stole" from her and so now she is stealing
in an effort to "take back" that which was taken from her.
You, too, should seek counseling so that her, yours and
other family members can all work together and learn to
work as a unit filled with love and understanding. While
I understand your frustration, having her move out of your
home into wherever will only make her life that much worse.

DEM


"TwinMom" wrote in message
t...
First of, please know that I am speaking from frustration here, so please
excuse my tones & ramblings. I don't really have anyone here I can discuss
this with. I'm hoping some of the more experienced moms out there can
provide me with some clues.

Some of you might remember that I lost my younger sis 4+ years ago to AML.
We (DH, twin sons & I) are raising her youngest daughter, who is just 6
1/2. She has been with us since she was 20 months old, about 2 weeks
before my sister passed. Her time with my sis was sporatic at best, since
sis was in and out of the hospital, working, (partying), etc. (Sis would
not even admit that she was expecting to her other children and the
extended family did not find out about the baby until sis got sick.) I
know that the baby spent a lot of her time, from 14mos to 20mos, bouncing
around with various caregivers, some questionable, before my sis
asked/allowed me to step in. She had several health problems when she came
to us, mostly diet related, since most sitters chose to shove a bottle in
her mouth instead of actually trying to care for her. Her diet consisted
of milk (ba-ba's) and she would eat broccoli & tomatoes. Anyway, that's a
whole other story. We have worked really hard to correct earlier problems,
are helping her catch up to age level reading, school work, etc. She is
actually quite bright and is starting to learn very well in school. She
eats like a champ now, for the most part, but there are still some
textural issues. She is physically doing just fine, healthy, active, etc.
(We refer to her as the "Fearless Flyer" because she will try any physical
task without hesitation. The two wheeler was a piece of cake for her once
she decided.)

The real problem I am having is with her behavior. I swear, if given a
choice, this child makes the worst one. It's as if she has no concept of
the truth or being honest, or doing the right thing. She is lying,
sneaking, stealing, it seems at every turn. We can't go more than a few
days without catching her doing something pretty bad. She will lie to me
about the most ridiculous things, like if she had breakfast or not. One
morning, she told me she didn't need to eat before school because she had
gotten up while we were all asleep, eaten breakfast, and gone back to bed!
Her story was quite detailed, elaborate and completely false?! Today, she
stashed a little summer skirt in her backpack and put it on at school - we
still have piles of snow on the ground here and she was sick last week!
Last year (at 5), I had to open her coat many times to make sure she was
wearing warm enough clothes because she tried to leave the house in
strappy t-shirts in freezing weather! I can't imagine a 6 yo trying to
wear "belly shirts" to school either - we had a talk about that also,
right before the "too smalls" went into the giveaway box! At one point,
we found out that she had been "raiding" all of our rooms and personal
belongings, stashing our stuff (including one of the phones!) in her room.
She took items like the digital camera wallet & flash disks, misc small
things from the boys, money from DH, the list was amazing! She was given
one day to give everything back and we kept finding little piles outside
of her door. (This was six months ago, at 6 yo!) I don't even know when
this stuff was taken because I'm a SAHM and she is quite well supervised,
or so I thought. (She is having a hard time getting up for school lately
and we're beginning to wonder if she is getting up at night and wandering
the house! DH & I have even discussed putting a video camera in her room!)
When we go into a store, I sometimes see her looking at things in her
reach, and then looking around to see who is watching. I take her hand and
lead her away before she gets into anything, but I'm sure that she would
steal things if given the opportunity. Oh, the list could go on. I feel
sick most times with the level of distrust I am developing for her, but
the level of her behavior just doesn't seem to improve.

I tried having her (and I) talk with a counselor last spring, without much
progress. This counselor dealt mostly with children's grief and loss
issues. We thought maybe she was having issues about losing her mom,
because she was sort of focusing on that. Well, the Dr. had her talk a bit
and draw some pics (which were about happy family stuff), and she
considered her to be just fine. Doc said that there were some definite
attachment issues, since her mom was basically absentee between working
and then getting sick. Other than that, she was supposed to be "adapting"
just fine. To the outside world, she is sweet and cute and adorable, but
behind closed doors, I'm getting very concerned, to say the least! She
simply seems to have No Conscience, which frightens me. If she is this bad
at 6, what in the world is 16 going to be like, or 13 for that matter!
When I talk with her about her behavior, she looks at me like I'm speaking
a foreign language! She does feel the fear of getting caught, but she is
not putting that together with the idea that it means that the choice is
wrong. We talk frequently about listening to her inner voice, that it's
trying to tell her that her choices are not right, but she is not putting
them together. Is it too young for her to have a conscience? My boys never
had these types of behaviors! Sure, they lied once in a while, but they
learned their lessons. We, as a family, value honesty very highly. I can't
imagine chosing to lie so often about so little.

I'm at a loss. On one hand, I made a promise to my dying sister, but on
the other hand, I worry about the long term effects this is/will have on
my own family. My sons don't understand why she acts the way she does and
it causes tons of friction. There is just so much fighting and teasing,
some of which is normal, but add the lying/sneaking/stealing/lack of trust
and we turn a different corner. There are other family members that she
could grow up with, but the best family situation, environment,
supervision, examples, and guidance, are here, with us.

I would appreciate any advice that some of you could provide. I'm thinking
of seeking another counselor for her, but don't know what kind to seek. I
know that my sis had a real problem with reality and truthfulness and it
made her short life (and that of her older children) Very Hard! I don't
want to see the same for this child, but the roads are heading in that
direction. Is this behavior a window into what is to come, or is it
something she will grow out of? Are there things I can be doing to lead
her in a more positive direction? Are there programs for children like
this that can turn them around, or turn on a conscience?

TIA friends of the frame

Could be reactive attachment disorder -- you really need to seek help from a
child psychiatrist or psychologist.

Elizabeth in Spring, Texas
"TwinMom" wrote in message
t...
First of, please know that I am speaking from frustration here, so please
excuse my tones & ramblings. I don't really have anyone here I can discuss
this with. I'm hoping some of the more experienced moms out there can
provide me with some clues.

Some of you might remember that I lost my younger sis 4+ years ago to AML.
We (DH, twin sons & I) are raising her youngest daughter, who is just 6
1/2. She has been with us since she was 20 months old, about 2 weeks
before my sister passed. Her time with my sis was sporatic at best, since
sis was in and out of the hospital, working, (partying), etc. (Sis would
not even admit that she was expecting to her other children and the
extended family did not find out about the baby until sis got sick.) I
know that the baby spent a lot of her time, from 14mos to 20mos, bouncing
around with various caregivers, some questionable, before my sis
asked/allowed me to step in. She had several health problems when she came
to us, mostly diet related, since most sitters chose to shove a bottle in
her mouth instead of actually trying to care for her. Her diet consisted
of milk (ba-ba's) and she would eat broccoli & tomatoes. Anyway, that's a
whole other story. We have worked really hard to correct earlier problems,
are helping her catch up to age level reading, school work, etc. She is
actually quite bright and is starting to learn very well in school. She
eats like a champ now, for the most part, but there are still some
textural issues. She is physically doing just fine, healthy, active, etc.
(We refer to her as the "Fearless Flyer" because she will try any physical
task without hesitation. The two wheeler was a piece of cake for her once
she decided.)

The real problem I am having is with her behavior. I swear, if given a
choice, this child makes the worst one. It's as if she has no concept of
the truth or being honest, or doing the right thing. She is lying,
sneaking, stealing, it seems at every turn. We can't go more than a few
days without catching her doing something pretty bad. She will lie to me
about the most ridiculous things, like if she had breakfast or not. One
morning, she told me she didn't need to eat before school because she had
gotten up while we were all asleep, eaten breakfast, and gone back to bed!
Her story was quite detailed, elaborate and completely false?! Today, she
stashed a little summer skirt in her backpack and put it on at school - we
still have piles of snow on the ground here and she was sick last week!
Last year (at 5), I had to open her coat many times to make sure she was
wearing warm enough clothes because she tried to leave the house in
strappy t-shirts in freezing weather! I can't imagine a 6 yo trying to
wear "belly shirts" to school either - we had a talk about that also,
right before the "too smalls" went into the giveaway box! At one point,
we found out that she had been "raiding" all of our rooms and personal
belongings, stashing our stuff (including one of the phones!) in her room.
She took items like the digital camera wallet & flash disks, misc small
things from the boys, money from DH, the list was amazing! She was given
one day to give everything back and we kept finding little piles outside
of her door. (This was six months ago, at 6 yo!) I don't even know when
this stuff was taken because I'm a SAHM and she is quite well supervised,
or so I thought. (She is having a hard time getting up for school lately
and we're beginning to wonder if she is getting up at night and wandering
the house! DH & I have even discussed putting a video camera in her room!)
When we go into a store, I sometimes see her looking at things in her
reach, and then looking around to see who is watching. I take her hand and
lead her away before she gets into anything, but I'm sure that she would
steal things if given the opportunity. Oh, the list could go on. I feel
sick most times with the level of distrust I am developing for her, but
the level of her behavior just doesn't seem to improve.

I tried having her (and I) talk with a counselor last spring, without much
progress. This counselor dealt mostly with children's grief and loss
issues. We thought maybe she was having issues about losing her mom,
because she was sort of focusing on that. Well, the Dr. had her talk a bit
and draw some pics (which were about happy family stuff), and she
considered her to be just fine. Doc said that there were some definite
attachment issues, since her mom was basically absentee between working
and then getting sick. Other than that, she was supposed to be "adapting"
just fine. To the outside world, she is sweet and cute and adorable, but
behind closed doors, I'm getting very concerned, to say the least! She
simply seems to have No Conscience, which frightens me. If she is this bad
at 6, what in the world is 16 going to be like, or 13 for that matter!
When I talk with her about her behavior, she looks at me like I'm speaking
a foreign language! She does feel the fear of getting caught, but she is
not putting that together with the idea that it means that the choice is
wrong. We talk frequently about listening to her inner voice, that it's
trying to tell her that her choices are not right, but she is not putting
them together. Is it too young for her to have a conscience? My boys never
had these types of behaviors! Sure, they lied once in a while, but they
learned their lessons. We, as a family, value honesty very highly. I can't
imagine chosing to lie so often about so little.

I'm at a loss. On one hand, I made a promise to my dying sister, but on
the other hand, I worry about the long term effects this is/will have on
my own family. My sons don't understand why she acts the way she does and
it causes tons of friction. There is just so much fighting and teasing,
some of which is normal, but add the lying/sneaking/stealing/lack of trust
and we turn a different corner. There are other family members that she
could grow up with, but the best family situation, environment,
supervision, examples, and guidance, are here, with us.

I would appreciate any advice that some of you could provide. I'm thinking
of seeking another counselor for her, but don't know what kind to seek. I
know that my sis had a real problem with reality and truthfulness and it
made her short life (and that of her older children) Very Hard! I don't
want to see the same for this child, but the roads are heading in that
direction. Is this behavior a window into what is to come, or is it
something she will grow out of? Are there things I can be doing to lead
her in a more positive direction? Are there programs for children like
this that can turn them around, or turn on a conscience?

TIA friends of the frame

Would like to hear what others have to say. I replied privately because
it was just too long, and personal.
Thanx
Joanna
remove quilt to reply

OMG, Elizabeth! I'm in a sort of shell shock here. I didn't realize what a
big deal this disorder really is. I did a little digging into RAD and found
a support website. There are 16 telltale symptoms listed, odd, bizarre
things, and my little girl exhibits 12 of the 16! It's starting to make
sense now. I will pursue this avenue further. Kinda scary, but at least I
see a direction to follow.
Thank you for opening my eyes!

Replied privately

Ginger in CA

I would not say sociopathic as that is one who is the badest of bad now this
is odd... but the sociopaths are the psychos, and the psychopaths are the
guys like Leonardo DiCap`rio in Catch me if you can.... Directly from my
class I just took yesterday lol. Anyhow, as one who works in psychiatry,
for young kids that could be odd (oppositionally defiant disorder) it can
move on the conduct disorder when they reach teen years... but if you look
up ODD you will find ways of treating it., There is stuff that can be
done. Also, look for a new councellor, someone from Mental health, not
psychology. My son wen through a local mental health center and the change
in him is ncredible. He was given the tools he needed to function in life.
He is now in Grade five, near the top of his clas, and his teacher constanly
tells me how he is wonderful (versus all the other years of complains about
the poor guy) Anyhow, my point is some councellors are very useful, some
are not so useful. I work with a guy from Child and Youth mental health,
and we car pool together, I can pick his brain on friday (the next car pool
day) and see what he thinks as I am adult orientated for expereience,
except for two practicum with troubled youth (hence the happy conduct
disorder knowledge)

Carissa


--
http://community.webshots.com/user/Elywyn
Butterflies are not insects, they are
self-propelled flowers.-Heinlein
"KJ" wrote in message
newsRayh.381362$1i1.205252@attbi_s72...
My heart goes out to you. Please keep looking for counseling for
her....and for your whole family. My first (unprofessional) impression is
that she exhibits sociopathic behavior. No conscience. I'm sure there
are others in the newsgroup who have had training in this area.
You've done a great thing taking her in. I'm so sorry it's so hard.
KJ


"TwinMom" wrote in message
t...
First of, please know that I am speaking from frustration here, so please
excuse my tones & ramblings. I don't really have anyone here I can
discuss this with. I'm hoping some of the more experienced moms out there
can provide me with some clues.

Some of you might remember that I lost my younger sis 4+ years ago to
AML. We (DH, twin sons & I) are raising her youngest daughter, who is
just 6 1/2. She has been with us since she was 20 months old, about 2
weeks before my sister passed. Her time with my sis was sporatic at best,
since sis was in and out of the hospital, working, (partying), etc. (Sis
would not even admit that she was expecting to her other children and the
extended family did not find out about the baby until sis got sick.) I
know that the baby spent a lot of her time, from 14mos to 20mos, bouncing
around with various caregivers, some questionable, before my sis
asked/allowed me to step in. She had several health problems when she
came to us, mostly diet related, since most sitters chose to shove a
bottle in her mouth instead of actually trying to care for her. Her diet
consisted of milk (ba-ba's) and she would eat broccoli & tomatoes.
Anyway, that's a whole other story. We have worked really hard to correct
earlier problems, are helping her catch up to age level reading, school
work, etc. She is actually quite bright and is starting to learn very
well in school. She eats like a champ now, for the most part, but there
are still some textural issues. She is physically doing just fine,
healthy, active, etc. (We refer to her as the "Fearless Flyer" because
she will try any physical task without hesitation. The two wheeler was a
piece of cake for her once she decided.)

The real problem I am having is with her behavior. I swear, if given a
choice, this child makes the worst one. It's as if she has no concept of
the truth or being honest, or doing the right thing. She is lying,
sneaking, stealing, it seems at every turn. We can't go more than a few
days without catching her doing something pretty bad. She will lie to me
about the most ridiculous things, like if she had breakfast or not. One
morning, she told me she didn't need to eat before school because she had
gotten up while we were all asleep, eaten breakfast, and gone back to
bed! Her story was quite detailed, elaborate and completely false?!
Today, she stashed a little summer skirt in her backpack and put it on at
school - we still have piles of snow on the ground here and she was sick
last week! Last year (at 5), I had to open her coat many times to make
sure she was wearing warm enough clothes because she tried to leave the
house in strappy t-shirts in freezing weather! I can't imagine a 6 yo
trying to wear "belly shirts" to school either - we had a talk about that
also, right before the "too smalls" went into the giveaway box! At one
point, we found out that she had been "raiding" all of our rooms and
personal belongings, stashing our stuff (including one of the phones!) in
her room. She took items like the digital camera wallet & flash disks,
misc small things from the boys, money from DH, the list was amazing! She
was given one day to give everything back and we kept finding little
piles outside of her door. (This was six months ago, at 6 yo!) I don't
even know when this stuff was taken because I'm a SAHM and she is quite
well supervised, or so I thought. (She is having a hard time getting up
for school lately and we're beginning to wonder if she is getting up at
night and wandering the house! DH & I have even discussed putting a video
camera in her room!) When we go into a store, I sometimes see her looking
at things in her reach, and then looking around to see who is watching. I
take her hand and lead her away before she gets into anything, but I'm
sure that she would steal things if given the opportunity. Oh, the list
could go on. I feel sick most times with the level of distrust I am
developing for her, but the level of her behavior just doesn't seem to
improve.

I tried having her (and I) talk with a counselor last spring, without
much progress. This counselor dealt mostly with children's grief and loss
issues. We thought maybe she was having issues about losing her mom,
because she was sort of focusing on that. Well, the Dr. had her talk a
bit and draw some pics (which were about happy family stuff), and she
considered her to be just fine. Doc said that there were some definite
attachment issues, since her mom was basically absentee between working
and then getting sick. Other than that, she was supposed to be "adapting"
just fine. To the outside world, she is sweet and cute and adorable, but
behind closed doors, I'm getting very concerned, to say the least! She
simply seems to have No Conscience, which frightens me. If she is this
bad at 6, what in the world is 16 going to be like, or 13 for that
matter! When I talk with her about her behavior, she looks at me like I'm
speaking a foreign language! She does feel the fear of getting caught,
but she is not putting that together with the idea that it means that the
choice is wrong. We talk frequently about listening to her inner voice,
that it's trying to tell her that her choices are not right, but she is
not putting them together. Is it too young for her to have a conscience?
My boys never had these types of behaviors! Sure, they lied once in a
while, but they learned their lessons. We, as a family, value honesty
very highly. I can't imagine chosing to lie so often about so little.

I'm at a loss. On one hand, I made a promise to my dying sister, but on
the other hand, I worry about the long term effects this is/will have on
my own family. My sons don't understand why she acts the way she does and
it causes tons of friction. There is just so much fighting and teasing,
some of which is normal, but add the lying/sneaking/stealing/lack of
trust and we turn a different corner. There are other family members that
she could grow up with, but the best family situation, environment,
supervision, examples, and guidance, are here, with us.

I would appreciate any advice that some of you could provide. I'm
thinking of seeking another counselor for her, but don't know what kind
to seek. I know that my sis had a real problem with reality and
truthfulness and it made her short life (and that of her older children)
Very Hard! I don't want to see the same for this child, but the roads are
heading in that direction. Is this behavior a window into what is to
come, or is it something she will grow out of? Are there things I can be
doing to lead her in a more positive direction? Are there programs for
children like this that can turn them around, or turn on a conscience?

TIA friends of the frame